Acquiring Past Lives at Level Cap

[blackdoguk]

I would prefer the idea in post #7 of that thread over the OP's, but the OP clearly is spit balling and not so much married to their implementation as wanting SOMETHING to do at cap.

Yup, lot of wisdom in that post

[Silverleafeon]

I would to see:


Demi-God (insert cool name here) XP overflow system.
This only gains xp when a player would not be able to apply it to leveling up
(or EDs).
Each level gained costs millions, with very minor benefits
{By minor, I mean far less than PLs.}



Sentient Weapons XP benefit system.
Must be equipped to gain xp, requires 10+ million to fully develop.

[BigErkyKid]

How is earning them at one level any freer than earning them at another if that's what one wants to do in a game they choose to pay to play? Here it is, I want to play with what I have earned on my character to earn more on that character. That's something I'm much more willing to pay to be able to do. How is that somehow more wrong than being told I have to re-level to do so? Hell how isn't DDO, itself, an anomaly due to the illogical and non-intuitive way it handles progression.

To me, the whole process seems a way for Turbine to add to the game without actually having to add to the game. I've just never acquired much of a taste for that particular kool-aid.

Because that is precisely what it is. There is some value in having the option to replay the game from a different perspective without feeling you are wasting your time in terms of progression. However, making it the only way to make progress is basically not catering to end gamers. It is Not the only way, but certainly the most obvious one and perhaps even powerful.

The reason why we don't see equivalent or at least similar ways to progress at cap so that you have two attractive options is because it is cheaper to create s grind than to make an engaging and well crafted end game.

[Deadlock]

Spend 2 hours doing 20 runs of new raid when its released.

If your only reason to login is for 2 hours every Update to run a new raid to death so you can then logout again then I would suggest you have bigger problems with the game. Perhaps a longer break would help with the negativity towards the game or maybe it's just time for you to do something else?

Either way, for those of us who still enjoy the game I consider bypasses in their current form to be part of the problem with raid longevity.

[bartharok]

Just wondering, if your toon progresses at cap, are you actually at cap. I mean progress other than gear.

[Deadlock]

All the "I hate people who play at cap and want them to go away" noise making aside I really think it's time for Turbine to throw end gamers a bone.

We must be reading different threads if this is your interpretation of what people who disagree with the OP's proposal are saying.

The lack of things to do at cap is one issue but gaining XP shouldn't be part of it. Adding new high level content with acceptable drop rates that can't be bypassed to death on day one would be a better solution. With the level cap rising to 30, the Production team then have an opportunity to add more "final cap" content. Make the new Reaper difficulty only accessible at cap would be another idea. But allowing you to do all of this while still banking XP for your next life is bad design. Why should we pander to people who want to gain past lives while working on something completely different?

It's not as if past lives are difficult to acquire through normal game play. We don't need to add another bypass system for people who just can't be bothered to play heroic content.

[Deadlock]

The reason why we don't see equivalent or at least similar ways to progress at cap so that you have two attractive options is because it is cheaper to create s grind than to make an engaging and well crafted end game.

Think about what you're saying here. You don't want to TR and play another build through heroic content because it's grind but you want to stay at cap and repeat a smaller subset of Epic quests over and over. But that's not grind.

When you then ask someone why they would want to do one over the other the honest answer often turns out to be "because I can get much more XP and Epic saga rewards doing it one way". The principle of the whole thing is flawed.

I'm all for there being things to do at cap but giving people less reason to reincarnate isn't one of them. The whole reincarnation concept was genius when it was first introduced and fits perfectly with a game which offers such diverse build options as DDO. I would venture that it's probably one of the major reasons why DDO has had such longevity for a lot of us. There is no good reason to add other ways to acquire past lives when we have a perfectly fine mechanic for doing it already in place

EDIT: Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting that levelling in Epics is fine. The lack of any choices when talking to an Epic trainer on a level where you just click Next then Finish is terrible. The lack of any sense of progression that we get with Heroic Enhancements mid-level is for me another negative. Losing your first time XP bonus running an Epic quest you had previously completed on Heroic makes no sense especially when the storyline has advanced and these are essentially new quests in a familiar environment - so much so that I end up skipping quests on Heroic that I will be running on Epic.

Epic levelling is nowhere near perfect but banking XP to bypass it isn't the right solution.

[morkahn82]

I am also thinking of some sort of progressing at lvl cap, like some veteran levels which can only be acquired with very slow pace. But once implemented people will cry that it is too hard to acquire these, turbine will implemented some store bypass and what first is an advantage to keep players busy is just another p2cheat option and players again will cry about the game to easy when they bypassed this.

The problem is once being 28 I am just feeling my character does not progess, I feel the strong urge to tr and not wasting my time at cap.

[Vellrad]

if there is nothing else for you to do in the game besides raid, than yeah, you wouldn't be a target audience to please. longevity of raids makes a player base happier, not being done with a raid within a month and waiting around trying to fill a group for those still looking for raid loot. the only raid that has gotten any real heat with bad design is CITW because of the sp draining, but it was still regularly run up until raiders boxes.

Like I said it might be useful depends on what gets implemented.



That was not my experience before bypass existed, I easily played 4hr a day doing nothing but old epics and raids in those days for months at a time only TR when I felt like a change of pace.

Web was terrbile because of mana drain, fot, mod and fire are terrible because of duration.
The only good raid they released after epic level is deathwyrm, because you can't bypass fest it.
And what is there to do beside raids at cap? Extremally easy EEs you already did while leveling, for gear that either sucks, or is given to you after 2nd or 3rd chain run?

[blackdoguk]

It's not as if past lives are difficult to acquire through normal game play. We don't need to add another bypass system for people who just can't be bothered to play heroic content.

Difficult? Perhaps not. Fun and rewarding? Heroic PLs yes, epic off destiny levelling is anything but.

[Deadlock]

Difficult? Perhaps not. Fun and rewarding? Heroic PLs yes, epic off destiny levelling is anything but.

Then why would you choose to do it? Off destiny levelling is an invention of the playerbase. There's absolutely no need to do it. But still some people do and then complain it's awful.

[Qhualor]

Web was terrbile because of mana drain, fot, mod and fire are terrible because of duration.
The only good raid they released after epic level is deathwyrm, because you can't bypass fest it.
And what is there to do beside raids at cap? Extremally easy EEs you already did while leveling, for gear that either sucks, or is given to you after 2nd or 3rd chain run?

I remember Shroud, VOD, Hound and TOD that could take 30 minutes to an hour. from what I hear, in the early days it was more than an hour. with those kinds of complaints, maybe that's why raids like MOD and DoJ can be completed in short time.

I don't necessarily blame the players for having no end game quests to run after they get their loot and not challenged by them. some of the loot is fairly easy to get and its more common now to see solo/shortman groups running EE content than it was when cap was 20. however, without raid timer bypass, no chest re-rolls, same loot isn't found on normal as elite, a way similar to s/s/s crafting system to upgrade gear and beef up epics more similar to the way old epics used to be than there would be more to do. Turbine needs to be a little tougher on the players if they hope to have any sort of longevity in this game. otherwise, they can continue to do what they have been doing and after a month new content is released, players like you complain there is nothing to do, but see nothing wrong with shortcutting the game to get what they want.

[Qhualor]

Then why would you choose to do it? Off destiny levelling is an invention of the playerbase. There's absolutely no need to do it. But still some people do and then complain it's awful.

because it is awful. its the worst grind in DDO, imo. if you want the best rewards out of destinies, than you

TR into a class that would benefit best from those off destinies. for me, I only like playing melees and I go after those past lives that I feel are worth it. that means im playing barbarian in Magister. painful!

don't TR and suck it up. there are players that don't TR or only do a few or something to that affect.

do it the slow way and use saga xp so you can play the class you want.

don't do it and you have no twists thereby not taking advantage of improving your character.

none of these choices are appealing. destinies and the way the system is designed is not player invention. it is Turbine invention to keep players busy doing something and to make some money.

[blackdoguk]

Then why would you choose to do it? Off destiny levelling is an invention of the playerbase. There's absolutely no need to do it. But still some people do and then complain it's awful.

The same reason you did - the game is intrinsically progression based. Unlike everything pre motu however, class based progression is now tied to tens of millions of xp in opposing roles. Unlike before where (as I do) if somebody wanted to make a melee or caster toon then they could do a lot of those type of lives, now for me to have a high functioning barbarian then I should either:

make peace with running him handicapped, join your group and be knowingly carried
make peace with tring him into something I didn't really want in the first place so I can go go back to barb
make peace with sitting behind you in terms of ability and potential

None of these solutions seems preferable to me.

Don't read this as a matter of entitlement, way back in 2011 I decided that I didn't need completionist feats, but what I thought reasonable then should hold now: characters who wan't to beat up/blow stuff should be able to play those sort of roles and not have to change the ethos of their characters to improve.

I may not agree with OP but a system whereby players are able to gain karma, that they have justly earned by completing quests, is sorely needed. You DM folk IRL, so why wouldn't you grant them xp at the end of a session? I just don't see a need for all that wasted xp, especially when it could be used to encourage people to log in and play the game. Something like that would indeed incentivise more tring/levelling instead of discouraging.

Finally I'm not sure I entirely agree that it's a creation of the playerbase, any more than levelling one's toon was ever an invention on our part.

[Ellihor]

I love the idea. We should be a ble to progress the character without the need to "unprogress". This would help a lot the endgame situation. It's extremly sad the situation were seeing these days. For example, after doing 80 MoDs on my main, I never used the items for more than one quest per life, and now I am not ever going to use most of them because there's new best in slot. This sucks. Personally I belive the Epic Reincarnation should reset only your karma. To balance that could just give a 50% xp penality if you are capped. The iconic and heroic TRs are fine.

For me at leat, end game should be about progression and getting gear. Farming xp is terrible, and going backwards is extremly boring. That is one of the great reasons why the game shined before MotU: most people would TR only to change the build, not to get past lifes.

[Ellihor]

I am also thinking of some sort of progressing at lvl cap, like some veteran levels which can only be acquired with very slow pace.

No please. We don't need more inherent bonuses that you get for being an old player. Adding epic reincarnation was a huge mistake already.

[noinfo]

People always want more for less.

If you want those past lives, do the job to earn them.

They should not come free like this, or any other way people have suggested in the past.

I always love hearing this sort of argument:

Earning the epic past life by playing level 20 to 28 because for some reason its more valid than playing the same amount of time in someone's preferred level space of 28.

The problem is trying to fit all playstyles in. Really when dealing with epic they shouldn't have had past lives but had just cumulative bonuses accruing based on earned xp. if they wanted to be nasty have the base levels reset or disappear on TR, rewarding those only staying at cap. But they didn't. There is nothing more holy about TR or ETR over people wanting progression at end game. It certainly isn't harder, for many it certainly isn't more fun and in no way does it magically mean more because you are playing at those levels. IMO TR is the most immersive breaking thing in game and if I never had to do it and was still able to progress in some other way I certainly would. However unlike those who feel that everyone must run through all the lives because that's the way it should be done I don't feel the need to try and tell people that the game should not reward their favoured playstyles.

Put it this way, why should your triple diversified TR that has run whatever many million xp be anywhere near as good as my toon that has stayed at cap and would have earned more xp in its class?

[noinfo]

because it is awful. its the worst grind in DDO, imo. if you want the best rewards out of destinies, than you

TR into a class that would benefit best from those off destinies. for me, I only like playing melees and I go after those past lives that I feel are worth it. that means im playing barbarian in Magister. painful!

don't TR and suck it up. there are players that don't TR or only do a few or something to that affect.

do it the slow way and use saga xp so you can play the class you want.

don't do it and you have no twists thereby not taking advantage of improving your character.

none of these choices are appealing. destinies and the way the system is designed is not player invention. it is Turbine invention to keep players busy doing something and to make some money.

Why should anyone have to change the basic nature of a character in order to progress it? That is simply one of the worst things that has ever come out of the game. I am all for those people who enjoy TR, but as it stands there should be alternatives to progression by regression inherent in this game, and to avoid creep make it not stack with pastlives or only up to the current maximum that we have.

[noinfo]

Think about what you're saying here. You don't want to TR and play another build through heroic content because it's grind but you want to stay at cap and repeat a smaller subset of Epic quests over and over. But that's not grind.

When you then ask someone why they would want to do one over the other the honest answer often turns out to be "because I can get much more XP and Epic saga rewards doing it one way". The principle of the whole thing is flawed.

I'm all for there being things to do at cap but giving people less reason to reincarnate isn't one of them. The whole reincarnation concept was genius when it was first introduced and fits perfectly with a game which offers such diverse build options as DDO. I would venture that it's probably one of the major reasons why DDO has had such longevity for a lot of us. There is no good reason to add other ways to acquire past lives when we have a perfectly fine mechanic for doing it already in place

EDIT: Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting that levelling in Epics is fine. The lack of any choices when talking to an Epic trainer on a level where you just click Next then Finish is terrible. The lack of any sense of progression that we get with Heroic Enhancements mid-level is for me another negative. Losing your first time XP bonus running an Epic quest you had previously completed on Heroic makes no sense especially when the storyline has advanced and these are essentially new quests in a familiar environment - so much so that I end up skipping quests on Heroic that I will be running on Epic.

Epic levelling is nowhere near perfect but banking XP to bypass it isn't the right solution.

The honest answer is because they prefer playing at that level and style. I know players who prefer heroic. The concept of progression by regression is what is flawed, you can call a new system whatever you want rather than pastlives, having the bonuses worth something so that you can see a clear progression like past lives would be good and is not something that can be just earned "between past lives"

[noinfo]

Just wondering, if your toon progresses at cap, are you actually at cap. I mean progress other than gear.

Level cap does not have to mean development cap. It is one of the worst flaws of the game that has linked progression to regression and releveling. It has created a culture and mindset that after a certain point they expect characters to undergo a TR to "enhance" themselves.