Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Changes

[Gratch]

Agreed.

Sev~

Replace "BLIND" in Head Shot with "KILL". If you want it to be competitive and have something other ranger trees do not.
Alternatively replace "BLIND" with some affect that works on bosses... 10% vulnerability? That would be PRE defining as well.

Also for being a "stalker". One who "stalks" which suggests movement around the prey... this PRE does best when standing still.
Deepwood Stander? Hmmm... what if they could maintain archer's focus while sneaking?

[Kawai]

Yep. I was merely stressing the dire situation on live.

If you also argued this with the Harper Tree consolidating everything with int, then fair enough. I view it as the same concept.

lol DIRE?????
hehehehehehe
tell us, prtty pls, what is this DIRE situation?

If anything, the point requirement via ELFt tree needs incredibly relaxed.
u want DEX=Dmg?
roll an elf.

dire!

heheheeee
OH
WAIT!
--ahhhhhhh here's the ONLY thing DIRE needed atm...
D I R E - T I G E R S
been saying that since day1 (look't up goobers)

hwvr, the last thing this game needs is COOKIE CUTTERS for ALL!

so what if one race can use GRACE where Longbows are concerned?
dun b jelli! build ur own stuff u jerks!

and oh yea, as far as SHURIKINS?
effing PLS!
wasted space in any Ranger tree!
build them their own stoopid tree for the 3 people who use it.

istg! id luv to see someone throw a Shurky as far as an arrow from a bow!
lol
would also luv 2c that same shurky actually hurt something?!
hrmmm
a Major League Pitcher gets handed a shurky in a thick forest.
could he hit a squirrel at anything further than 15 yards?

nooooop

.............

all BS aside. fix Tier 5 & make it worthwhile.

Ssneak is fine @ 1 pt.
it obviously does not need to be as fast as a Rogues.
Rogues hav a job to do after all, & this helps.
makes sense as they've practiced to make it better.
its rough sneaking past mobs fast enough to disarm **** while the zergyboiz are attempting to kill stuff behind ya.

Rangers? as in DEEPWOOD? hav neither the skill nor need to go faster than 50%.
id actually see 40% as fast enough.

.............

want to give these trolls the AA slayer arrow they're crying for?
fine!
-give it to them.
AS IS.
no prob.

HWVR...when AA tree gets done (eta 2018) simply RE-INTRODUCE the ORIGINAL SLAYER ARROW that actually SLAYED without a need for CRITS or ED help.
well, then u would just hav the same 3 people whining they should hav it too! (and it should work on likttle Shurkies no doubt). -head-desk-

.............

last but not least...
adjust Light Armor w/ adding PRR & DODGE. (leaning towards dodge)
prob solved.

[EllisDee37]

lol DIRE?????
hehehehehehe
tell us, prtty pls, what is this DIRE situation?

This:

u want DEX=Dmg?
roll an elf.

In terms of build choices and diversity, that's a dire situation.

(I am unable to comprehend the rest of your post.)

[jakeelala]

Also, strongly agreed about making shirardi the best thrower/longbow/crossbow destiny. For repeating crossbows, use a similar concept as how doubleshot works for repeaters vs non-repeaters.

The best idea mentioned upthread was to incorporate ranges power. Tweak the proc chance (maybe something like 25% base, 10% for repeaters?) and the proc damage and have the proc damage scale with ranged power. Meaning the base proc damage might well end up (signifcantly?) lower than it is on live but even as little as +50 ranged power would bring it up noticeably higher than it is on live. Maybe scales with 200% ranged power?

Then maybe add a crusader zeal type clicky to the last core ability that increases proc chance to 100% for 30 seconds or something, with a 3:00 cooldown. Or whatever numbers work out so that furyshot isn't the no-brainer choice for manyshot.

Other option on my scaling with RP suggestion in Shiradi is to give AA lots of Spell Power boosts and Spell Crit boosts, and then let them scale shiradi procs as a PRE enhancements instead of RP.

That would be a fun flavor twist

[DevilYouKnow]

lol DIRE?????
hehehehehehe
tell us, prtty pls, what is this DIRE situation?

If anything, the point requirement via ELFt tree needs incredibly relaxed.
u want DEX=Dmg?
roll an elf.

dire!

heheheeee
OH
WAIT!
--ahhhhhhh here's the ONLY thing DIRE needed atm...
D I R E - T I G E R S
been saying that since day1 (look't up goobers)

hwvr, the last thing this game needs is COOKIE CUTTERS for ALL!

so what if one race can use GRACE where Longbows are concerned?
dun b jelli! build ur own stuff u jerks!

and oh yea, as far as SHURIKINS?
effing PLS!
wasted space in any Ranger tree!
build them their own stoopid tree for the 3 people who use it.

istg! id luv to see someone throw a Shurky as far as an arrow from a bow!
lol
would also luv 2c that same shurky actually hurt something?!
hrmmm
a Major League Pitcher gets handed a shurky in a thick forest.
could he hit a squirrel at anything further than 15 yards?

nooooop

.............

all BS aside. fix Tier 5 & make it worthwhile.

Ssneak is fine @ 1 pt.
it obviously does not need to be as fast as a Rogues.
Rogues hav a job to do after all, & this helps.
makes sense as they've practiced to make it better.
its rough sneaking past mobs fast enough to disarm **** while the zergyboiz are attempting to kill stuff behind ya.

Rangers? as in DEEPWOOD? hav neither the skill nor need to go faster than 50%.
id actually see 40% as fast enough.

.............

want to give these trolls the AA slayer arrow they're crying for?
fine!
-give it to them.
AS IS.
no prob.

HWVR...when AA tree gets done (eta 2018) simply RE-INTRODUCE the ORIGINAL SLAYER ARROW that actually SLAYED without a need for CRITS or ED help.
well, then u would just hav the same 3 people whining they should hav it too! (and it should work on likttle Shurkies no doubt). -head-desk-

.............

last but not least...
adjust Light Armor w/ adding PRR & DODGE. (leaning towards dodge)
prob solved.

Sorry, but i have no clue what you are trying to tell us. Care to elaborate properly this time ?

[maddong]

Can we include some nerfs so the ranger pass doesn't just lead the more more more crowd pumping everything up with steroids?

How about some mild nerfs:
1. Holy sword only works with melee
2. Kta doesn't stack with dm (bug fix)
3. Blood strength healing can trigger at most every second
4. Vanguards can no longer stun constructs/undead (bug fix)
5. Warlock temp hp further decreased

Each of my 6 main characters would be effected.

If you do any nerfs please announce them now so we can prep for them.

[HastyPudding]

I'd like to hear a developer's ideas and opinions of empathic healing because, currently, it's not worth 2 AP let alone 1 AP. All it does, right now, is provide very weak healing for rangers before they get their cure spells. A cure serious potion from the house K vendors can do this and not cost any AP and doesn't have limited uses.

As it stands, animal empathy is sort of a rather pointless, highly underused ability. I'd like to see it get some love.

Can we include some nerfs so the ranger pass doesn't just lead the more more more crowd pumping everything up with steroids?

How about some mild nerfs:
1. Holy sword only works with melee
2. Kta doesn't stack with dm (bug fix)
3. Blood strength healing can trigger at most every second
4. Vanguards can no longer stun constructs/undead (bug fix)
5. Warlock temp hp further decreased

Each of my 6 main characters would be effected.

If you do any nerfs please announce them now so we can prep for them.

1. Agreed. I really don't like this constant 15 paladin/5 xxxx multiclass shtick people are on, right now. Unfortunately, fixing rangers and fighters is only going to make it worse. I dread the thought of the kensei tree finally being remade and all you see is a bunch of 15 paladin/5 fighter builds dominating every aspect of the game.
2. Sure.
3. Don't really care about barbarians.
4. Absolutely not. This ability is expensive to outfit, requires tactics DC's, and has a very long cooldown. If the cooldown was shorter, sure, but right now, no. There needs to be SOME way of locking down very troublesome undead/constructs, so why not let it be a support dps tree?
5. Agreed. Every time some 2000/1200 HP warlock join my party I cringe inside at the ridiculousness of it. Warlock is already an easy button, and ES builds with bloated HP and tank-like PRR/MRR just make it beyond silly. I was actually kicked from a party on my scholar/souleater warlock because I said I didn't put any points in the ES tree because it didn't help my enchantment and necromancy DC's.

[DevilYouKnow]

Can we include some nerfs so the ranger pass doesn't just lead the more more more crowd pumping everything up with steroids?

How about some mild nerfs:
1. Holy sword only works with melee /signed 100% !!!
2. Kta doesn't stack with dm (bug fix) /That is already the case, tested multiple times.
3. Blood strength healing can trigger at most every second /signed
4. Vanguards can no longer stun constructs/undead (bug fix) /signed
5. Warlock temp hp further decreased /signed

Each of my 6 main characters would be effected.

If you do any nerfs please announce them now so we can prep for them.

Edit in red.

[FestusHood]

I know you've made no real announcements yet about AA, but I would like to make a suggestion.

Please include some Shiradi like random Fey elements. It fits the Arcane part, but it doesn't just make AA meaningless carbon copy of DWS with some clicky attacks and a few weak stances.

Honestly, slayer arrow should be in DWS (it's stalker-y to to snipe kill someone with an arrow). AA should have "Haste stance", "Concelament Stances", and fun exciting arrows attacks that aren't just boring on hit effects lie shattermantle or On Vorpal Smite/Banish procs. You can do way better.

AA should be like the spellsinger version of Bard, but for Ranger. At least in some ways. They should be getting exploding arrows that give AoE and knockdowns, all sorts of debuffs, and all sorts of valuable CC including helpless state.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

I basically agree with this. Slayer arrow does seem more appropriate to deepwood, but it's in AA because that's where it always was.

Just my vision, but i see deepwood as the tree that should be more about base damage with high spike damage shots. AA i think should be more about proc damage from arrows. I would start by making the elemental imbues scale with spell power (not ranged power). Maybe even 150% spell power.

If they are putting 20% doubleshot into the capstone of deepwood, will they keep also the 20% doubleshot in the capstone of AA? What could they replace the doubleshot in AA with if they wanted to avoid this redundancy?

My thought about the tier 5 head shot in stalker. It does need a bit more oomph. Maybe change the blind effect to a stun? That seems thematically correct. Didn't kill it but knocked it silly for a bit. Also maybe raise the 5(W) a bit. I was thinking either just go nuts and go to 10(w), or maybe get fancy and make it something like half ranger level(w).

[CeltEireson]

Replace "BLIND" in Head Shot with "KILL". If you want it to be competitive and have something other ranger trees do not.
Alternatively replace "BLIND" with some affect that works on bosses... 10% vulnerability? That would be PRE defining as well.

Also for being a "stalker". One who "stalks" which suggests movement around the prey... this PRE does best when standing still.
Deepwood Stander? Hmmm... what if they could maintain archer's focus while sneaking?

Or even something higher up in the tree that reduces the rate that archers focus decays - allowing you to build it up, move a bit, fire for a bit, move again etc.

[FestusHood]

Change this to ranged and thrown and I'm on board. Or instead of increased procs, just allow them to scale with Ranged Power

I would be happy if they could make the procs scale with spell power they way they do when cast from spells. It would seem to be thematically the proper destiny for an arcane archer.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I'm very firmly against a random proc table being added to AA. It's not DPS you can count upon, it's not thematically appropriate to the destiny, and we had a long period of time where similar tables for rainbow and colours contained party griefing and bugged effects. Not everyone enjoys being at the mercy of random effects.

Both of the trees should have good options for someone wanting to build a strong archer. The suggestion by a developer that DS should just be an auxiliary tree is really disappointing. Talk about planning for failure.

Why should this be the approach for that tree and not for mechanic, swashbuckler, etc? It sounds like you are setting out to make it mediocre, which is inexplicable given the huge gobs of power recently ladled out to the other classes. If you regret how much power was given to the other classes, the solution is not go half-way; either make with the nerfs or boost everyone to the same level then rebalance your content.

On the other hand, it would be nice for the community not to bargain against itself by actually asking for AA to be made worse by turning it into a special effects tree rather than one which can produce some damage and has some useful abilities, or give into munchkinism and demand 20[w] or instakill effects on special attacks for DWS.

What we need is a pass which removes the chaff from the trees, keeps their flavour by translating them into different playstyles, made them a real option for specialisation rather than a place to dump some extra AP, deals with the core issues facing archers compared to other ranged builds (RoF, on hit procs, balancing 10k and non 10k stars builds, etc), and results in a level of power comparable to other ranged builds.

Thanks.

[Bennum]

**** ON A UNRELATED NOTE ****

I still think the "Trees" should be split off and sold seperately. That there should be ONE "Class" tree for every class, that is generic and powerful enough*, and then the "Prestige" trees would be sold seperately and work like Harper, giving any class they are applied to powerful options. Want to be a Dwarf Barbarian 20 Arcane Archer? Go ahead, buy the Arcane Archer tree.

Just a thought.

I'm sorry but this may be the worst idea I have ever read here, what makes you think this would be a good idea at all?

[blerkington]

I would be happy if they could make the procs scale with spell power they way they do when cast from spells. It would seem to be thematically the proper destiny for an arcane archer.

Hi,

The amount of damage from imbues would have to be raised an awful lot to compete with the extra damage coming from ranged power and/or critical hit changes.

Gearing for spellpower on a bow user would be a huge pain in the backside, especially if you wanted to switch using imbues.

Thanks.

[Bennum]

Based on these for precedent, I'd say leave Improved Weapon Finesse as it is on live (maybe add throwers to it), but add the following to the cores:

Core 2 (ML3, 5 AP spent):
Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die
You can use dexterity for To Hit with shortbows and longbows.

Core 3 (ML6, 10 AP spent):
Called Shot (blah blah blah)
You can use dexterity for Damage with shortbows and longbows.

I could be convinced to move them down to cores 1 & 2 instead of 2 & 3 based on the acrobat/assassin precedent.

That looks like a good idea!

[CeltEireson]

Few more thoughts:

Not specific to DWS but certainly impacts on ranged - could you fix shot on the run, currently spring attack stops the penalty for both moving for both melee and ranged, whilst shot on the run does nothing when you're moving for ranged, you just get the +3 to ranged power.

Could we get a dex version of Ram's Might - i.e. +2 to dex and damage.

The tier 5 extra favoured enemy - whilst an extra favoured enemy can be useful generally in practical terms its not that much benefit at 'end game'. In particular packs there tends to be a fairly restricted number of different enemy types e.g. I assume epic shroud will be primarily Evil Outsiders, if you have a favoured enemy that doesn't appear in the latest packs then to a certain extent the only benefit its providing is the extra +2 to damage. 5 favoured enemies will probably cover the majority of mobs you'll encounter later on in the game, certainly the most dangerous ones, so there's not as much incentive to pick up an additional one rather than some other enhancement (or epic destiny ability for that matter). Given that its a tier 5 enhancement could we get something a lil extra on top? Maybe something like - for every favoured enemy that you have you gain 1% dodge against your favoured enemies, or 1-2 melee/ranged power.

As said earlier would be nice to have some way of regenerating animal empathy and lesser vigor still sucks!

I know sneak attack damage by rogue increases with melee power, does the sneak attack damage from the enhancements benefit from melee/ranged power? If not could it?

As others have said - would be nice if Shiradi Champion had a bit more damage for archers although I know this is about the enhancements not the destinies

Also would be nice if there was something in there to take advantage of hiding in plain sight as its a unique ability to rangers and fits well with the idea of a stalker - its gives a bonus to hide/move silently when you don't move for 3 sec, stacking up to 5 times. Hmmmm so maybe an enhancement that gives +1W damage for every 3 seconds you remain hidden, given it could be combined with other shots you could end up with a lot of damage from one shot, but as you have to remain hidden (and therefore not attacking) to build it, its probably not something that could be abused - its probably more something that would be good for an opening shot for a ranger soloing as a group wouldn't wait around for it

Thrill of the hunt, given that its conditional could it maybe be +1/2/4 damage, or have some additional benefit on tier 3. Same for favoured hunter.

Oh and does favoured enemy damage scale with melee/ranged power, or is it added after theyre applied to the base damage?

[Gratch]

Or even something higher up in the tree that reduces the rate that archers focus decays - allowing you to build it up, move a bit, fire for a bit, move again etc.

Yes. Also maybe add a further stacking reduction to archer focus decay rate in Shot on the Run feat. That feat with it's crazy number of pre-reqs did get a ranged power+3 boost, but could maybe use a little more given how little the -4 attack matters with DDO to-hit %'age based system changes.

And again restating. Head shot kills... blinds if they save.

[FestusHood]

Hi,

The amount of damage from imbues would have to be raised an awful lot to compete with the extra damage coming from ranged power and/or critical hit changes.

Gearing for spellpower on a bow user would be a huge pain in the backside, especially if you wanted to switch using imbues.

Thanks.

Yes, it would actually diversify the trees quite a bit. I don't really see the point of having two out of the three ranger trees being essentially the same thing. Two trees that both give ranged power and doublestrike.

The arcane archer tree could give out more spell power. Maybe universal spell power per point spent the way arcanes work, and then some specific spell power boosts. You could then slap on a potency item and easily be able to reach 250-300 spell power in epics. Then increase the % that it scales with the spellpower until you reach the desired levels of damage. As it stands right now, the damage imbues are hilariously underpowered, and might as well not be there, yet they are thematically the core function of arcane archers.

As far as the idea of giving up to 10(w) for the head shot, that doesn't strike me as being any more munchkinism than anything else being discussed here. How does that compare to the 250 damage that slayer arrow adds? Is that not munchkiny? I'm not sure i'm completely onboard with the idea of changing the blind to a kill, but it isn't thematically any more bizarre than coup de grace. Snipers are supposed to kill things with single shots aren't they? The stun effect i suggested seems appropriate to me. Both thematically and effect wise.

[Angelic-council]

I'm just curious, but.. Hmm. Shouldn't head shot gain "kill" instead of "blind"? I mean, it's a head shot, maybe there is a reason why it's blind since this is a game. But realistically thinking, head shot should at least kill or stun. Not blind. What everyone think.

DC 14 + ranger level + DEX modifier. Meaning, if you are pure and say, you have 66 DEX, which is really decent. You would have fortitude DC 62. It's not enought to kill everything, so it seem to me that it's very reasonable. If it's too much, maybe at least stun.

[blerkington]

Yes, it would actually diversify the trees quite a bit. I don't really see the point of having two out of the three ranger trees being essentially the same thing. Two trees that both give ranged power and doublestrike.

The arcane archer tree could give out more spell power. Maybe universal spell power per point spent the way arcanes work, and then some specific spell power boosts. You could then slap on a potency item and easily be able to reach 250-300 spell power in epics. Then increase the % that it scales with the spellpower until you reach the desired levels of damage. As it stands right now, the damage imbues are hilariously underpowered, and might as well not be there, yet they are thematically the core function of arcane archers.

As far as the idea of giving up to 10(w) for the head shot, that doesn't strike me as being any more munchkinism than anything else being discussed here. How does that compare to the 250 damage that slayer arrow adds? Is that not munchkiny? I'm not sure i'm completely onboard with the idea of changing the blind to a kill, but it isn't thematically any more bizarre than coup de grace. Snipers are supposed to kill things with single shots aren't they? The stun effect i suggested seems appropriate to me. Both thematically and effect wise.

Hi,

To hit 250-300 spellpower in one area, including a potency item for 90 or so, would mean the tree would have to give 160-210 universal spellpower. That is a huge amount. I suspect there would be some terrible unintended consequences if that were done, for example people rebuilding their nuking casters to take advantage of such a bonanza.

Adding a potency effect to your gear is actually quite a sacrifice at the moment, at cap anyway, because the items with this effect usually prevent you from equipping something much better, either directly or through effect conflicts with ohter gear.

The imbues are generally pretty bad as they are, both in their slight effects and the way the tree is built so that they are mutually exclusive and there aren't many other options for spending AP. Maybe we should have that discussion during the AA pass, but making them so they scale in some way at higher levels is a good idea.

I'm not a big fan of instakills in the game, and think we have too many of them already. Apart from being difficult to balance, they are annoying in groups, often resulting in a lot of wasted time as people instakill mobs out from under each other. Adding more of them doesn't seem like a good idea, because the end result will be a game where all we do is one shot trash mobs between boss fights. Another step closer to this game becoming the hideous love child of Diablo and Space Invaders.

I also think a guiding principle for setting power for enhancements should be they are appropriate in power for the character level at which they are achieved, and don't eclipse ED abilities in power. Unfortunately the idea that enhancements be a small improvement in character power rather than defining abilities of a build seems well and truly lost now.

Thanks.