Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Changes

[btolson]

Tier One
~ Favored Defense: AP cost reduced to 1/1/1 AP. Is no longer a multi-selector, but instead gives the following benefits against Favored Enemies: +2/+4/+6 to Armor Class, +1/+2/+3 Saving Throws

I wonder if there is something more interesting that can be added here. Like a guard-proc against all attacks made by your FEs... a sort of riposte? with a chance to inflict a -10% attack speed and -20 spell power debuff?

Tier Three
~ Favored Hunter: (1/1/1 AP) You gain +1/+2/+3 to hit and damage against favored enemies. (This moved horizontally to the middle of Tier 3)

I think you can safely increase this damage. Bonus damage against FEs used to be pretty substantial in years past, but with all the relatively recent additions of deadly items and +[w]'s and whatnot, FE bonus damage has lost a lot of its relative impact and attractiveness. Of course this is something that may be better solved by changing the FE feats to grant +3 damage or even +[w] instead of +2 damage.


Beyond that though, I feel something should be done to make combat against FEs more noticeable and dramatic. Something that you can really "feel". Here is an idea to be worked in IDK where, perhaps as a rider on t5 Extra Favored Enemy, based somewhat on KotC's passive stun chance against evil outsiders:

Favored Wrath
Whenever you strike one of your favored enemies, you have a 10% chance to inflict one of the following:
- a 2-second stun
- deal +100% damage (not a crit, just +100% damage similar to adrenaline)
- reduce it's fortification by 100% for 6 seconds
- a 3-second knockdown

Notice that some of these effects will only really work against fleshie/living FEs (e.g. the stun), some will really only work against non-living FEs (e.g. -100% fort --fleshies usually don't have any to begin with), while some will work equally well against all FEs (e.g. +100% damage). You can add or subtract from this list as you see fit; I aimed for an approximately equal number of "Good Things to Hit Fleshies With" vs "Good Things to Hit Non-Fleshies With" to keep all FEs on roughly equal footing.

Tier Five
~ Head Shot: Multiselector (No longer requires Leg Shot)
* Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.
* Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat and blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fort DC 14 + Ranger Level + the Dexterity bonus). Cooldown 15 seconds.

This DC is not really competitive even today, and a year from now when mob saves in newest content have gone up another +10, this DC will be nearly unchanged unless you intend to release +20 stat items or something. I'd say base it off char level instead of ranger to help shore it up. We're talking about a single-target blind with lowish uptime even if you have 95% to beat their saves; no need to fear the MCs when core3 already offers 100% chance to make sneak attacks on your target.


Also, 15 second cooldown is still too long. Way too long. This ability should be more competitive with permanent +2 threat range (as found in kensei, ravager, holy sword and approximately swashbuckler t5). It could then serve as a novel ability to mimic the power of those abilities, without actually being identical in form to them.

Considering that a vanilla archer can make about 2 attacks per second (factoring in avg manyshot uptime, alacrity and some fraction of double shot), then an extra +2 threat => +10% crit chance would yield an average 0.2 crits per second, or ~3 extra crits per 15 seconds.

Considering that a TWFer can make about 3 attacks per second, then an extra +2 threat => +10% crit chance would yield an average 0.3 crits per second, or 4.5 extra crits per 15 seconds.

Since headshot offers only 1 extra crit per 15 seconds, it is clearly far, far weaker than a permanent +2 threat for either ranged attacks or especially TWF, making this a poor t5.

If we were aiming for equivalency, then the ranged version of headshot should have a cooldown of 5 seconds (call it 6 for the +5[w] and blind chance), and the melee version of headshot should have a cooldown of ~3 seconds (call it 4 for the same reasons). But, such a cooldown would be too short for the simple reason that I don't want to spam headshot every 4 or 6 seconds in perpetuity.

So, we need to add more power to it. We could make the headshot also apply +100% damage on the guaranteed crit (I was going to suggest +multiplier, but that would get too crazy with adrenaline). This doubles the value of the guaranteed crit, so we could then double the calculated cooldown from above, to 12 seconds for the ranged version and 8 seconds for the melee version.

Additionally, we need to make it exclusive with competence bonuses to threat range, since we are aiming for equivalency and therefore exclusivity with that effect (namely holy sword and pulverizer, since kensei is t5 and already exclusive). This should be easily accomplished with an on-equip weapon effect -- let's call it "Deepwood Decapitator" for now -- packaged into the headshot abilities. This weapon effect will do 2 things:
- on application, any competence bonuses to threat range will be dispelled
- while present, the weapon is immune to competence bonuses to threat range
(if you don't have a way to provide general immunity to competence bonuses to threat, then holy sword and pulverizer must fail to apply if "Deepwood Decapitator" is present)

Text will need to be added to the Headshot ability to reflect this immunity to competence bonuses.

This will give us a unique version of crit profile enhancement, with no need to worry about holy sword splits becoming (remaining?) the go-to ranger builds.



Empathic Healing: This is both too weak (in terms of effect and usage limitation), and too expensive. It will not be easy to beat it into shape though, being only t2 and highly poachable. One approach is to leave it where it is, and boost it through cores.

E.g.,
core2 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now receives 3 additional caster levels.
core3 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now receives a total of 6 additional caster levels.
core4 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now becomes Vigor/Mass Vigor and receives a total of 9 additional caster levels.
core5 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now becomes Greater Vigor/Mass Greater Vigor and receives a total of 12 additional caster levels.
core6 gains: If you have Empathic Healing, it now receives a total of 18 additional caster levels.

Being capped at 6? uses per shrine and competing with core5 active for uses, I don't think Greater Vigor at cl 38 is too much for a pure 20 ranger.




I think something missing from this tree is a defensive cooldown. Maybe a big PRR boost, or a big +concealment or +incorp boost, with a short duration and 1-2 minute CD.

[mezzorco]

Are you going to add any spell to the ranger spell list?
Currently for a pure ranger choosing a worthy 3rd level spell to slot is quite difficult.

Maybe you could change Empathic Healing to add Vigor to the 3rd level ranger spell list.

[Qhualor]

Are you going to add any spell to the ranger spell list?
Currently for a pure ranger choosing a worthy 3rd level spell to slot is quite difficult.

Maybe you could change Empathic Healing to add Vigor to the 3rd level ranger spell list.

i would also like to know this. ranger spells are in dire need of help.

[Delacroix21]

Is the tempest tree getting an update as well?

[Renvar]

My first impression of the tree is: Good, but not good enough.

RP adds are good. I like the HP/mitigation. I like the consolidation of some of the favored enemy stuff to make room. Those are the positives.

Negatives:

- MP adds. Not sure why this is here. Rogues have Assassin for melee DPS and mechanic for ranged DPS. and Acro for staff focus/flavor. Pally has KoTC for melee DPS, SD for tanking/defense, and Vanguard for S&B focus/flavor. The ranger tree should follow suit. DWS for ranged DPS, Tempest for Melee DPS, and AA for bow flavor/focus. If a ranger wants more MP, put points in the tempest tree. Giving some ranged and some melee in one tree ends up with meh ranged and meh melee. That's not a fun place to be.

- No crit range or modifier boosts. This is a sniper. Snipers do devastating damage with one shot. That translates into more crits and bigger crits. And not just on a clicky. The mechanic has Expert Builder and Sniper. Not to mention the 5 tiers of sharpshooter. The best single targe, single shot ranged DPS is still a mechanic rogue after this tree is done. By far.

- No attack speed boosts. Rogues have Rapid fire and mechanical reloader both. DWS has nothing. Now if you are going to put that in AA, then OK. Maybe we aren't seeing the whole picture. But as it is, Manyshot means that adding some doubleshot isn't enough. You need some alacrity boosts somewhere.

[Bennum]

I really like what I am seeing here, good stuff so far. Also hoping for buffs/ clean up to Tempest and AA.

[Kielbasa]

~ Mark of the Hunted: The Fortification debuff has been raised from 10% to 25%. It now reads: "Activate: Expend a use of Animal Empathy. Your target gains -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes."

Even with the buff this is still worse than assassin's trick which essentially does the same thing on a 6 second timer.

If you really want to make 18 levels of ranger worth something change it to:
Mark of the Hunter: a self buff that doubles your favored enemy bonuses and allows you to bypass 25% of their fortification. 20 second duration like most action boosts limited by animal empathy uses. That would increase the value of favored defense and accuracy as well as the enhancements that grant more animal empathy uses. A level 20 deepwood stalker could get short bursts of +3 hit, +15 damage, +6 ac, +3 saves against 6 types of favored enemies if they took all the relevant enhancements.

Compared to things like lethality, expert builder, or cartwheel charge that kind of buff is still kind of weak but it would be a huge improvement in the right direction.

[Renvar]

This sounds like you still need the weapon Finesse Feat. Can this be changed to: Adds Dex to damage with bows. Also, adds Dex to damage with finessable weapons if you have the Weapon Finesse feat.

That way you keep the versatility for those who want to switch between ranged and melee combat, but don't force a feat on someone that only wants to be a ranged character.

Just a thought.

Makes sense. Targeting Sights in Rogue Mechanic Tree just gives INT for damage to crossbows and thrown weapons. No need to have a feat. Assassins get the same with Daggers and Kukri. No need for a feat there, either.

All the recent tree adds have not linked anything to a feat. Keeping the ranged weapons add in DWS tied to finesse would be a step back for them.

[Grailhawk]

- MP adds. Not sure why this is here. Rogues have Assassin for melee DPS and mechanic for ranged DPS. and Acro for staff focus/flavor. Pally has KoTC for melee DPS, SD for tanking/defense, and Vanguard for S&B focus/flavor. The ranger tree should follow suit. DWS for ranged DPS, Tempest for Melee DPS, and AA for bow flavor/focus. If a ranger wants more MP, put points in the tempest tree. Giving some ranged and some melee in one tree ends up with meh ranged and meh melee. That's not a fun place to be.

You have this backwards AA is the Ranged Tree, Tempest is the Melee tree, Deepwood Stalker is the hybrid flavor tree. Deepwood is where favored enemy enhancements, devotion enhancements and other general purpose Ranger things are placed.

[Grailhawk]

Bonus	Stalker	Kight of the Chalice
Weapon Procs	5d6	7d6 +500 vorpal damage to undead
Damage	9.5	Divine Might
[W]	0	0
To-Hit	3	8
Melee Power	40	15
Doublestrike	30%	0%*
Alacrity	0%	0%
Crit Multiplier	0	0*
Crit Threat	0	0*

So the comparison of Stalker to Knight of the Chalice is more favorable and looks good enough but that's only if you ignore that Paladins have holy sword and zeal once those two things are factored in rangers is blown out of the water, even factoring free feats and Favored Enemy damage Paladins enhancement cleaves, and Smites counter those.

Sources

Stalker 
+5d6 Sneak Attack (Core 1,2,4,6, and Stealthy)
+3 To-Hit vs FE (Favored Hunter)
+9.5 Damage (Heavy Draw, Favored Hunter, and Thrill of the Hunt(3*0.5=1.5 avg))
Always in Point Blank Shot Range 
+40 Melee Power (Core 4, 6, and With Bow and Sword)
+30% Doublestrike (Strikes Like Lightning + Killer)


+8 To Hit (Cores +5 all creatures, +3 Evil creatures)
+7d6 Light Damage (Cores)
+15 Melee Power (Champion of Good, Empowered Smite)
500 Damage vs Undead on Vorpal (Slayer of Evil III)
Good Weapons (Champion of Good)
Divine Might

IMO the Mark of the Hunter needs a killer app to make this tree worth wiled I like the idea of +1 crit multiplier and/or threat but you have options.

[Thar]

If you're talking about soloing then yes I'd agree. but if you're working with melees you can let them engage first and target their mobs, should allow you to build up the stacks without attracting too much attention especially if you have any items to reduce ranged aggro.

Also useful in some boss fights, again as long as you don't draw aggro.

true as long as melee is keeping agro. often the archer fires first and all the mobs rush past the melee... then my guildie ranger dies wonders why he hates the toon and the mobs all come back.

it is a little amusing.

[Thar]

IMO the Mark of the Hunter needs a killer app to make this tree worth wiled I like the idea of +1 crit multiplier and/or threat but you have options.

Ranger needs an expanded crit somewhere. DWS is the logical place so it can apply to both ranged and melee.

[Darthbadger]

I rather like that they are making a blended tree for the class of Ranger for some more variety in classes; that is exactly what this tree should be. I am glad to see them not try to recreate the mechanic tree. That said, some good and bad things:

Good: The cost reduction for many of the low tiers is good. Spending 8 or 9 AP for fast sneak movement was really stupid. Having cheaper accesses to the good parts of favored enemies (rather than feeling like you are paying a huge AP tax) is good.

Archer's focus as RP is fine; consolidates and simplifies calculations even if it scales less into epics. I can live with that.

Improved weapon finesse for bows is good. Makes a choice of losing a feat but consolidating attribute scores. But also being stuck with finesse-able weapons. Tough choices is good.

Mostly I like that this is a blended tree. This is for those of us who may not be min/maxers and value flexibility more than squeezing every ounce out of that one big ability. Strikes like lightening I feel is an appropriately powerful T5 ability and gives this blended tree a nice cap.


Bad: The AC bonus for favored enemies is still garbage. Maybe type it as dodge instead? Or is dodge going to be in tempest?

Tendon cut is still dreadful. Rangers have lots and lots of active clickie abilities. I would never bother with this one.

Head shot/strike needs to be rethought. Would it be possible to code this to be very destructive (and I mean auto-helpless, massive +W modifier, or other really cool thing) to favored enemies but useless on other mobs? I think that would fit better in the theme of the tree. If so, also make cooldown longer if concerned about OP. This would really spice up the tree and give it something unique. At moment this ability is a really not good T5 ability.

Other thoughts:
I was hoping to see some pet enhancement boosts in here. The fact that I don't implies rangers are not going to get their pets. Correct? If so I think that's a shame.

With the PRR/MRR changes rangers still have survivability issues. And I don't think the PRR additions in this tree is the correct direction to resolve this. I'd rethink the PRR and consider some dodge/concealment bumps instead. Rangers should be dodgy and good at avoiding magic and damage, but have real issues with spike damage when they do get hit. Right now and with these proposed changes have the worst of both worlds: not enough dodge but also insufficient PRR. This still will be a massive nudge for melee rangers to wear heavy armor in epics. This may be resolved in the other trees but just some things to consider.

Overall I give these changes a....B. (borderline B+, definitely headed in right direction) Totally arbitrary. You're welcome.

[Thar]

Is the tempest tree getting an update as well?

All three trees need updates. for variety of cost and minute benefit reasons.

[Thar]

With the PRR/MRR changes rangers still have survivability issues. And I don't think the PRR additions in this tree is the correct direction to resolve this. I'd rethink the PRR and consider some dodge/concealment bumps instead. Rangers should be dodgy and good at avoiding magic and damage, but have real issues with spike damage when they do get hit. Right now and with these proposed changes have the worst of both worlds: not enough dodge but also insufficient PRR. This still will be a massive nudge for melee rangers to wear heavy armor in epics. This may be resolved in the other trees but just some things to consider.

Overall I give these changes a....B. (borderline B+, definitely headed in right direction) Totally arbitrary. You're welcome.

I'd have to give it a C (B- for positive dps changes with melee/range power, but averaged with a D for no big wow abillity to compete with holy sword, coup de gra, barb con wail abillity AND D- for not addressing the prr issue enough for all versions of ranger cloth or light armor. some across the board defensive bumps are needed for dodge, AC, and PRR. as any one is not going to compete with the other classes due to light armor being so far behind with BAB * 1/2 for the prr calculation even with rangers having a good bab. why a ranger who has same bab would go from 12 prr for that part of the calc to 26 prr for heavy armor isn't fair. the armor alone should have a difference. the rest is the skill of the character which would be the same.

Light armor 10 2 + BAB/2 = 22 for lvl 20
Medium armor 20 4 + 2/3*BAB = 37 for lvl 20
Heavy armor 30 6 + BAB = 56 for lvl 20

that's too mucha jump for plate to be 34 prr more than a ranger can obtain without spending feats and losing evasion making them bad at spell damage then too.

[mezzorco]

I was hoping to see some pet enhancement boosts in here. The fact that I don't implies rangers are not going to get their pets. Correct? If so I think that's a shame.

It, indeed, is a shame.

[Darthbadger]

I'll also add that I oppose the +1 crit multiplier being pushed multiple times in this thread.

Yes, that multiplier is in so many trees right now and so ranger will be "behind" because of that lack.

But, the crit multiplier has become a lazy dps boost that equates to: Which tree will you get your multiplier from?" It is very vanilla and not creative and has been breeding like a bunny through the enhancement trees.

I'm much rather see a thematically unique ability or strategy. Like a combined "haste/damage boost" clickie or some truly massive boost/ability to favored enemies or something similar to, but better than, elaborate parry. Something unique, thematic, and not focused on pure DPS.

I'll admit that this suggestion would be more palatable if the game were no so totally raw DPS at the moment.

[Darthbadger]

I'd have to give it a C (B- for positive dps changes with melee/range power, but averaged with a D for no big wow abillity to compete with holy sword, coup de gra, barb con wail abillity AND D- for not addressing the prr issue enough for all versions of ranger cloth or light armor. some across the board defensive bumps are needed for dodge, AC, and PRR. as any one is not going to compete with the other classes due to light armor being so far behind with BAB * 1/2 for the prr calculation even with rangers having a good bab. why a ranger who has same bab would go from 12 prr for that part of the calc to 26 prr for heavy armor isn't fair. the armor alone should have a difference. the rest is the skill of the character which would be the same.

Light armor 10 2 + BAB/2 = 22 for lvl 20
Medium armor 20 4 + 2/3*BAB = 37 for lvl 20
Heavy armor 30 6 + BAB = 56 for lvl 20

that's too mucha jump for plate to be 34 prr more than a ranger can obtain without spending feats and losing evasion making them bad at spell damage then too.

Well, I disagree, in part. The issue is the trade off. I mean, this is a huge problem in the game right now with PRR (so I agree with you there). But I don't think the solution is to just make light armor have the same PRR BAB bonus. You do get other benefits from wearing light or cloth; and I enjoy the choice aspect of this. The problem for ranger (IMHO) is that they are getting screwed both ways--bad PRR and insufficient dodge. So my thought (as I mentioned) was to try to add some thematically appropriate dodge and not try to bump up the PRR. Also agree that there is no wow in tree, but I did suggest an idea for one.

I do agree though that the suvivability issue with cloth/light is not addressed in THIS tree, but I will wait for the Tempest tree before I totally flip out. I do, however, disagree with you that the solution direction being a PRR boost or BAB change to the armor formula.

[Severlin]

Some thoughts from the feedback:

~ Tempest is coming soon. We plan to have it as part of U28.

~ Arcane Archer will follow in a patch sometime after U28, but before U29. The tree is extremely complicated in both design and implementation and we need extra time to give it the attention it needs.

~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees

~ Getting Dexterity damage to bows won't require Weapon Finesse, which is a melee oriented feat. In fact, we will probably drop the feat requirement entirely. If you want to get Dexterity to damage and don't care about Dexteirty To Hit then we will probably just allow that. We are looking into including Thrown Weapons in this based on player feedback.

~ We plan on also adding Tactical DC bonuses to the blind effect of Headshot/Headstrike so it scales with gear. We agree that the base DC won't scale well enough at the top end.

~ We are (admittedly slowly) replacing many instances of %damage with Melee or Ranged power. We are making most on hit effect scale with Ranged or Melee Power and thus we are moving towards that system. As we do so it will make remaining abilities that still use %damage be potent for a time as other sources are converted. We understand this.

Sev~

[EllisDee37]

~ Getting Dexterity damage to bows won't require Weapon Finesse, which is a melee oriented feat. In fact, we will probably drop the feat requirement entirely. If you want to get Dexterity to damage and don't care about Dexteirty To Hit then we will probably just allow that. We are looking into including Thrown Weapons in this based on player feedback.

Both thrown weapons and bows default to Dexterity To Hit, so the only thing there is to care about for range is Dexterity To Damage. Currently on live the only way I'm aware of to get Dexterity To Damage with a bow is an elf enhancement. It really needs to be a ranger enhancement, and also really shouldn't require a feat.

Sounds like that's the direction you're going, so all good, carry on.