Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Changes

[Grailhawk]

They are both paid classes, ranger is ftp. That comparison is slightly invalid

So you are saying that people bought Druid or Artificer because they had pets? If so IMO that was a bad reason to by the classes but I guess to each there own...

[DevilYouKnow]

Don't mean jack, but I've got your back with that suggestion. Crit Profiles in this game have gone crazy they need to rein them in drastically.

Same goes for one shot champions and 100k hp trash mobs in defiler.

[Assassination]

Beyond that, as far as this specific tree goes, you're just as well going STR as DEX. There are definite benefits to both, but DEX needs support in this tree if it's to be anywhere in the ballpark with STR builds.
quoted from Steelstar.... hmm don't know how to quote yet....

How about a Dex boost clickie? Like Divine might for Dex, based on wisdom for a ranger...

Because I like rangers and I like dex!

Also, I know no one is forcing me to run a Pally/Ranger. It just seems more effective in combat. I would like a pure ranger build that is flavorful and effective in combat.

I'm excited that we are getting a ranger pass!

[DevilYouKnow]

Said this before, but since it's come up a few times in this thread:

• Nobody's forcing anyone to play particular builds or styles! You are free to play what you want.
• Our goal is to create the building blocks for characters and playstyles, so various players can find one or more they enjoy playing.
• Some players believe that Top DPS is the only "good" way to make a character.
  
  • As a result, feel "forced" to take certain things when they are Top DPS, and "forced" to not take everything else when it isn't.
  • It's definitely one method, and that's what you like playing, great! But that's not the only style people play (not by a long shot), and it's certainly not the only playstyle we build enhancements, items, and abilities for.
  
  
• Play what you want, it's up to you.

This is another solid set of feedback with some suggestions we're considering. Thanks!

Pretty much this.

Poeple should stop making it unfun for everyone else who perhaps like to keep their particular build or style,

without being nerfed into oblivion, because someone doesn't like the way others are playing this game.

Very good job steelstar !

Don't listen to the ,,I hate fun things'' sort of people and keep doing what you have done before.

[Fecerak]

Steelstar - While I agree with most of your points, the main issue right now is that the enhancements as presented actually don't give you all the versatility you claim the tree to be about. I'm perfectly fine with it being a subpar option in terms of pure dps (in fact I'd actually prefer that), however if you do that you have to actually give something substantial in return, which the enhancements mostly fail at doing right now. It would be really nice if the tree could give some strong abilities that aren't necessarily about maximising dps. This does however require that the non-dps abilities that you get in return actually are worth having.

Right now it basically just seems to me like a subpar option in terms of dps with few and too weak benefits to make up for it's shortcomings. Give it some actual abilities that aren't related to dps and the comments in the thread wouldn't be as negative as they have been. If they could get reliable CC abilities, maybe some more favored enemies (which both fit with the theme and also increase versatility) beyond the one extra they get, get some abilities that actually make you able to assassinate targets like a stalker/sniper should be able to (like the AA arrow of death allows them to), give some strong stealth related abilities (not just +hide/MS but rather abilities that improve the entire stealth subsystem, like shorter detection radiuses, shorter deaggro timers, etc.), stronger spells and so on then people would like the tree a lot more I'd imagine.

Also I'd like to point out that Rangers also should probably get some strong Ranger only spells like the Paladin has Zeal and Holy Sword. They don't need to be as strong as Zeal or Holy Sword, and don't necessarily have to augment your damage either, but I feel like the current spells are wasting an opportunity to give all rangers some actual sweet unique benefits. Maybe give them some CC spells that don't have DCs or allow you to teleport between natural terrain or something completely different - just seems silly to me that there are no ranger only spells.

Also - (assuming you are still basing stuff on 3.5 D&D) the 3.5 Spell Compendium spell that gives +1 SA dice per 3 caster levels (I think it's Hunter's Insight or something like that) sounds like a nice fit to be a spell that could be added to the ranger spell list later into the Deepwood sniper tree.

EDIT: @jakeelala:
If you don't want to be a dual wielding tempest or a AA and you still want to have high DPS then maybe the Ranger simply isn't the class for you? Dps isn't the only relevant metric in the game (it's clearly the most important but not the only). Some people would be perfectly willing to sacrifice some DPS to get nice self-healing or relevant CC, and having the 2 ranger combat styles represented in the other 2 trees should be enough to make Rangers a viable dps class overall, which makes the third tree a nice opportunity to give interesting bonuses that don't necessarily apply in pure dps situations to the people who value EE dps race quests lower than you apparently do.

[Bennum]

Does the Pale Master skeleton invalidate druids? Wizard isn't a paid class, either.

An animal companion fits the Deepwood Stalker theme perfectly, and those that do not want a pet can skip it and save APs.

No because they ALWAYS had it. This would be a change that happened AFTER Druid was already PAID for by others. Sorry but this comparison is also invalid.

[edrein]

Pretty much this.

Poeple should stop making it unfun for everyone else who perhaps like to keep their particular build or style,

without being nerfed into oblivion, because someone doesn't like the way others are playing this game.

Very good job steelstar !

Don't listen to the ,,I hate fun things'' sort of people and keep doing what you have done before.

Unnerf my Spirit Blast on my warlock then please. The new damage is considerably inferior to the Eldritch Wave from Soul Eater. If anything Eldritch Wave is over performing, but most people are running near full Enlightened Spirit and thus the Blast's damage got noticed far earlier. Can we also nerf the Fury-shot, holy sword, and other various whining I've seen in this thread in comparison as to how we should scale Deepwood as a tree?

Also, I'm all for a ranger animal companion. If we're going to do any P2P pet enhancement trees rip out the Enlighten Spirit summons line and toss it into this general pet tree for AP. Then do the rest of Qhualor's suggestion. And give Enlightened Spirit a more consolidated melee feel with the removed summons line. (Also please fix the aura lag. Set all buffs to recast every 30-60 seconds like a Warchanter, and make the HP portion reactivate with each tick of the aura. Or perhaps in general give each core a flat HP amount instead of the temp HP. And give us a regeneration effect in the aura similar to tabletop's Fiendish Resilience. Either way changing the duration of the buffs will certainly help with the lag as of late.)

[DevilYouKnow]

Hey steelstar. When can we move on to tempest ?

[Steelstar]

Hey steelstar. When can we move on to tempest ?

Very soon! I'm working on the feedback adjustment plans for Deepwood Stalker based on this thread right now, but Vargouille's working on Tempest as we speak.

[Assassination]

Steelstar - While I agree with most of your points, the main issue right now is that the enhancements as presented actually don't give you all the versatility you claim the tree to be about. I'm perfectly fine with it being a subpar option in terms of pure dps (in fact I'd actually prefer that), however if you do that you have to actually give something substantial in return, which the enhancements mostly fail at doing right now. It would be really nice if the tree could give some strong abilities that aren't necessarily about maximising dps. This does however require that the non-dps abilities that you get in return actually are worth having.

Right now it basically just seems to me like a subpar option in terms of dps with few and too weak benefits to make up for it's shortcomings. Give it some actual abilities that aren't related to dps and the comments in the thread wouldn't be as negative as they have been. If they could get reliable CC abilities, maybe some more favored enemies (which both fit with the theme and also increase versatility) beyond the one extra they get, get some abilities that actually make you able to assassinate targets like a stalker/sniper should be able to (like the AA arrow of death allows them to), give some strong stealth related abilities (not just +hide/MS but rather abilities that improve the entire stealth subsystem, like shorter detection radiuses, shorter deaggro timers, etc.), stronger spells and so on then people would like the tree a lot more I'd imagine.

Also I'd like to point out that Rangers also should probably get some strong Ranger only spells like the Paladin has Zeal and Holy Sword. They don't need to be as strong as Zeal or Holy Sword, and don't necessarily have to augment your damage either, but I feel like the current spells are wasting an opportunity to give all rangers some actual sweet unique benefits. Maybe give them some CC spells that don't have DCs or allow you to teleport between natural terrain or something completely different - just seems silly to me that there are no ranger only spells.

Also - (assuming you are still basing stuff on 3.5 D&D) the 3.5 Spell Compendium spell that gives +1 SA dice per 3 caster levels (I think it's Hunter's Insight or something like that) sounds like a nice fit to be a spell that could be added to the ranger spell list later into the Deepwood sniper tree.

EDIT: @jakeelala:
If you don't want to be a dual wielding tempest or a AA and you still want to have high DPS then maybe the Ranger simply isn't the class for you? Dps isn't the only relevant metric in the game (it's clearly the most important but not the only). Some people would be perfectly willing to sacrifice some DPS to get nice self-healing or relevant CC, and having the 2 ranger combat styles represented in the other 2 trees should be enough to make Rangers a viable dps class overall, which makes the third tree a nice opportunity to give interesting bonuses that don't necessarily apply in pure dps situations to the people who value EE dps race quests lower than you apparently do.

I agree with all of this. 5th edition Rangers get some nice spells as well. I like to run characters that can do well both at ranged and melee combat, that is why this tree is important to me, and my characters...!

[jakeelala]

Very soon! I'm working on the feedback adjustment plans for Deepwood Stalker based on this thread right now, but Vargouille's working on Tempest as we speak.

Can you please address any and all (or lack thereof) of concerns being taken for throwing character builds in the Ranger pass? Will Throwers be considered at all as an option? Will abilities in these trees be expected to work with Thrown combat?

Thank you

[mezzorco]

...

Also I'd like to point out that Rangers also should probably get some strong Ranger only spells like the Paladin has Zeal and Holy Sword. They don't need to be as strong as Zeal or Holy Sword, and don't necessarily have to augment your damage either, but I feel like the current spells are wasting an opportunity to give all rangers some actual sweet unique benefits. Maybe give them some CC spells that don't have DCs or allow you to teleport between natural terrain or something completely different - just seems silly to me that there are no ranger only spells.

...

I completely agree.
Particularly, 3rd and 4th level useful spells are so few that you struggle filling slots on a pure ranger!

[Steelstar]

Can you please address any and all (or lack thereof) of concerns being taken for throwing character builds in the Ranger pass? Will Throwers be considered at all as an option? Will abilities in these trees be expected to work with Thrown combat?

Thank you

As Sev said earlier in the thread, we are likely adding Thrown weapons to Improved Weapon Finesse. Beyond that, I believe everything else in Deepwood Stalker that works for Bows should also work for Thrown. We'll take a look on our end, and if you know of any Ranged abilities in DWS that don't work with Thrown on Live right now, let us know.

[Vellrad]

Ranger is definitely not obligated to be a DEX only class. Yes, there are some definite benefits to structuring a build around Dexterity when taking enhancements in this tree; it's both thematically and mechanically appropriate. However, stacking sources of Strength are still available in much higher and frequent quantities than Dexterity, especially at endgame, where a STR-focused character can get its STR MUCH higher than a DEX-based character can get their DEX. In short, DEX builds need the support in this tree more than STR builds do.

As for this specific tree, only the following actually applies to DEX specifically:
- You have access abilities that grant DEX directly (making up some of the distance between it and STR... at the cost of AP, which you wouldn't need to spend on a comparable STR build).
- You have access to using DEX for damage... again, at the cost of AP a STR build wouldn't need to spend
- One save DC in one ability

Beyond that, as far as this specific tree goes, you're just as well going STR as DEX. There are definite benefits to both, but DEX needs support in this tree if it's to be anywhere in the ballpark with STR builds.

What items?
5/rest +6 clicky and +2 rage pots (or +5 primal scream).
All the big str boosts require you to be a barbarian or paladin.
All str based rangers are subpar to dex, unless you add some multiclass with divine might.

And rangers get bow str for free, so this should be obvious that their ranged DCs should be dex (how precisely you attack) or str (how much force you put behind arrow). Same with melee.

[barecm]

Very soon! I'm working on the feedback adjustment plans for Deepwood Stalker based on this thread right now, but Vargouille's working on Tempest as we speak.

Any chance the adjustment plan includes crit range / vorpal range expansion like other classes have?

[Thar]

Said this before, but since it's come up a few times in this thread:

• Nobody's forcing anyone to play particular builds or styles! You are free to play what you want.
• Our goal is to create the building blocks for characters and playstyles, so various players can find one or more they enjoy playing.
• Some players believe that Top DPS is the only "good" way to make a character.
  
  • As a result, feel "forced" to take certain things when they are Top DPS, and "forced" to not take everything else when it isn't.
  • It's definitely one method, and that's what you like playing, great! But that's not the only style people play (not by a long shot), and it's certainly not the only playstyle we build enhancements, items, and abilities for.
  
  
• Play what you want, it's up to you.

This is another solid set of feedback with some suggestions we're considering. Thanks!

Thanks for the insight.

Rangers don't need to be top dps. that should be barbs. But they should be good at something and that would probably be related to speed of attacks, bows, TWF, dodge/defense. no? They should be able to be better than other classes in those areas that are specific to a ranger. If not good at something then the class gets put on the shelf for all those except those who insist to play them. (i'm one that played one to epic complitionist even though it's worse than every other melee.) They NEED something special. (bards got coup de gra, pally holy sword, barbs rage healing, rogues mechanic?, warlocks - mass destruction.) Put it this way, if you want to play a melee twf why not play a barb. if you want to play a ranged toon, why play ranger over a moncher or pally multiclass. You need to balance the class to do something good so people will play it. Seriously, even with the proposed changes how can a ranger kill something fast enough to get 1 kill vs a warlock? (a question my wizard has. i can barely get one finger of death off before things are dead, sometimes zero). It's not that your forcing us to play rangers, your making everything else better at the same playstyle that we are worse off playing a ranger.

To be adequate in dps, they need a crit enhancer +1 to range/damage in some tree? Every other melee tree has one so to be fair to the class they should have a option somewhere. It will take more melee power/ranged power to approach those increases on the other classes. Not to be top... to keep up.

[legendkilleroll]

Any chance the adjustment plan includes crit range / vorpal range expansion like other classes have?

lol

The game needs to make classes interesting, not boring like you want, taking threat range, crit multiplier, attack speed like other trees have. Need something unique not the same as everything else. You will probably say " but rangers will be behind these classes, its not fair, rangers are weak" there surely must be ways to get them closer to the other revamped classes wothout just copy/paste.

[FuzzyDuck81]

CC is within the overall concept of the Deepwood Stalker, we may discuss adding a bit more of that to this tree.

Maybe have the net traps a la lines of supply? Either large AoE like the ones there, or smaller one more like web? Make it a T5 ability & keep the no-save aspect, then limit them to either a set number per rest (3/6/9?) with a pretty short cooldown, or have maybe unlimited use with 120/90/60 sec cooldown on them - potentially quite strong, but they don't last all that long & considering how traps & the time bomb works for mechanics, it wouldn't necessarily be particularly overpowered, would certainly make up for the tree being less DPS focussed, be pretty desirable for the versatile flavour of the tree, and be very appropriate to the hunter theme.

[Aletys]

Why does it always have to evolve around beind a pure class ? I am really sick of that.

I should not be forced into being a pure class. It is for us to decide what we are after.

Multiclassing is there for a reason.

No, but neither should those who prefer to be pure classes be forced into multi-classing. When done right, it encourages both approaches (look at warlock, and some of the more recent revamps). This simply appears to further nerf the class for those who would like to go pure. My ranger is probably going to be put on the shelf based on what I see in here.

[Qhualor]

There have been a lot of similar statements and arguments in this thread, which has made it difficult to parse out the useful feedback. To clarify:

• We did not say that DWS is a "filler tree". Some players did, who do not seem to like Deepwood Stalker as a concept, but we did not.
• It is not true that it is "not intended to be a main tree" on our end.
• What Severlin did say is that the DPS of Deepwood Stalker is intentionally lower than the other two Ranger trees.
  
  • The biggest reason for this is that Deepwood Stalker's main focus is Versatility. You can gain abilities out of this tree that accentuate Melee, accentuate Ranged, or help you build a character that is proficient (if not top-of-the-line) with both.
  • Severlin did say that this is a good tree to stack on top of other, more DPS-focused trees. This is true, if not the primary function of the tree. If you are Melee Ranger who takes Tempest as their primary tree and want to get some extra Melee attacks or focus on Dexterity, taking some things from Deepwood Stalker can support that.
  
  
• In the end, we see a character that chooses to take Deepwood Stalker as their main tree being a character that wants to switch between Melee and Ranged depending on the situation; the changes we want to make to the tree are the changes that will support that, especially in T5 and later Cores. The results should be viable (we are doing internal DPS testing at the moment with the current round of changes), but not necessarily top-of-the-line in terms of DPS, because some of the damage is traded for versatility.

Said this before, but since it's come up a few times in this thread:
[LIST][*]Nobody's forcing anyone to play particular builds or styles! You are free to play what you want.[*]Our goal is to create the building blocks for characters and playstyles, so various players can find one or more they enjoy playing.[*]Some players believe that Top DPS is the only "good" way to make a character.

• As a result, feel "forced" to take certain things when they are Top DPS, and "forced" to not take everything else when it isn't.
• It's definitely one method, and that's what you like playing, great! But that's not the only style people play (not by a long shot), and it's certainly not the only playstyle we build enhancements, items, and abilities for.

An interesting perspective and I see what you are saying. I did call DWS as an extra point tree at the beginning of the thread. That's because my ranger is and always will be a Tempest and I treat trees like DWS and Harper the same way. I look at the tree as a way to boost my Tempest power and probably going to be some tough decisions where to spend the extra points. For the record, I wasn't necessarily complaining. I was giving my first impression. When we see Tempest I'll be able to picture things better.

I completely agree, but how do you change the game so it's less dps focused and bringing back versatility without upsetting the player base?