Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Changes

[Faltout]

While I agree with your statement, many people on this topic are forgetting the things that are currently on Deepwood Stalker tree and was not changed by the OP statements. Horizon Shot is an amazing capstone ability that is synergistic with Archer's Focus and Sneak Attack if you are not in the zerg mindset (kill fast and keep moving).

Yeah, adds DPS.

Aimed Shot allow you to stack Archer's Focus quicker than any other ranged character. If you have enough targets (or a sufficiently durable target), you can keep 10+ stacks of AF even while moving.

AF is DPS right? Aimed Shot is also DPS.

+90 Positive Spellpower is on par with the most healing-focused tree in the whole game.

soooo... I'll note this under HP and self-healing then.

Extra Favored Enemy is a cheap +2 damage to a ton of mobs (but I really want them to add more mechanics that works better against FE).

DPS again.

Killer can be easily sustained for +20 Doubleshot, specially if you time correctly your Merciful Shots.

Killer and Merciful Shots are DPS too.

I'm not against those abilities you listed. I'm pointing out that all the abilities in here are adding HP, DPS and PRR. (except the ones I noted, like Head Shot) Is that all a deepwood stalker can do? No good with animals (he can't even buff them?), no good with nature (he can't even take a hint from some druid spells?), no good with assassinations while hidden?

But I guess we get what we ask for. Reading the thread, 90% of the posters only care about DPS and how new ranger compares to pally and rogue DPS. It's only natural that the devs will just offer more of that. And then deliver a raid where DPS is the only thing that matters.

[barecm]

The issue for me is that this tree now gives you no reason to go beyond 5 or 6 levels of ranger to pull out what you need to further boost another class. I thought the whole concept behind the class revisions was to give you more incentive to be a pure class, not less. If there were some crit range bonus and/or vorpal threat range expansion that some other classes have and were put in the last two core abilities, that would give you at least some reason to go to 18 or 20 ranger. As is, this is a fail compared to what we have seen in other revamps that are live. It is not too late to change, but history shows that once they post it to the boards, it is already set in stone. Overall I am very disappointed and a bit offended that this is what they spent all this time deliberating on. I just think they develop in a vacuum and don't see how this compares with other new class revamps. No new ranger spells, no help on crit/vorpal threat range. No rof/attack speed boost. Nothing that has been discussed over and over on the boards since game release as needed for rangers. Again, not sure why the debs hate this class so much, but it has never been more apparent than this recent pile of S they are trying to put over on us.

Plus, if this is the support tree, it is even more useless until they release what will happen to Tempest and AA. So, thanks for spending development cycles on this useless garbage when you could have been doing something more productive. If dev cycles are so precious these days, make sure what you release is worth the effort. This is not.

[nibel]

Yeah, adds DPS.

AF is DPS right? Aimed Shot is also DPS.

DPS again.

Killer and Merciful Shots are DPS too.

It is and is not "only" DPS. They also enforce a specific playstyle. Something that is not the same thing as just free Melee/Ranged Power.

To exemplify, Fighter's Weapon Specialization feat gives +2 damage to a group of weapons. Most players carry weapons from the same type, so you can assume that they will always get this +2 damage. This is a plain passive DPS boost. No matter what you do, as long as you are not dumb enough to specialize in bludgeoning weapons while your weapon stash is full of axes, it will always count.

Archer's Focus algo give out DPS, but only if you retain a specific playstyle. In this case, standing still while shooting with a ranged weapon. This can not be taken for granted for a large number of reasons: You might want to stay mobile, you need to balance the "standing still" part with the "get new targets on sight" part, an enemy caster can throw an AoE over you and you have to move out, etc, etc. Both situations boils down to "add DPS", but they work in different ways. One is a passive boost. The other is a playstyle choice that gives a reward for keeping within that playstyle.

Personally, I don't like most passive boosts, but a few are necessary here and there. I'm fine with a single T5 option being a passive boost, but they hardly makes a tree interesting. That's one of the reasons why I don't like Harper, for instance. The only thing unique there is the int-to-damage stuff, and everything else is a passive bonus. But then, I digress...

[CeltEireson]

Level 18 core needs something extra, preferably passive - the clicky only has 5 uses and is really only of use against bosses. Boost to attack speed wouldn't go astray here.

Head shot - some additional benefit against favoured enemies? Favoured enemies get stunned if they fail roll, anything else gets blinded. Problem is IPS - you could end up stunning a fair number, maybe make the stun effect a precise shot only effect.

Make it 1d6 per core, with the exception of the capstone which is 2d6.

Personally Id like to see a sniper type stance that doesn't work with manyshot (as in cooldown is so long for it that switching between it and manyshot isn't viable). Increased chance to crit/crit damage and much more single shot damage, even with possibly a reduced attack speed to simulate taking more time to make that perfect shot. Not in favour of insta kills.

Also as someone mentioned before - if the 20% doubleshot bonus remains as the capstone for AA, and assuming the other enhancements in AA get improved as well, the anyone who prefers ranged is almost having to put at least 41 in AA and rest in DWS. No that theres anything wrong with AA, but its not my idea of what an archer is (especially as strictly speaking AA should require the ability to cast level 3 mage spells from memory based on the actual prestige class) and I prefer not to have to worry about my spellpoint pool to use a bow. That and it feels like its reducing choice rather than increasing it. Maybe make the 20% doubleshot a tier 5 in AA instead, and improve both trees to compensate.

[DevilYouKnow]

The issue for me is that this tree now gives you no reason to go beyond 5 or 6 levels of ranger to pull out what you need to further boost another class. I thought the whole concept behind the class revisions was to give you more incentive to be a pure class, not less. If there were some crit range bonus and/or vorpal threat range expansion that some other classes have and were put in the last two core abilities, that would give you at least some reason to go to 18 or 20 ranger. As is, this is a fail compared to what we have seen in other revamps that are live. It is not too late to change, but history shows that once they post it to the boards, it is already set in stone. Overall I am very disappointed and a bit offended that this is what they spent all this time deliberating on. I just think they develop in a vacuum and don't see how this compares with other new class revamps. No new ranger spells, no help on crit/vorpal threat range. No rof/attack speed boost. Nothing that has been discussed over and over on the boards since game release as needed for rangers. Again, not sure why the debs hate this class so much, but it has never been more apparent than this recent pile of S they are trying to put over on us.

Plus, if this is the support tree, it is even more useless until they release what will happen to Tempest and AA. So, thanks for spending development cycles on this useless garbage when you could have been doing something more productive. If dev cycles are so precious these days, make sure what you release is worth the effort. This is not.

Why does it always have to evolve around beind a pure class ? I am really sick of that.

I should not be forced into being a pure class. It is for us to decide what we are after.

Multiclassing is there for a reason.

[Mindos]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Deepwood_Stalker_enhancements

A link the the wiki, so we can all see what it is right meow.

Also, didn't this tree used to be called Deepwood SNIPER? I seem to remember you could fire an arrow of doom without breaking stealth.
Maybe we should be moving back in this direction?

ahh, here is is: http://ddowiki.com/page/Deepwood_Sni..._%28history%29

But no mention of the maintaining stealth, coulda swore that was on the known issues list forever.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Aye, it should be +45 melee/ranged power instead and we badly need a dev to acknowledge this or we are indeed looking at a significant nerf.

In the future I rather fear what might happen to Adrenalines if +400% would at some point become +400 melee/ranged power. Ouch, that would ruin the fun in a most nasty manner futher making LD the only option. But, back on track - +30% haste should be +45 power, thank you very much.

they already did nerf adrenaline to be +400 mp/rp back when those values came out. shortly afterwards, they reverted it to 400% dmg bonus.

[DevilYouKnow]

they already did nerf adrenaline to be +400 mp/rp back when those values came out. shortly afterwards, they reverted it to 400% dmg bonus.

And we all saw how low the dps output was.

[N-0cturn]

I have to say that my understanding of Severlins statement is that Deepwood Sniper is a tree that you would take together with Tempest/Arcane Archer depending if you focus on ranged or melee. This does not have to mean that you should always want to take T5 of AA or Tempest. If the trees are balanced correctly this would be a hard choice.

I agree that the wording "Main DPS" tree was not that great but it won't help to rage and call it a filler tree ...

Ok, now some ideas for the tree. The main theme I see is sneak attack, favored enemies and healing.

Cores:
3: add +1 sneak attack die; Exposing Strike/Sniper Shot and 10 positive Spellpower are ok, but for core 3 it seems a bit lackluster
5: add +1 sneak attack die, Mark of the Hunted also removes immunity to Sneak attack; As it is I feel Core 5 is simply to weak

Tier 2:
Empathic Healing: Spell-like ability: You may expend a use of Animal Empathy to produce a positive energy conjuration that heals 1d6 hit points +1/2 per Ranger levels, every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. 2 AP, 1 Tier. This is a hard one. The current effect is very weak and does not scale at all. But simply adding a better spell would be weird since you can take it at level 2.
Faster Sneaking: 25/50/75% same as assassin

Tier 5:
Stalker Training: Rename "Deadly Stalker" - When Fighting against your favored enemies you add a +1 competence bonus to your critical multiplier. I don't like adding 10 Melee power again. That does little to help the tree. Competence means it does not stack with Swashbuckling or Holy Sword.
Improved Archer's Focus: Leave it as it was
Head Shot/Strike: +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat. On Sneak Attack: The enemy must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Ranger Level + Dexterity bonus + Bonuses to Assassinate) or die instantly. Cooldown 15 second. In Epics instant kill abilities are not that overpowered since Orange named have Deathward. The DC would be okish with +6 from shadowdancer and an assassinate item. Assassins would still be better with Capstone bonus and Measure the foe.

Additionally the Doubleshot penalty after Manyshot has to be removed. That should be a no-brainer.

[barecm]

Why does it always have to evolve around beind a pure class ? I am really sick of that.

I should not be forced into being a pure class. It is for us to decide what we are after.

Multiclassing is there for a reason.

because that was the original point of the whole class rebalancing. People only used Paladin for 2 lvlvs as a splash, rogue same thing. People didn't even bother with barb, etc... I am not advocating for pure classes, but if the devs are going to go down a path, don't abandon it when it comes to their least favorite class (historically speaking) and pump out a load of BS like they are doing now.

[barecm]

I have to say that my understanding of Severlins statement is that Deepwood Sniper is a tree that you would take together with Tempest/Arcane Archer depending if you focus on ranged or melee. This does not have to mean that you should always want to take T5 of AA or Tempest. If the trees are balanced correctly this would be a hard choice.

I agree that the wording "Main DPS" tree was not that great but it won't help to rage and call it a filler tree ...

Ok, now some ideas for the tree. The main theme I see is sneak attack, favored enemies and healing.

Cores:
3: add +1 sneak attack die; Exposing Strike/Sniper Shot and 10 positive Spellpower are ok, but for core 3 it seems a bit lackluster
5: add +1 sneak attack die, Mark of the Hunted also removes immunity to Sneak attack; As it is I feel Core 5 is simply to weak

Tier 2:
Empathic Healing: Spell-like ability: You may expend a use of Animal Empathy to produce a positive energy conjuration that heals 1d6 hit points +1/2 per Ranger levels, every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. 2 AP, 1 Tier. This is a hard one. The current effect is very weak and does not scale at all. But simply adding a better spell would be weird since you can take it at level 2.
Faster Sneaking: 25/50/75% same as assassin

Tier 5:
Stalker Training: Rename "Deadly Stalker" - When Fighting against your favored enemies you add a +1 competence bonus to your critical multiplier. I don't like adding 10 Melee power again. That does little to help the tree. Competence means it does not stack with Swashbuckling or Holy Sword.
Improved Archer's Focus: Leave it as it was
Head Shot/Strike: +5(W) attack that is automatically considered a critical threat. On Sneak Attack: The enemy must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Ranger Level + Dexterity bonus + Bonuses to Assassinate) or die instantly. Cooldown 15 second. In Epics instant kill abilities are not that overpowered since Orange named have Deathward. The DC would be okish with +6 from shadowdancer and an assassinate item. Assassins would still be better with Capstone bonus and Measure the foe.

Additionally the Doubleshot penalty after Manyshot has to be removed. That should be a no-brainer.

I do like the spirit of what you are saying, but an instakill on a ranger would be way too powerful considering IPS would make it instakill everything in one shot every 15 seconds. Too much even for a ranged combat advocate as myself. I would like to see a crit expansion and a vorpal threat expansion within the lvl 18 and 20 cores. Head shot should daze, not blind, or silence much like ear smash.

Without knowing how the other 2 trees will shake out, it is hard to make real suggestions, but I do know what they are proposing here as a "support" tree is not up to par with the other class re-workings.

[Qhualor]

I do like the spirit of what you are saying, but an instakill on a ranger would be way too powerful considering IPS would make it instakill everything in one shot every 15 seconds. Too much even for a ranged combat advocate as myself. I would like to see a crit expansion and a vorpal threat expansion within the lvl 18 and 20 cores. Head shot should daze, not blind, or silence much like ear smash.

Without knowing how the other 2 trees will shake out, it is hard to make real suggestions, but I do know what they are proposing here as a "support" tree is not up to par with the other class re-workings.

every 15 seconds is long compared to the other insta kill spells and abilities that other classes have.

[N-0cturn]

I do like the spirit of what you are saying, but an instakill on a ranger would be way too powerful considering IPS would make it instakill everything in one shot every 15 seconds. Too much even for a ranged combat advocate as myself. I would like to see a crit expansion and a vorpal threat expansion within the lvl 18 and 20 cores. Head shot should daze, not blind, or silence much like ear smash.

Without knowing how the other 2 trees will shake out, it is hard to make real suggestions, but I do know what they are proposing here as a "support" tree is not up to par with the other class re-workings.

Well it would kill everything in a line, that does not have aggro on you and is within your Point Blank Shot Range (granted the range is not an issue with the last core).

I am not necessarily saying that it would not be too good. I think it's hard to say without actually testing how well it works on Lamannia. I just think it would be a cool playstyle to sneak into position and kill several enemies with a headshot.

EDIT: If it would be too good, I guess a stun would fit to a headshot as well. But from a playstyle perspective I think that an instant kill would be better.

Another alternative would be to scrap the DC and simply make it a 30% chance to kill the target if the attack is a sneak attack. This might be even better because it does not force Dex and the power could be adjusted by changing the %.

[davmuzl]

Why does it always have to evolve around beind a pure class ? I am really sick of that.

I should not be forced into being a pure class. It is for us to decide what we are after.

Multiclassing is there for a reason.

It shouldn't go into either direction. But that's the main problem with the current enhancement system. There are so few enhancements that require class levels beyond level 5. If you already want a t5 from another class you only need 4 levels to get almost all the enhancements. There have to be reasons to go with both multiclassing and going pure. The big damage bonuses are mostly locked behind t5 and lvl18+ and instead most of them should be available to EVERY character, regardless of their class choice.

[Faltout]

It is and is not "only" DPS. They also enforce a specific playstyle. Something that is not the same thing as just free Melee/Ranged Power.

It's hard for me to explain this:
Enforcing a certain playstyle is not a pro for the tree. If you wanted ranged DPS while moving fast you could choose other trees (see mechanic). The tree needs to offer some unique abilities and as a challenge enforce the standing still condition (can you -the player- make this tree work with that condition?). Also, if you wanted to play in a certain playstyle you could do that without the need for the tree enforcing it. If you like standing still, you can make any class and then stand still and shoot. That this tree rewards this playstyle is currently irrelevant because there are other trees that offer better rewards for no playstyle.

Now you could argue that this is the reason why players here want more DPS out of those abilities so that if they make the sacrifices of this playstyle they should get better rewards than other trees. Then DDO becomes "In how many ways can you do max damage". You can do max damage by cleaving in large groups of mobs. You can do max damage when pew pewing as a warlock. You can do max damage when running sideways and shooting 10k stars and manyshot. You can do max damage when you stand on one foot, clap your hands above your head and make a grimace. Thing is, there are much more options to DDO than just damage and devs should focus much more on them making their game richer.

Just take a moment to realize how many abilities we have that provide the same amount of damage but differently coated. KotC gets extra damage because he's lawful. Rogue gets extra damage because it's sneak attacking. Ranger gets extra damage because he's close to the enemy. Warlock gets extra damage because he has a pact. Barbarian gets extra damage because he's brutal. Etc. Most of those abilities providing extra damage do not even need a playstyle. Just extra damage supported by "lore" that gets weaker and weaker.

[Fecerak]

I personally think it would be nice to have a tree that is dedicated to giving nice bonuses that aren't necessarily catered to the hardcore DPS is king part of the community but instead maybe gives nice bonuses that allow for unique playstyles for the part of the playerbase that doesn't only want bigger numbers. Why can't the deepwood stalker give you the ability to more efficiently stealth through quests, interact with the quests without necessarily killing everything, give you abilities that are good at killing single important targets while not as good at powering through the quest. It seems to me as if an option like that could really bring something new and exciting to the game that isn't as well supported as it maybe could be.

What about enhancements like:
- Crouching applies invisibility to you for as long as you are crouched.
- Clickie that makes you stay stealthed (and crouched) for X seconds (where x is based on your hide/MS scores) before unstealthing, meaning that if you manage to assassinate the target during those seconds you might not be noticed much at all.
- Abilities that make monsters drop aggro more quickly when they can't detect you such that even if you are detected at some point you might still be able to continue sneaking through the quest.
- Having half your hide/MS scores applied even when not crouching.

Of course, there should still be *some* damage boosts etc. but it would be interesting if the tree's main strengths came from other sources, making rangers have one tree for melee damage, one tree for ranged damage, and one tree that is bad at raiding and worse in groups than the others most of the time but give you lots of interesting options for soloing and so on.

[Mindos]

I do like the spirit of what you are saying, but an instakill on a ranger would be way too powerful considering IPS would make it instakill everything in one shot every 15 seconds. Too much even for a ranged combat advocate as myself. I would like to see a crit expansion and a vorpal threat expansion within the lvl 18 and 20 cores. Head shot should daze, not blind, or silence much like ear smash.

Without knowing how the other 2 trees will shake out, it is hard to make real suggestions, but I do know what they are proposing here as a "support" tree is not up to par with the other class re-workings.

Can't a bard use the ranged selector of Coup De grace and take the Improved Precise Shot line and do the same thing at level 12?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckler...ents#Tier_Five

http://ddowiki.com/page/Improved_Precise_Shot

Well I guess they might have to wait until their Base Attack Bonus is high enough, but a Bard could still do this...

[BigErkyKid]

It's hard for me to explain this:
Enforcing a certain playstyle is not a pro for the tree. If you wanted ranged DPS while moving fast you could choose other trees (see mechanic). The tree needs to offer some unique abilities and as a challenge enforce the standing still condition (can you -the player- make this tree work with that condition?). Also, if you wanted to play in a certain playstyle you could do that without the need for the tree enforcing it. If you like standing still, you can make any class and then stand still and shoot. That this tree rewards this playstyle is currently irrelevant because there are other trees that offer better rewards for no playstyle.

Now you could argue that this is the reason why players here want more DPS out of those abilities so that if they make the sacrifices of this playstyle they should get better rewards than other trees. Then DDO becomes "In how many ways can you do max damage". You can do max damage by cleaving in large groups of mobs. You can do max damage when pew pewing as a warlock. You can do max damage when running sideways and shooting 10k stars and manyshot. You can do max damage when you stand on one foot, clap your hands above your head and make a grimace. Thing is, there are much more options to DDO than just damage and devs should focus much more on them making their game richer.

Just take a moment to realize how many abilities we have that provide the same amount of damage but differently coated. KotC gets extra damage because he's lawful. Rogue gets extra damage because it's sneak attacking. Ranger gets extra damage because he's close to the enemy. Warlock gets extra damage because he has a pact. Barbarian gets extra damage because he's brutal. Etc. Most of those abilities providing extra damage do not even need a playstyle. Just extra damage supported by "lore" that gets weaker and weaker.

Kudos for this. But look at defiler and the rest of that update. Dps is king everywhere. And not been ability based dps, the majority of it is passive dps.

Tactical abilities and strategic interactions are what make the game good. Useless filler in trees and a few boom boom abilities with different skills are just boring.

[Fecerak]

Also, building on my previous post, deepwood sniper could potentially be based on using your spells a bit more than regular rangers maybe giving you some spells off the druid spell list, and making some of the spells with DCs relevant in later content by either giving a huge boost, but only to Ranger spells, not to spells from other classes, or potentially making saves only partly effective against most of their spells, making them basically like a swiss army knife where they have lots of relevant tools for every situation. Probably worse than most other trees in a straight up fight, but with lots of utility that the player can utilize to solve problems in other ways. Maybe even give them an alpha-strike style bonus damage boost. Say +100% damage the first 3 seconds after you have been detected for instance would make the DWS the strongest at ambushing targets in terms of damage (while rogues still have assassinate as their niche) but falls behind when you don't play to their strengths.

[DevilYouKnow]

Kudos for this. But look at defiler and the rest of that update. Dps is king everywhere. And not been ability based dps, the majority of it is passive dps.

Tactical abilities and strategic interactions are what make the game good. Useless filler in trees and a few boom boom abilities with different skills are just boring.

You are going to get kicked if you are not able to put out enough dps, while running defiler of the just for example.

No one wants to spare a spot for a flavor build.