Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Changes

[AbyssalMage]

Currently you are doing exactly what you said you don't want to do Sev. Don't feel like finding your quote but DWS should make players want to put (at least) 41 points in it, taking Tier 5 and Core 6. There are some helpful suggestions found on the preceding pages and I am sure more constructive suggestion will come after me but I really hope this is version 1.4 and version 2.0 or higher looks a whole lot better when it hits Lama-land.

P.S. I am really scared that you are saving AA for after the initial Ranger revamp. You did the same thing for Bard and Rogue and both those revamped tree's stunk. Find a way to release AA with Tempest and DWS, because I like my Rangers If nothing else, release v1.1 AA on Lama-land so you can get quality feedback and maybe it will be ready for U28.1.

[SirValentine]

How about some mild nerfs:
1. Holy sword only works with melee

I really think a Paladin should be able to use Holy weapon spell on their deity's favored weapon. I see where you're coming from, but I don't think melee-only is the right solution.

[AbyssalMage]

Could we see the stats for the DC's expanded to include Intelligence i.e. Dexterity or Intelligence as well please to allow more multi-classing opportunities as well as gelling with the harper tree?

Currently no need to. The DC's are currently found on page 1 (9/12) will be worthless once level is raised to 30 and DC's become more inflated.

I'll wait to see the final product but currently this looks to be on par with Rogue pass, which was a disappointment to me personally. Rogue Mechanic did well, but Assassin and TA were a complete waist of time for the developers.

[DevilYouKnow]

Currently you are doing exactly what you said you don't want to do Sev. Don't feel like finding your quote but DWS should make players want to put (at least) 41 points in it, taking Tier 5 and Core 6. There are some helpful suggestions found on the preceding pages and I am sure more constructive suggestion will come after me but I really hope this is version 1.4 and version 2.0 or higher looks a whole lot better when it hits Lama-land.

P.S. I am really scared that you are saving AA for after the initial Ranger revamp. You did the same thing for Bard and Rogue and both those revamped tree's stunk. Find a way to release AA with Tempest and DWS, because I like my Rangers If nothing else, release v1.1 AA on Lama-land so you can get quality feedback and maybe it will be ready for U28.1.

No, sir. Deepwood is just a filler. They need to concentrate more on tempest and AA.

[mezzorco]

People keep saying DWS is just a filler. How can a tree on its own right be a filler?

Then make it a four-tiers only tree and remove the lvl 20 capstone, since DWS is not intended to be a main tree.

Seriously, such a statement from a Dev is unbearable.

[DevilYouKnow]

People keep saying DWS is just a filler. How can a tree on its own right be a filler?

Then make it a four-tiers only tree and remove the lvl 20 capstone, since DWS is not intended to be a main tree.

Seriously, such a statement from a Dev is unbearable.

To be honest, DWS is just a waste of time and i hope they move on quickly to the more important ones.

I despise DWS.

[Xionanx]

lol

I bet sev is kicking himself right now, as he should be, for making that statement publicly.

I personally think that every tree should be completely viable as a stand alone tree. If I take a class to 20, put 41 points in a Tree, get "Good" (not perfect) gear for that class.. then I SHOULD be capable of soloing at least EN's all the way to 28/30. If thats not possible, then that tree is **** and needs to be redone.

I personally think the development team should look at whats needed at each and every level of play and then match the bonus's for a tree with that tree's ACTUAL PLAYER (NOT INTENDED) play-style to make it viable from level 1 to 20. If, as a DWS, you can't play as a pure DWS from 1-20 with a reasonable expectation of being able to succeed at quests, then there is something wrong. **Note I say PLAYER PLAY-STYLE because we all know that how players actually play is apparently completely different then the way dev's THINK they should/do play.

"Multi-Classing" and "Synergy with other classes/trees" SHOULD NOT FACTOR IN AT ALL FOR A PARTICULAR TREE. Thats something that the players will work out on their own later, after the tree is made, when they start to min/max. Trying to "Counter" min/maxing ahead of time by keeping a tree weak on purpose and/or expecting it to be nothing more then a "Support" tree for the purposes of min/maxing is counter intuitive.

Hopefully you can have the player council members play test leveling a PURE NON-TR RANGER FROM 1-28 AS A 41 POINT DWS and then tell you if it sucks or not... because thats what should be going on.

[DevilYouKnow]

lol

I bet sev is kicking himself right now, as he should be, for making that statement publicly.

I personally think that every tree should be completely viable as a stand alone tree. If I take a class to 20, put 41 points in a Tree, get "Good" (not perfect) gear for that class.. then I SHOULD be capable of soloing at least EN's all the way to 28/30. If thats not possible, then that tree is **** and needs to be redone.

I personally think the development team should look at whats needed at each and every level of play and then match the bonus's for a tree with that tree's ACTUAL PLAYER (NOT INTENDED) play-style to make it viable from level 1 to 20. If, as a DWS, you can't play as a pure DWS from 1-20 with a reasonable expectation of being able to succeed at quests, then there is something wrong. **Note I say PLAYER PLAY-STYLE because we all know that how players actually play is apparently completely different then the way dev's THINK they should/do play.

"Multi-Classing" and "Synergy with other classes/trees" SHOULD NOT FACTOR IN AT ALL FOR A PARTICULAR TREE. Thats something that the players will work out on their own later, after the tree is made, when they start to min/max. Trying to "Counter" min/maxing ahead of time by keeping a tree weak on purpose and/or expecting it to be nothing more then a "Support" tree for the purposes of min/maxing is counter intuitive.

Hopefully you can have the player council members play test leveling a PURE NON-TR RANGER FROM 1-28 AS A 41 POINT DWS and then tell you if it sucks or not... because thats what should be going on.

There always has to be a filler tree. Just take a look at bards and spellsinger, Casters via EK and Clerics aka warpriest.

It all sums up. No need to waste time on such.

[Xionanx]

There always has to be a filler tree. Just take a look at bards and spellsinger, Casters via EK and Clerics aka warpriest.

It all sums up. No need to waste time on such.

?? So.. because those tree's suck and are filler trees, there is no point in FIXING THEM so that they AREN'T just filler tree's?

"The Squeeky Wheel Gets The Grease" ... the WORST tree's should be the the trees that get the most love, so they stop being the worst tree's and become something someone actually wants to be.

[Qhualor]

I wasn't exactly thrilled when I read Sevs post on this tree being a versatile tree, but I don't think we need 2 trees for ranged and 1 tree for melee. there is some difference between AA and DWS, but its always appeared to me as ranger/rogue tree if players wanted to go that route. now the proposed changes looks to have taken that type of build out as a good extra point tree for AA and Tempest. for it to be a standalone tree, you would need to eliminate DWS and replace it with a different ranger prestige that doesn't focus on ranged or dps.

[DevilYouKnow]

?? So.. because those tree's suck and are filler trees, there is no point in FIXING THEM so that they AREN'T just filler tree's?

"The Squeeky Wheel Gets The Grease" ... the WORST tree's should be the the trees that get the most love, so they stop being the worst tree's and become something someone actually wants to be.

Exactly what i mean.

[Vellrad]

I really think a Paladin should be able to use Holy weapon spell on their deity's favored weapon. I see where you're coming from, but I don't think melee-only is the right solution.

So, in other words, remove holy sword from game?
Anyone uses those godawful terible deity weapons on non-flavor self gimped build anyway?
Edit:
I just remindered: longbow is the only good deity weapon in game, so yeah, this nerf hurts melee paladins, but leaves ranger/palading multiclasses unchanged.

[davmuzl]

My main question for this ranger pass is: How is ranger going to be different from other classes, mainly Paladin.
Paladin in my mind should be really strong against undead and evil outsiders (basically top DPS), strong againts other evil/chaotic enemies and mediocre against everything else. Over rangers they have the advantage of being able to survive more damage(they usually wear heavy armor and right now most Paladins use their defense stance) and they have LoH. I would also argue that deathward is more useful than freedom of movement most of the time.

Rangers on the other hand get the ability to focus on both ranged and melee damage at the same time. That's nice, but not really what's going to convince me that ranger is better than Paladin overall.

Basically when rangers and Paladins have the same DPS, it looks like Paladin is the better choice because of better mitigation and utility options.
How powerful do you (Devs) expect the ranger to be after this pass (mainly in terms of DPS)? What reasons do you see to grab a ranger instead of a Paladin?

Edit: It would be nice if these kinds of questions would be adressed in detail before we are told about what the changes exactly are.

I talked to a friend about these changes and we came to the conclusion that it would be good if mark of the hunted made the enemy vulnarable to sneak attacks.

[CeltEireson]

Currently no need to. The DC's are currently found on page 1 (9/12) will be worthless once level is raised to 30 and DC's become more inflated.

I'll wait to see the final product but currently this looks to be on par with Rogue pass, which was a disappointment to me personally. Rogue Mechanic did well, but Assassin and TA were a complete waist of time for the developers.

If youre referring to head shot they did say that anything that improved tactics generally would effect this so I would assume any enhancements, epic destiny abilities and the likes of combat mastery would improve the DC. Whether they also tie it to one of the specific tactics bonuses is another matter.

[barecm]

The question then becomes why don't other classes have a support / complete waste tree? I get that there are limited resources for development, but putting something completely useless out there like this pile of steaming you know what, is offensive. Couple that with the fact that they have been waiting on ranger to be revamped for over 2 years, and this garbage is what they come up with? Please. Put this type of support nonsense tree in a caster class or barb and/or paladin and see what type of reaction you get. I am not sure who thought this was a good idea, but listen to the community on this one. it stinks badly. It is a waste of your development time and will basically make the class worse than it was before. What happened to the idea of getting folks to not just use ranger as a splash class? This is making it even more so. The devs really got it wrong with this one. Bad, bad, bad. Kiss ranger class goodbye. Rangers will now have 2 underpowered trees and one useless one. Good work! We need some new blood in the decision making process because this is awful.

No increase ROF/Attack speed
No crit range expansion
No expanded vorpal range.

All you had to do is look at what other classes are getting and you have the blue print right in front of you. Paladin and Barb both have crit expansion. Rogue is still way better at ranged combat than a ranger. How is that even remotely ok with you guys? I am completely at a loss on how badly you handle the ranger class. I just don't get it.

[nibel]

So, in other words, remove holy sword from game?
Anyone uses those godawful terible deity weapons on non-flavor self gimped build anyway?

That's why they should also give something else to divine classes once you choose your deity, and buff up the divine feats that are currently a weak form of weapon focus (no Melee Power, only work with one weapon). But we are digressing the discussion from Ranger. Let's keep on topic.

Another thing that I think should be implemented with the ranger pass (or shortly after, like they intend to do with AA) is some new spells. Giving rangers good spells to fight for spell slots will make them a tough choice to go 14+ just like Paladin.

[HastyPudding]

There always has to be a filler tree. Just take a look at bards and spellsinger, Casters via EK and Clerics aka warpriest.

It all sums up. No need to waste time on such.

Joking, right? The problem with warpriest and EK is their ter 5's aren't up to par with most of the other 'dps' trees, and also the fact that they're not real DPS trees: they're support, not in the sense that they're a filler tree, but in the sense that they're not full DPS. You wouldn't call cleric's radiant servant or paladin's sacred defender a DPS tree. Having taken both of those trees to tier 5 and capstoned on various characters, they're not made for all-out DPS. Warpriest is a frontline healer, sacred defender is a tank's tank, radiant servant is a true healer, and eldritch knight is a defensive caster.

Now, I got words with you on spellsinger. You might like all of these multiclass or 'spellsinger with a rapier and swashbuckler enhancements' builds, but when built pure and as a spellcaster, a spellsinger is arguably the best in the game when it comes to crowd control/enchantment and party support. I've built entire characters around being an end-game spellsinger, done perfectly well in CCing end-game EE's, healing raids, and providing respectable damage in the form of sonic spells in quests on EH.

Think first before you go spouting this nonsense about filler trees. Not everybody likes nothing but left clicking and damage.

[legendkilleroll]

The question then becomes why don't other classes have a support / complete waste tree? I get that there are limited resources for development, but putting something completely useless out there like this pile of steaming you know what, is offensive. Couple that with the fact that they have been waiting on ranger to be revamped for over 2 years, and this garbage is what they come up with? Please. Put this type of support nonsense tree in a caster class or barb and/or paladin and see what type of reaction you get. I am not sure who thought this was a good idea, but listen to the community on this one. it stinks badly. It is a waste of your development time and will basically make the class worse than it was before. What happened to the idea of getting folks to not just use ranger as a splash class? This is making it even more so. The devs really got it wrong with this one. Bad, bad, bad. Kiss ranger class goodbye. Rangers will now have 2 underpowered trees and one useless one. Good work! We need some new blood in the decision making process because this is awful.

No increase ROF/Attack speed
No crit range expansion
No expanded vorpal range.

All you had to do is look at what other classes are getting and you have the blue print right in front of you. Paladin and Barb both have crit expansion. Rogue is still way better at ranged combat than a ranger. How is that even remotely ok with you guys? I am completely at a loss on how badly you handle the ranger class. I just don't get it.

And i just dont get the people who want to see this as the next OP, FotM, Steamroll all content. Yes improvements are needed but not a copy of all the other trees that already making the game to easy

Yes rangers need to be buffed but no way should they all be going the Barb etc route, its riduculous. As for the bolded part, the community makes it OP then next month complaints begin about how easy it is

Not sure how its worse than before, my friend is ranger, no monk levels, rarely dies in EE and always is up there with DPS, maybe people need to actually start playing properly instead of expecting everything to be Warlock-esque where 1 or 2 buttons wipes everything out.

[legendkilleroll]

Think first before you go spouting this nonsense about filler trees. Not everybody likes nothing but left clicking and damage.

Yup SS isnt a filler tree, he only knows how to activate masters blitz.

[DevilYouKnow]

Yup SS isnt a filler tree, he only knows how to activate masters blitz.

How so ? Even the dev himself stated that it is supposed to be a filler tree.

Not sure what you mean by this ? Translation ?