Worthless Shields

[Eth]

Here is where we disagree. I don't claim that item design has to match FOTM builds, however it has to match some more stable reality of the game.

Small shields have been suboptimal (read junk) for years. Coding additional ones into the game without adding options that allow for good builds to use them is a waste of time. Why? Because the vast majority of people won't use them.

Like accurately described in the OP, before U23 small shields didn't see use at all. The rules where changed in a way that the niche build that is S/B evasion tank, has to use them now.
I still don't get what the complaint is about adding small shields to fill that niche?
If the rule wasn't changed and you could still evade with heavy/tower shields I could see the point. Because than it would literally be only flavor to use a small shield. But it's not.

Yes, it's not powerful, but the reason for small shields to exist, is there.

PS - We should wonder why people don't play staff builds, that for sure. If enough people don't do it it tends to be for a reason.

lol

If "enough people" don't play something, it is certainly for a reason. But those people are not neccessarily right.

It always takes a while for the mainstream to catch up to new things.

[legendkilleroll]

People don't play staff builds?

I haven't played one in epic well before the big enhancement pass but surely since rogue pass they cant be horrible

Not sure I want to compare things to broken trees and druids

[BigErkyKid]

Like accurately described in the OP, before U23 small shields didn't see use at all. The rules where changed in a way that the niche build that is S/B evasion tank, has to use them now.
I still don't get what the complaint is about adding small shields to fill that niche?
If the rule wasn't changed and you could still evade with heavy/tower shields I could see the point. Because than it would literally be only flavor to use a small shield. But it's not.

Yes, it's not powerful, but the reason for small shields to exist, is there.



lol

If "enough people" don't play something, it is certainly for a reason. But those people are not neccessarily right.

It always takes a while for the mainstream to catch up to new things.

Well that niche you mention tends to be a bad idea outside of very specific scenarios.

Do we have such a superabundance of "primary" shields that there is time to code shields that are used only by a tiny fraction of builds in specific scenarios?

As I said, even if builds don't necessarily support small shields via enhancements, they could do so if the stats of the shield were good enough. As the game stands I don't think this is the case and it is certainly not for the crab shield.

In any case I am behind making those neglected pieces of equipment count via item stats and enhancement to support them. What I really dislike is seeing named equipment go to vendor trash. We only get to have a few of those, wasting those opportunities is sad.

[Coyopa]

Just out of spite I hope u28 has a small shield with 15% doublestrike, 20% bashing, 3[2d6] 19-20/x3 and a red, purple and orange slot.

And it's a +8 with the orb bonus.

Or 8% but it's like an insightful bonus and its the only item they ever make with that bonus.

I would want either version of this shield!

[BigErkyKid]

People don't play staff builds?

I haven't played one in epic well before the big enhancement pass but surely since rogue pass they cant be horrible

Not sure I want to compare things to broken trees and druids

The DPS is nice but a tad squishy and self healing has not improved...

All in all a flavor build, which is sad given that rogues just got their pass.

No need to compare them to not WAI builds, a legit barbarian is better.

[legendkilleroll]

No need to compare them to not WAI builds, a legit barbarian is better.

Well i dont want to see every class become a barbarian or paladin but i guess thats the DDO of today where every class has to have top DPS, amazing defense and self heals.

[Eth]

No need to compare them to not WAI builds, a legit barbarian is better.

That's your opinion, not a fact.

[BigErkyKid]

That's your opinion, not a fact.

Obviously. its close to impossible to find a build that is better in every single dimension than another. That's why discussions on it never go anywhere.

But now I am curious: do you think that all in all a rogue staff build is as powerful as a barbarian? Or do I just have your aggro from the previous discussion?

[Eth]

But now I am curious: do you think that all in all a rogue staff build is as powerful as a barbarian?

I played barbarians a lot since they had their pass, but I didn't play rogues other than testing them briefly on lamannia.
So I can only base my comment on someone who I trust when it comes to good builds, who played both classes a lot.

To answer your question: It depends.

Barb is likely the better choice the more undergeared you are and the more you lack past lives.
If you compare both classes on a fully geared out toon with many with past lives, TA is likely to surpass the barb in almost every aspect.

[Coyopa]

Obviously. its close to impossible to find a build that is better in every single dimension than another. That's why discussions on it never go anywhere.

But now I am curious: do you think that all in all a rogue staff build is as powerful as a barbarian? Or do I just have your aggro from the previous discussion?

I'm running a 13 rogue/4 monk/3 fighter build that I just got back to 21st or 22nd level. For now, I've parked it because I am so thoroughly dissatisfied with its defenses. I don't even care about self-healing. I've got that covered well enough with Rejuvenation Cocoon and Heal scrolls. I've got 25 PRR from Stalwart Defender stance and I can get another 15 from Mountain Stance. In total, I can get my PRR to 55 (no AP available to take the Shintao enhancement that gives additional PRR while in Mountain Stance), and I can't remember where the other 15 PRR comes from. Anyway, it doesn't really matter where it comes from because 55 is still too low. It's a shame, too, because I really enjoy the build. I'm just sick of playing builds in epic levels that are either not survivable (13 rogue/4 monk/3 fighter, 11 ranger/6 monk/3 paladin) or have slightly higher survivability and also have low DPS (18 druid/2 ranger, spell and bow user). So, the only ones not parked so far are my 18 bard/2 rogue swashbuckler, my 24 paladin (formerly 24 cleric), and my 23 rogue. I'm currently working on an arti/rogue split TR that may become a paladin/rogue/arti split (and is already LG in order to make that possible).

[Nightmanis]

I'm running a 13 rogue/4 monk/3 fighter build that I just got back to 21st or 22nd level. For now, I've parked it because I am so thoroughly dissatisfied with its defenses. I don't even care about self-healing. I've got that covered well enough with Rejuvenation Cocoon and Heal scrolls. I've got 25 PRR from Stalwart Defender stance and I can get another 15 from Mountain Stance. In total, I can get my PRR to 55 (no AP available to take the Shintao enhancement that gives additional PRR while in Mountain Stance), and I can't remember where the other 15 PRR comes from. Anyway, it doesn't really matter where it comes from because 55 is still too low. It's a shame, too, because I really enjoy the build. I'm just sick of playing builds in epic levels that are either not survivable (13 rogue/4 monk/3 fighter, 11 ranger/6 monk/3 paladin) or have slightly higher survivability and also have low DPS (18 druid/2 ranger, spell and bow user). So, the only ones not parked so far are my 18 bard/2 rogue swashbuckler, my 24 paladin (formerly 24 cleric), and my 23 rogue. I'm currently working on an arti/rogue split TR that may become a paladin/rogue/arti split (and is already LG in order to make that possible).

I had a 28 Pure fighter Kensei Vanguard that I changed to a 18/2 Rogue Arti GXbow user just for a change of pace. He was terrible as a fighter because Kensei require so much to be effective, yet it isn't. What sucked is I wanted to have the Kensei Capstone, the 18 core of vanguard, stalwart and KTA. I could have 3 of those, but not KTA no matter how I did it. So I decided to go rogue to make farming easier for past lives, destinies and whatever else I happen to want.

I know the feeling about your rogue though. I'm currently working on upping the defenses of mine (who will become a 13 rogue 4 Fighter 3 monk unarmed build) so that she's more survivable. She's currently bladeforged for the SLA, and if I go ahead and get all the past lives for PRR I can pull off 126 standing without mythic bonuses or twists. It's so expensive to pull off that kind of PRR that it takes away from a lot else in the build :/

[Chai]

I think the devs should respond to small shields the same way they responded to bucklers and light weapons, all which tended to be "objectively worthless" - create a niche for them which is no longer objectively worthless.

Swashbuckler made weapons like light picks, light maces, and hand axes relevant for any build using 3 or more levels of bard for swashbuckler, and SWF combat style.

[Coyopa]

I had a 28 Pure fighter Kensei Vanguard that I changed to a 18/2 Rogue Arti GXbow user just for a change of pace. He was terrible as a fighter because Kensei require so much to be effective, yet it isn't. What sucked is I wanted to have the Kensei Capstone, the 18 core of vanguard, stalwart and KTA. I could have 3 of those, but not KTA no matter how I did it. So I decided to go rogue to make farming easier for past lives, destinies and whatever else I happen to want.

I know the feeling about your rogue though. I'm currently working on upping the defenses of mine (who will become a 13 rogue 4 Fighter 3 monk unarmed build) so that she's more survivable. She's currently bladeforged for the SLA, and if I go ahead and get all the past lives for PRR I can pull off 126 standing without mythic bonuses or twists. It's so expensive to pull off that kind of PRR that it takes away from a lot else in the build :/

I feel your pain when it comes to a pure fighter. I have a first-life pure fighter who's been parked at 17th level for probably close to 3 years. He's mostly a bank toon, now. I originally set him up as a TWF khopesh build. I found that to be too much like some of my other characters (rogue, monk) since they all use TWF and rogues and monks have more interesting abilities. I changed him to S&B khopesh and then found out that the human male attack animations were screwed up where they all did a little hop to the left on the fourth swing. It made me feel like I was playing a typewriter: swing, swing, swing, swing, hop to the left (repeat 3x or 4x), run to the right, repeat. Drove me nuts and so I parked him. (I'm still not sure they ever fixed that problem, actually.) With all the changes to the game since (and the lack of changes to Kensai), I haven't been able to get motivated to do anything with him. Sometimes I think about changing his class entirely, and then I even lose the motivation to plan out what I would do.

It's painful (for me) to farm epic past lives. Heroic past lives aren't much better, really. Mainly, I TR if I have an idea for a new build that I want to try out or if I want to run through the heroic levels again for fun. As for the expense of getting a high PRR on a class that has only sources with low PRR as viable options, yeah. The trade-off for evasion and high dodge doesn't really compensate. I've got 34% dodge on my 11 ranger/6 monk/3 paladin with 250 healing amp and he still takes way too much damage. I set him up to use longswords (because I thought the idea is cool). Maybe I should try getting him through some CITW runs and get him an Agony and a Celestia and switch him to a shortsword user instead.

[Hafeal]

There are a lot of weapons out there, but many players stick to just a few. Example is many of the Monk weapons - When was the last time you saw a monk player using one of those? I know the last monk I saw using weapons and not fists was using shortswords.

LIAR! You ran with Terag this past week. Q-staff build on his Monk life!! You may have been in an alt. At least I think that was you. Maybe. Then again, you are avoiding me 'cause you don't want your SS to show up on the guild web site ...

People, Dare to be different! You don't all need the same cookie cutter min/max builds. Variety is the spice of life.

Should we also complain that they added 3 named quarterstaffs in the last 3 updates, even though barely anyone plays staff builds?

Do I look like "barely anyone"!?! C'mon, you know the game is designed around my needs. I am sure the devs saw my Q-staff build for my Monk life and decided to help a brother out.

[BigErkyKid]

I played barbarians a lot since they had their pass, but I didn't play rogues other than testing them briefly on lamannia.
So I can only base my comment on someone who I trust when it comes to good builds, who played both classes a lot.

To answer your question: It depends.

Barb is likely the better choice the more undergeared you are and the more you lack past lives.
If you compare both classes on a fully geared out toon with many with past lives, TA is likely to surpass the barb in almost every aspect.

I have played quite a few q staff builds before the pass. My impression is that yes, almost everything is more gear intensive than a barbarian. However, even at the top, I think a rogue is far more stressful to play and generally speaking luck based.

The natural sf healing of the barbarian, together with its tons of free hamp, make it a very reliable sturdy toon with awesome Dps. The rogue has worse aoe since it relies a lot more on attack speed and dbs. It is also prone to suffering damage spikes that kill it and is somehow squishy. All in all very delicate to play and that's what made me give up on it. It seemed to be that the permfornance is a lot more irregular.

I d be all for having a glass cannon but right now it seems to me that this is too much the case.

[LightBear]

Staff builds are great, both rogue or monk, tho multiclassing rogue and monk excels at staffs.
The best thing is that there isn't an absolute need for an iconic race to be good at it.

[Coyopa]

Staff builds are great, both rogue or monk, tho multiclassing rogue and monk excels at staffs.
The best thing is that there isn't an absolute need for an iconic race to be good at it.

Yes, the dps is great. It's a fun build to play ... until you reach epic levels and start getting two-shotted on a regular basis. It's bad enough that I was seriously tempted to change his name to Imarockin Yer Pocket ... but self-control got the better of me and I decided to just shelve him for right now.

[Hafeal]

Yes, the dps is great. It's a fun build to play ... until you reach epic levels and start getting two-shotted on a regular basis. It's bad enough that I was seriously tempted to change his name to Imarockin Yer Pocket ... but self-control got the better of me and I decided to just shelve him for right now.

I just hit 20 ... you have me worried ... I mean I keep reading all these posts about how easy the game is, surely, ANY build can walk through the park of EE with a massive dps Q-Staff build. No?

[Coyopa]

I just hit 20 ... you have me worried ... I mean I keep reading all these posts about how easy the game is, surely, ANY build can walk through the park of EE with a massive dps Q-Staff build. No?

lol There is the possibility that I have overlooked some source of PRR. Though, I can't see how since it's a build that can only wear pajamas, can't use a shield, and so has to rely on stances and augments for PRR. Maybe my twitch skills are too low for such a build. I don't know.

[IronClan]

Staff builds problems are currently mostly itemization, recent staffs have come out with normal die sizes and the staff builds secret in the past has been + W and expanded crit profiles leading to staffs that had better base DPS than greataxes. Couple with shadow veil and mountain stance 28% dodge and displacement clickies and 100 ish PRR along with evasion and BF recon SLA = very high DPS and survival before barb passive heals iddqd mode took the shine off them.