Monk un-centering with certain weapons they are proficient with natively.

[Certon]

Monks are given the weapon proficiencies of Club, Dagger, Handaxe, Heavy Crossbow, Kama, Light Crossbow, Quarterstaff, Shuriken, and Unarmed. If these weapons are a native monk proficiency, then why do they become un-centered when using the Club, Dagger, Handaxe, Heavy Crossbow, and Light Crossbow?

I believe this is a glaring oversight in the original development of the monk class, and it should be addressed. None of these weapons should un-center a monk if they are base proficiencies. That makes no sense.

Can I get an official response on this? Why would anyone use these weapons, and hence, why would the developers even bother to create such a penalty that the core classes central power is invalidated by a native ability?

I suggest monks not be un-centered with weapons the base monk class is proficient with. Easy fix. Either take those weapon proficiencies away, or make them centered with them.

[Grailhawk]

I suggest monks not be un-centered with weapons the base monk class is proficient with. Easy fix. Either take those weapon proficiencies away, or make them centered with them.

/signed

[Vargouille]

I believe this is a glaring oversight in the original development of the monk class, and it should be addressed. None of these weapons should un-center a monk if they are base proficiencies. That makes no sense.

Can I get an official response on this? Why would anyone use these weapons, and hence, why would the developers even bother to create such a penalty that the core classes central power is invalidated by a native ability?

Answering "Why?" for DDO:

It's by the book. The Player's Hand Book, p39:
"... a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows" (emphasis added)

It's very explicit that monks receive the proficiencies but can't use all of those weapons with the various special monk abilities.

That doesn't necessarily mean it must always-forever be that way, but there should be a somewhat compelling reason to change it to be otherwise. This doesn't seem particularly harmful and may in (quite) rare cases be helpful to have access to extra proficiences.

[HatsuharuZ]

Answering "Why?" for DDO:

It's by the book. The Player's Hand Book, p39:
"... a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows" (emphasis added)

It's very explicit that monks receive the proficiencies but can't use all of those weapons with the various special monk abilities.

That doesn't necessarily mean it must always-forever be that way, but there should be a somewhat compelling reason to change it to be otherwise. This doesn't seem particularly harmful and may in (quite) rare cases be helpful to have access to extra proficiences.

I can think of a few reasons to allow monks to use Daggers. After all, the Ninja Spy tree gives shortsword proficiency, and a shortsword isn't much different from a dagger.

Secondly, centered dagger usage would open up new synergies between rogues and monks.

Finally, there are more than a few caster daggers, which would be good for any Henshin Mystic monks who would want to use weapons other than q-staves. Not to mention warlock/monk builds which may want to specialize in force and/or fire elements.

[Grailhawk]

Answering "Why?" for DDO:

It's by the book. The Player's Hand Book, p39:
"... a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows" (emphasis added)

It's very explicit that monks receive the proficiencies but can't use all of those weapons with the various special monk abilities.

That doesn't necessarily mean it must always-forever be that way, but there should be a somewhat compelling reason to change it to be otherwise. This doesn't seem particularly harmful and may in (quite) rare cases be helpful to have access to extra proficiences.

That passage is limited to Furry of Blows which in ddo is the ~10% alacrity bonus (its in the animation) that monks get when fighting unarmed along with the full stat damage to off hand attacks. They don't even get that bonus with other "special weapons".

The other non-special weapons should allow ki generation and not uncenter just not gain a bonus from furry of blows. Two different things IMO.

[Ovrad]

That passage is limited to Furry of Blows which in ddo is the ~10% alacrity bonus (its in the animation) that monks get when fighting unarmed along with the full stat damage to off hand attacks. They don't even get that bonus with other "special weapons".

The other non-special weapons should allow ki generation and not uncenter just not gain a bonus from furry of blows. Two different things IMO.

Agreed. Monks are already slower with weapons. Uncentering just makes them completely worthless instead of simply non-optimal.

[unbongwah]

It's a little disingenuous for both sides to keep running back to PnP rules, IMHO, because there are a lot of deviations already from 3E monks. E.g., I don't recall stances existing in PnP, nor even the use of the term "centering." Ki generation to power monk special abilities is also a DDO invention, IIRC. And need I even mentions the PrEs and EDs?

What it boils down to is "it works this way because Turbine sez it works this way." Arguing for changes based on PnP rules is kinda like trying to rules-lawyer the DM about their homebrew campaign; even if you can mount a convincing argument, good luck tilting at that windmill.

[Grailhawk]

Answering "Why?" for DDO:

It's by the book. The Player's Hand Book, p39:
"... a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows" (emphasis added)

It's very explicit that monks receive the proficiencies but can't use all of those weapons with the various special monk abilities.

That doesn't necessarily mean it must always-forever be that way, but there should be a somewhat compelling reason to change it to be otherwise. This doesn't seem particularly harmful and may in (quite) rare cases be helpful to have access to extra proficiences.

I'm going off the SRD right now but will check the book when I get home but if you use that passage as a rule for centering then monks shouldn't get 1.5 STR when centered and using a Quarterstaff.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

Maybe this is something to think about when you get around to doing a monk pass but Furry of Blows IMO should be a bonus for using monk special weapons not a rule to restrict monks to special weapons which the current implementation of centering does.

Sorry for the rules lawyering cant really help myself even when I know i should...

[Grailhawk]

What it boils down to is "it works this way because Turbine sez it works this way." Arguing for changes based on PnP rules is kinda like trying to rules-lawyer the DM about their homebrew campaign; even if you can mount a convincing argument, good luck tilting at that windmill.

Been there done that will be there again some day im sure...

[Thar]

Answering "Why?" for DDO:

It's by the book. The Player's Hand Book, p39:
"... a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows" (emphasis added)

It's very explicit that monks receive the proficiencies but can't use all of those weapons with the various special monk abilities.

That doesn't necessarily mean it must always-forever be that way, but there should be a somewhat compelling reason to change it to be otherwise. This doesn't seem particularly harmful and may in (quite) rare cases be helpful to have access to extra proficiences.

1) being centered in DDO isn't exactly the same as PNP. I lose more than one combat round trying to find and click the appropriate weapon, and then find and click to go back in stance and then go back to finding or dodging my attacker as they now kicked me down half my hp due to loss of AC/PRR (since earth stance is mandatory)
2) ddo is quite different then the phb. Don't think we want to open that can of worms, but intrepretation is up to the Devs...
3) even those weapons that are stated to work like those bows with the feat that i can't remember that lets you remain centered. Ki isn't built up on hit with ranged so it makes all ki abillites almost unuseable.
4) if your a monk and know a weapon and take two weapon fighting why shouldn't this be possible. Throughout martial arts many weapons are used in both hands. daggers = sai, clubs = various blunt ninja weapons, long sword = katanas, short sword ninja-to, etc? just because ddo doesn't have a martial arts version doesn't mean they should be limited.

[Saekee]

I can think of a few reasons to allow monks to use Daggers. After all, the Ninja Spy tree gives shortsword proficiency, and a shortsword isn't much different from a dagger.

Secondly, centered dagger usage would open up new synergies between rogues and monks.

Finally, there are more than a few caster daggers, which would be good for any Henshin Mystic monks who would want to use weapons other than q-staves. Not to mention warlock/monk builds which may want to specialize in force and/or fire elements.

Daggers are too 'street' to be zen.

The synergy you are thinking of is knife spec but it is not worth it if you are assassinating=pure rogue (you could dual wield EMGs though since they are kukris and centering for
monks). Otherwise, staff, stunner or star chucker for great rogue monk synergies (my sig details long swords but it is not great dps).

The easiest thing re proficiencies like handaxes is to simply get rid of the proficiency instead of making such weapons centering...

[HuneyMunster]

Daggers are too 'street' to be zen.

Are Sai not technically daggers? Even a fair few of daggers in ddo look a lot like sai including greensteel daggers.

The synergy you are thinking of is knife spec but it is not worth it if you are assassinating=pure rogue (you could dual wield EMGs though since they are kukris and centering for
monks). Otherwise, staff, stunner or star chucker for great rogue monk synergies (my sig details long swords but it is not great dps).

The easiest thing re proficiencies like handaxes is to simply get rid of the proficiency instead of making such weapons centering..

I doubt there was any intention to be an assassinating Ninja Assassin, but there are synergies between the 2 class trees. Currently you are limited to just 1 weapon if you want to get the rogue tier 5 knife spec as monk with a rogue splash.

I don't see why either Sai can't be added to Ninja Spy's Basic Ninja Training and just allow the monks to treat daggers as Sai, or as a new exotic weapon added as another centered weapon with knife spec from assassin including them for rogue proficiency to make them useful to more than just one build.

[Saekee]

Are Sai not technically daggers? Even a fair few of daggers in ddo look a lot like sai including greensteel daggers.



I doubt there was any intention to be an assassinating Ninja Assassin, but there are synergies between the 2 class trees. Currently you are limited to just 1 weapon if you want to get the rogue tier 5 knife spec as monk with a rogue splash.

I don't see why either Sai can't be added to Ninja Spy's Basic Ninja Training and just allow the monks to treat daggers as Sai, or as a new exotic weapon added as another centered weapon with knife spec from assassin including them for rogue proficiency to make them useful to more than just one build.

they might look like daggers but they have no relationship to them. My limited understanding of them is that they are a defensive weapon used to trap swords and other weapons. They do not even have a blade, more like a mini pole that goes to a blunt point. A lot of DDO short swords look oddly like them.
It is a whole other discussion to add more martial arts weapons like the sai, nunchuck etc.

[Firewall]

I can't see why monks can use quarterstaves and be centered but not clubs. Not sure what ddo rules would say about being centered with nunchakus.
In DDO play this is especially bothersome in cases like e.g. TOEE where you have to hit the Earth Ellies with a club but become uncentered (and thus being quite less able to hit them on EE).
Even the scepter in Rainbow in the Dark was changed back then so that monks could be centered with it when running through the quest.

[Certon]

Answering "Why?" for DDO:

It's by the book. The Player's Hand Book, p39:
"... a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows" (emphasis added)

It's very explicit that monks receive the proficiencies but can't use all of those weapons with the various special monk abilities.

That doesn't necessarily mean it must always-forever be that way, but there should be a somewhat compelling reason to change it to be otherwise. This doesn't seem particularly harmful and may in (quite) rare cases be helpful to have access to extra proficiences.

Vargouille. I understand they'd lose flurry of blows, but to be taken out of stance as well, seems kind of a harsh treatment for equipping a weapon all monks can use. Is there a way monks can remain centered AND lose flurry of blows while one of these weapons is equipped? As it seems to stand now, monks are almost completely 'monkless' when wielding a handaxe.

Not only that, but your rule quote mentions only the off-hand. I never noticed that before--nevermind, i read that last part out of context. It was just discussing an off-hand situation. Still, as far as becoming uncentered... what do you think?

[JOTMON]

I would have liked to have seen a Kensai variant tree for monks (aka weaponmaster) that lets them be centered with weapons without having to splash 8 levels of fighter.
Never did understand why there was the requirement for Greater Weapon Focus (a Fighter only level 8+ feat )in a tree that only requires 5 levels of fighter to take tier 5, No other enhancement tree works this way.

...also.. give some low hanging fruit in the enhancement tree that lets monks pick a finessable weapon to remain centered with..
Ninja spy came close with centering shortswords in the opening core abilities.. 1 AP and you can be centered with Shortswords..

I would have liked to have played a dual wilding light mace (sticks) monk, but that was never a possibility due to the uncentering aspect.
or rogue/ninja spy combo using daggers/kukri's...or even a Dwarven handaxe monk...

...hopefully waiting for the rest of those light finessable weapons to become useful while remaining centered...

[Certon]

Answering "Why?" for DDO:

It's by the book. The Player's Hand Book, p39:
"... a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows" (emphasis added)

It's very explicit that monks receive the proficiencies but can't use all of those weapons with the various special monk abilities.

That doesn't necessarily mean it must always-forever be that way, but there should be a somewhat compelling reason to change it to be otherwise. This doesn't seem particularly harmful and may in (quite) rare cases be helpful to have access to extra proficiences.

You want a compelling argument? Simple. What I said before, laid out simply with words you quoted:

"...a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows"

They cannot strike with flurry of blows. It is the only penalty implied. They keep their AC, dodge bonuses, etc. Fair enough. Have it suppress flurry of blows when they have the other weapon types they are proficient with equipped, and only allow them to attack with flurry of blows if they've gone through the trouble of multiclassing and taking the tier 5 Kensai enhancement One With the Blade.

It is completely unfair (and not well thought out by the original developers of the monk class in DDO) that monks lose virtually ALL of their abilities (by virtue of being uncentered) when using a weapon they are natively proficient in through their class and not through feat selection extraneous to that class.

On top of that, allowing monks to use these weapons while staying in stance would allow more variety through multiclassing. A Monk/Rogue would be able to use a classic Shortsword/Dagger combination. A Shintao Monk could use two clubs. A ranger/monk could be more than just a deep splash combination, with Zen Archery available, they could wield handaxes in Earth Stance for incredible critical damage potential and decent PRR. Heck, with handaxes and clubs available while centered, we could see single weapon fighting monks!

There are some very interesting combinations if you think about it--

[Grailhawk]

You want a compelling argument? Simple. What I said before, laid out simply with words you quoted:

"...a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows"

They cannot strike with flurry of blows. It is the only penalty implied. They keep their AC, dodge bonuses, etc. Fair enough. Have it suppress flurry of blows when they have the other weapon types they are proficient with equipped, and only allow them to attack with flurry of blows if they've gone through the trouble of multiclassing and taking the tier 5 Kensai enhancement One With the Blade.

It is completely unfair (and not well thought out by the original developers of the monk class in DDO) that monks lose virtually ALL of their abilities (by virtue of being uncentered) when using a weapon they are natively proficient in through their class and not through feat selection extraneous to that class.

On top of that, allowing monks to use these weapons while staying in stance would allow more variety through multiclassing. A Monk/Rogue would be able to use a classic Shortsword/Dagger combination. A Shintao Monk could use two clubs. A ranger/monk could be more than just a deep splash combination, with Zen Archery available, they could wield handaxes in Earth Stance for incredible critical damage potential and decent PRR. Heck, with handaxes and clubs available while centered, we could see single weapon fighting monks!

There are some very interesting combinations if you think about it--

What you need to keep in mind when going on this subject is what unbongwah said:

It's a little disingenuous for both sides to keep running back to PnP rules, IMHO, because there are a lot of deviations already from 3E monks. E.g., I don't recall stances existing in PnP, nor even the use of the term "centering." Ki generation to power monk special abilities is also a DDO invention, IIRC. And need I even mentions the PrEs and EDs?

What it boils down to is "it works this way because Turbine sez it works this way." Arguing for changes based on PnP rules is kinda like trying to rules-lawyer the DM about their homebrew campaign; even if you can mount a convincing argument, good luck tilting at that windmill.

They deviated so much from PnP rules with monks that they really can say it works however they want it to. I agree that centered and Fury of blow should be considered different things but if they want to say that centered/ki is what they did for fury of blows then so be it.