The Cunning Warchanter: Maximizing tactics

[BigErkyKid]

Hello forumites,


I am bored of melee builds that are simply DPS (cough cough barbarian) with little to no regards to the timing of abilities or in game tactical decisions limited to how many mobs you gather to cleave down. So that got me thinking, what is the best tactical build I can conceive? It has to be a build that uses abilities that are relevant in the current state of the game and it has to use the most possible in a single build. In addition, it has to put out respectable DPS even against mobs that can resist tactics (red named). Please do drop by and leave your comments, I am still considering which build to use.

The worthwhile abilities considered so far are (based on effectiveness / cool down):

Freeze (bard)
Spinning ice (bard)
Knockout (barbarian)
Trip
Stunning blow
Stunning shield (vanguard)
Shield rush (vanguard)
Shield charge (vanguard)
Anvil of thunder (legendary dreadnaught)
Lay waste (legendary dreadnaught)
Balanced attacks (primal avatar)
Stunning fist (monk)
Kukan-do (monk)

The build also needs to be able to fit in know the angles, which is the ultimate DC increase (way better than divine might).

A first possibility: Bard 16, fighter 2, barbarian 2

Combat abilities (in parenthesis, cool downs / DCs):
Freeze (bard) (6 / 73)
Spinning ice (bard) (25 / 77)
Knockout (barbarian) (12 / No save)
Trip (15 / 76)
Stunning blow (15 / 76)
Stunning shield (vanguard) (30 / sky high))
Anvil of thunder (legendary dreadnaught) (12 / 30% chance no save)
Lay waste (legendary dreadnaught) (cleave dependent / 65)
Otto's irresistible dance (5.5 / No save just spell resist)

Enhancements
Occult slayer: 8 (knockout)
Warchanter: 38 (spinning ice, chant of power, howl of the north)
Swash: 17 (resonant arms and skirmisher)
Human: 1 (damage boost)
Vanguard: 8 (stunning shield and DCs)
Harper: 8 (Know the angles)

Stats:
Strength: 64 (17 initial + 7 level ups + 5 tome + 2 completionist + 2 warchanter + 2 inspire excellence + 4 tenser's + 4 skaldic rage + 5 primal scream + 2 ship buff + 11 regular item + 2 insight + 1 exceptional)
Charisma: 42 (15 initial + 5 tome + 2 completionist + 2 swash + 2 inspire excellence + 2 ship buff + 1 regular item + 2 insight + 1 exceptional)
Intelligence: 38 (15 initia + 3 tome + 2 completionist + 2 inspire excellence + ship buff + 11 regular item + 2 insight + 1 exceptional)

Damage mod: pending (inspire heroics from war chanter, shield bonus from VG, LD bonus, KTA, strength, item)

Epic destinies:
Legendary dreadnaught

Twists
Sense weakness
Legendary shield mastery
Cocoon

Equipment
Handaxe: 15-20/x3 & 19-20/x7 (overwhelming critical, howl of the north, devastating critical, headman's chop).

[unbongwah]

Freeze (bard)
Spinning ice (bard)
Knockout (barbarian)
Stunning shield (vanguard)
Shield charge (vanguard)
Lay waste (legendary dreadnaught)

First thought for these abilities: a CHA+INT-based PDK bard 14 / barb 2 / ftr 4 build using short swords; CKT + KtA for dmg + DC bonus. APs are too tight, though: 33 APs WC (Spinning Ice), 11 APs SB (Skirmisher), 23 APs VG (Shield Charge), 8 APs OS (Knockout), 8 APs Harper (KtA), 3 APs PDK (CKT), which leaves...-6 APs. Umm, oops. Personally I'm underwhelmed by Shield Charge, so I would probably drop that. You could use b.swords instead of short swords and drop SB, but that's a major DPS loss, I think.

[BigErkyKid]

First thought for these abilities: a CHA+INT-based PDK bard 14 / barb 2 / ftr 4 build using short swords; CKT + KtA for dmg + DC bonus. APs are too tight, though: 33 APs WC (Spinning Ice), 11 APs SB (Skirmisher), 23 APs VG (Shield Charge), 8 APs OS (Knockout), 8 APs Harper (KtA), 3 APs PDK (CKT), which leaves...-6 APs. Umm, oops. Personally I'm underwhelmed by Shield Charge, so I would probably drop that. You could use b.swords instead of short swords and drop SB, but that's a major DPS loss, I think.

You were too fast for me!

I had in mind a 15 bard 3 fighter 2 barb (or 16 2 2 but 3 allows for lesser defensive if that feels needed). Notice that with good buffs the best route is to go str based then use kta. The alternative is divine might (my original intention) but that not only locks a class without real tactics but also gives you way less in the way of dcs. Every 2 points of cha are half a dc point whereas every 2 int points are directly a dc for all abilities.

I was going to go for knockout too, drop shield charge and take only shield stun tops. The rest have long cool downs. Also 15+ bard allows for inspire excellence and everyone loves that.

With kta you can take hand axe which is more dps than short swords and go str plus int damage. Ima a tad afraid about no evasion on a lightly armored toon. Also considering using dwarxes for less dps but heavy armor...which could be a swap I guess if need be.

Also considered dropping fighter for rogue and be defensive but seems against spirit of build.

I ll share with you my numbers, I'm excited to make this work and your feedback is always top notch.

[BigErkyKid]

You were too fast for me!

I had in mind a 15 bard 3 fighter 2 barb (or 16 2 2 but 3 allows for lesser defensive if that feels needed). Notice that with good buffs the best route is to go str based then use kta. The alternative is divine might (my original intention) but that not only locks a class without real tactics but also gives you way less in the way of dcs. Every 2 points of cha are half a dc point whereas every 2 int points are directly a dc for all abilities.

I was going to go for knockout too, drop shield charge and take only shield stun tops. The rest have long cool downs. Also 15+ bard allows for inspire excellence and everyone loves that.

With kta you can take hand axe which is more dps than short swords and go str plus int damage. Ima a tad afraid about no evasion on a lightly armored toon. Also considering using dwarxes for less dps but heavy armor...which could be a swap I guess if need be.

Also considered dropping fighter for rogue and be defensive but seems against spirit of build.

I ll share with you my numbers, I'm excited to make this work and your feedback is always top notch.

I meant war hammers, dwarxes were for the other build I had in mind ????

[unbongwah]

Every 2 points of cha are half a dc point whereas every 2 int points are directly a dc for all abilities.

Interesting point, so perhaps it's better to go INT primary, CHA secondary: still gain some benefit from CKT as long as CHA > STR; but more DPS & DC bonuses from max INT rather than max CHA. That presumes you don't plan to use anything else based on CHA, like bard spells.

Couple of other comments:

• Warchanter DCs (Frozen Fury, Spinning Ice) are based on on CHA + bard lvls. It appears the DC bonuses from CKT and KtA stack, though I haven't been able to test that to confirm. Stunning bonuses inc. VG Brutality also apply. I think both abilities will also proc Follow Up if you have it, but need to double-check.
• Vanguard DCs (Stunning Shield, Shield Rush) are based on highest stat; they should benefit from CKT+KtA, but I need to test that. I think I read the knockdown DC from Shield Rush is bugged, but I've not tested it in a while. Downside is shield dmg is always based on STR; CKT, Strategic Combat, etc. doesn't override that.

With kta you can take hand axe which is more dps than short swords and go str plus int damage.

Downside to that is you lose DC bonus from CKT. With the ridiculous amount of stat inflation in DDO, it shouldn't be hard to hit, say, CHA 40 (+15 mod), which would be +5 to DCs. Particularly on a heavily-MCed bard like this, which hurts WC DCs, you will want all the DC bumps you can get, IMHO.

[BigErkyKid]

Interesting point, so perhaps it's better to go INT primary, CHA secondary: still gain some benefit from CKT as long as CHA > STR; but more DPS & DC bonuses from max INT rather than max CHA. That presumes you don't plan to use anything else based on CHA, like bard spells.

Couple of other comments:

• Warchanter DCs (Frozen Fury, Spinning Ice) are based on on CHA + bard lvls. It appears the DC bonuses from CKT and KtA stack, though I haven't been able to test that to confirm. Stunning bonuses inc. VG Brutality also apply. I think both abilities will also proc Follow Up if you have it, but need to double-check.
• Vanguard DCs (Stunning Shield, Shield Rush) are based on highest stat; they should benefit from CKT+KtA, but I need to test that. I think I read the knockdown DC from Shield Rush is bugged, but I've not tested it in a while. Downside is shield dmg is always based on STR; CKT, Strategic Combat, etc. doesn't override that.

Downside to that is you lose DC bonus from CKT. With the ridiculous amount of stat inflation in DDO, it shouldn't be hard to hit, say, CHA 40 (+15 mod), which would be +5 to DCs. Particularly on a heavily-MCed bard like this, which hurts WC DCs, you will want all the DC bumps you can get, IMHO.

Here is what I "discovered" crunching some numbers: it is still best to go STR based (as opposed to CHA) and use STR to damage and then combine it with KTA. It is best for DPS and for DCs. I did make a blunder in my previous post stating KTA uses directly the INT modifier to tactics. That's not true. It uses half the INT modifier so it is effectively like DM but has the advantage that buffs ALL DCs, so it is still better.

For instance, in my case, with a 16/2/2 (bard, fighter, barb) I could reach 65 (27 mod) STR with buffs (tensers, primal scream, excellence, skaldic rage and I don't recall if rage spell stacks but then add two more edit duh does not stack with primal scream). This is more than a multi classed bard can achieve in CHA and I "only" used a +5 tome. At the same time, I am counting on an INT of 38 buffed (not crazy high, no consumables used and a lowly +3 tome). CHA is a lowish 42.

This leaves me with the following DCs:

Freeze: 10 base + 8 bard + 16 CHA + 3 Vanguard + 6 Legendary tactics + 2 tactician + 12 stunning item + 5 combat mastery + 1 ship + 7 KTA = 70 (73 for me because I have 3 fighter PLs).

Stun: 73 (76 for me)

The rest of DCs are easy to guess. I think those numbers are pretty respectable and likely to land in most content.

So by going KTA I lose a +7 from strength but gain a +7 from INT so it is a wash while maintaining higher DCs for bard abilities. Obviously adding a litany only helps, as having better tomes (through lasting elixirs and yugo pots in the mix if you want to go even higher).

[BigErkyKid]

Here is what I "discovered" crunching some numbers: it is still best to go STR based (as opposed to CHA) and use STR to damage and then combine it with KTA. It is best for DPS and for DCs. I did make a blunder in my previous post stating KTA uses directly the INT modifier to tactics. That's not true. It uses half the INT modifier so it is effectively like DM but has the advantage that buffs ALL DCs, so it is still better.

For instance, in my case, with a 16/2/2 (bard, fighter, barb) I could reach 65 (27 mod) STR with buffs (tensers, primal scream, excellence, skaldic rage and I don't recall if rage spell stacks but then add two more). This is more than a multi classed bard can achieve in CHA and I "only" used a +5 tome. At the same time, I am counting on an INT of 38 buffed (not crazy high, no consumables used and a lowly +3 tome). CHA is a lowish 42.

This leaves me with the following DCs:

Freeze: 10 base + 8 bard + 16 CHA + 3 Vanguard + 6 Legendary tactics + 2 tactician + 12 stunning item + 5 combat mastery + 1 ship + 7 KTA = 70 (73 for me because I have 3 fighter PLs).

Stun: 73 (76 for me)

The rest of DCs are easy to guess. I think those numbers are pretty respectable and likely to land in most content.

So by going KTA I lose a +7 from strength but gain a +7 from INT so it is a wash while maintaining higher DCs for bard abilities. Obviously adding a litany only helps, as having better tomes (through lasting elixirs and yugo pots in the mix if you want to go even higher).

Just to clarify on the earlier mistake. Ok so divine might gives you your modifier of cha to strength. This means every 2 cha you gain 1 str and every two strength is 1 dc and 1 damage. So you need 4 cha to get 1 dc. With kta you gain half your int modifier to dc and damage meaning you need 4 int per dc and damage. It is equivalent but Kta doesn't lock a class (although uses more ap) and very importantly works with all tactics.

This also makes the build more stat intensive but that was to be expected in a tactics build anyway.

I will also try to point out the modifiers to damage you lose from it going pure war chanter or pure swash. Obviously pure wouldn't work with trip and stunning blow and would lock out shield abilities and knockout.

[Failedlegend]

This is quite similar to one of the bard builds I've been working on except he goes with Bard16/Fighter2/Rogue2 mainly for trap skills but evasion is nice too knockout is tempting but barbarian doesnt really suit the "Mercantile Tactician" theme.