Hirelings are getting worse and worse - Any idea when they will be corrected?

[Augon]

Its amazing what people will do in DDO to avoid playing D&D a game for 4-6 players.

I have no idea what makes you think anyone is trying to avoid playing D&D. How D&D is played has absolutely zero bearing on DDO. While DDO is based on D&D, it is a vastly different game.
That sais, I have Solo played D&D so solo playing DDO isn't all that much of a stretch. I also enjoy running with groups in DDO, it just depends on my RL situation at the time.

You are not supposed to solo Crucible.

Who are you to tell me how I am supposed to play the game? How I play the game is none of your business. If the game allows it, I can do it, unless it is an exploit or a cheat. Soloing Crucible, or any quest, is not an exploit or a cheat.

You are not to expect development use time to make you breeze through that with bots - beyond what is needed to avoid game going broke.

I pointed out bugs - things not working as intended. I am assuming that you did not actually read my whole post, or perhaps, based on your grammar, you are not an English speaker and did not understand my original post.
The devs put hireling in the game for us to use. If they do not work correctly, it is not unreasonable to ask them to correct them. I think they are wanting us to give them feed back on issues like this. And I actually rarely breeze through anything. I do learn quests by soloing them and I often solo quests when RL keeps me from being able to group up. You have no right to tell me I'm playing the game wrong for doing so!

[der_kluge]

We had a hire in Crucible a couple of nights ago, and found the same kind of situation. I had mine camped at "I" and it would just randomly pop to me. I had to get other players to run all over the maze in order to get through it. The hire were useless in this regard.

I ran through Maze of Madness with a hire. And I'm just amazed at how incredibly dumb they are. I've got my hire (the level 13 dwarven bard) and he's literally 2 feet from a lever I want him to pull. So, I move forward, and tell him to pull the lever so I can get through a door, and he decides that he needs to run back and around and down the hallway and god-knows-where, until I call him back in order to plant his butt literally in front of the lever a 2nd, or even 3rd time before he sees it.

[Dendrix]

Just to be sure I understand, there are three bugs:

~ Clicking the hireling "Use" button (the gear) turns off Hold Your Ground.
~ Clicking the Raise button turns off Hold Your Ground, which is probably the same bug as above.
~ Your hireling wouldn't raise you. I thought the hireling needed to cast this on your stone? If your stone was too far away I don't know if that works. I'll check tomorrow.

Sev~

In Maze of Madness, Epic Elite.
I summoned the Onyx Panther Pet.
I put the pet into passive.,
I put the Hold Ground next to a lever I wanted the Pet to pull
I moved to the gate I wanted to pass through
I had the lever selected in the focus orb and pressed the Use button on the Pet's hotbar

What happened was:
1) the pet pulled the lever
2) the hold ground marker vanished
3) the pet ran to me (found a closed gate and eventully temeported to me)

This happened at every lever where I used the pet (3 different levers in the maze).

[Micki]

I simply do not like hirelings. I have no patience at all with them. Any time I do decide to use one, they seem to be good for one purpose only: dying. And if I want someone to die, I may as well bring an alt account.

[Augon]

In Maze of Madness, Epic Elite.
I summoned the Onyx Panther Pet.
I put the pet into passive.,
I put the Hold Ground next to a lever I wanted the Pet to pull
I moved to the gate I wanted to pass through
I had the lever selected in the focus orb and pressed the Use button on the Pet's hotbar

What happened was:
1) the pet pulled the lever
2) the hold ground marker vanished
3) the pet ran to me (found a closed gate and eventully temeported to me)

This happened at every lever where I used the pet (3 different levers in the maze).

Yep, pretty similar to what was happening to me.

[Augon]

I simply do not like hirelings. I have no patience at all with them. Any time I do decide to use one, they seem to be good for one purpose only: dying. And if I want someone to die, I may as well bring an alt account.

I totally understand. They can be frustrating. I try to use them sparingly for the most part but I do use them when I solo quests like the Crucible, that requires another body; and sometimes as a back up rezzer that I leave at the beginning of the quest and pull to rez if necessary. I really don't want them to get so good they can run the quest without a player or even to the point we are completely reliant on them, but obedience would be very nice.

[Coyopa]

We had a hire in Crucible a couple of nights ago, and found the same kind of situation. I had mine camped at "I" and it would just randomly pop to me. I had to get other players to run all over the maze in order to get through it. The hire were useless in this regard.

I ran through Maze of Madness with a hire. And I'm just amazed at how incredibly dumb they are. I've got my hire (the level 13 dwarven bard) and he's literally 2 feet from a lever I want him to pull. So, I move forward, and tell him to pull the lever so I can get through a door, and he decides that he needs to run back and around and down the hallway and god-knows-where, until I call him back in order to plant his butt literally in front of the lever a 2nd, or even 3rd time before he sees it.

What you're describing here is some kind of pathing problem. I've also experienced it, both in the Maze of Madness and elsewhere (including Prison of the Planes). I've even experienced it with rogue hires who are unable to reach the trap control box to disarm it. In this latter case, the most notorious example I can think of is the trap control boxes on the right wall at the end of the right, upstairs hall in Bookbinder Rescue. The rogue can search them both from the other side of the doorway. However, if you tell them to disable either, they'll run around like a headless chicken and end up setting off the traps. You have to stand directly in front of one of the trap boxes, summon the rogue, have them disable, then go to the other one and repeat the process. I've had this happen at a number of trap control boxes in the Maze of Madness, as well. I can't remember if I've seen it with other traps in other quests or not. In Prison of the Planes, I've had hirelings run around trying to use the lever and then fail. It's annoying and I'm not sure how Turbine can fix it because it seems to only happen with particular levers and particular trap boxes, which tells me it's a pathing problem instead of an AI problem.

[Augon]

What you're describing here is some kind of pathing problem. I've also experienced it, both in the Maze of Madness and elsewhere (including Prison of the Planes). I've even experienced it with rogue hires who are unable to reach the trap control box to disarm it. In this latter case, the most notorious example I can think of is the trap control boxes on the right wall at the end of the right, upstairs hall in Bookbinder Rescue. The rogue can search them both from the other side of the doorway. However, if you tell them to disable either, they'll run around like a headless chicken and end up setting off the traps. You have to stand directly in front of one of the trap boxes, summon the rogue, have them disable, then go to the other one and repeat the process. I've had this happen at a number of trap control boxes in the Maze of Madness, as well. I can't remember if I've seen it with other traps in other quests or not. In Prison of the Planes, I've had hirelings run around trying to use the lever and then fail. It's annoying and I'm not sure how Turbine can fix it because it seems to only happen with particular levers and particular trap boxes, which tells me it's a pathing problem instead of an AI problem.

Interesting analysis.

I would be very interested in hearing a Developers comment on this. If this is correct, it will be a pain to fix all locations that gave had the issue.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Very few actual players use [hirelings] or care what's happening with them.

A nice claim. When you make such a claim, please include your sources. Actual statistics showing what percentage of players used a hireling in the past 30 days or something similar will do nicely. And how about a poll showing how players actually feel about what's happening with hirelings? That would back up your statement with some actual facts.

Because I think you're just making it up out of whole cloth because it's a statement which supports your position. And I call BS on that.

[Brac]

A nice claim. When you make such a claim, please include your sources. Actual statistics showing what percentage of players used a hireling in the past 30 days or something similar will do nicely. And how about a poll showing how players actually feel about what's happening with hirelings? That would back up your statement with some actual facts.

Because I think you're just making it up out of whole cloth because it's a statement which supports your position. And I call BS on that.

Empirical evidence.

The same source you have.

[Coyopa]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

Well, I tend to park my healer a small distance from the fight; far enough they have to run a second or so to heal me. I generally rely on my own healing (potions are often the only thing I've got in heroic levels, especially early) and keep the hireling there for emergency big heals and for raising me if I die.

As far as your knowledge of a given topic, I'd personally rather have more communication from you - not less. You don't have to know a given subject well, even when you say things that reveal your lack of knowledge. I know people ridicule you for it, and I'm sorry to see that. Sometimes, when people don't know much about a particular aspect of the game, their questions and perspective can serve to actually get more useful information from the users and/or cause the users to look at the subject from a different perspective themselves. So, I'd rather you post about stuff, even when you don't know about it, because useful things can come out of those discussions.

[Coyopa]

Empirical evidence.

The same source you have.

Let's see your empirical evidence then. Since it's empirical, you shouldn't have any problem with disclosure.

From my observations in the game (so, anecdotal evidence), I would guess the population to be about evenly split on hireling use. I use hirelings quite a bit and there are times when even I don't use them (not including those times where having a hireling would actually be a specific problem, such as trying to solve the floor puzzles in Siegebreaker). There are also times where I've got a plat-purchased hireling and 4 gold seals. It depends on what character I'm playing and what objective I am trying to accomplish. I've been in groups where 3 of 4 people in the group want to call hirelings, and I've been in groups where none of the people want to call a hireling (even when there wasn't a specific healy type in the group and everyone was relying on potions/wands/etc). Now, as I said, that's all anecdotal. So, we'll have to take it with the requisite volume of salt. However, it's still more evidence than you have presented so far. It's also more evidence than you'll be able to present, since the only ones with empirical evidence are the developers.

[Brac]

Let's see your empirical evidence then. Since it's empirical, you shouldn't have any problem with disclosure.

From my observations in the game (so, anecdotal evidence), I would guess the population to be about evenly split on hireling use. I use hirelings quite a bit and there are times when even I don't use them (not including those times where having a hireling would actually be a specific problem, such as trying to solve the floor puzzles in Siegebreaker). There are also times where I've got a plat-purchased hireling and 4 gold seals. It depends on what character I'm playing and what objective I am trying to accomplish. I've been in groups where 3 of 4 people in the group want to call hirelings, and I've been in groups where none of the people want to call a hireling (even when there wasn't a specific healy type in the group and everyone was relying on potions/wands/etc). Now, as I said, that's all anecdotal. So, we'll have to take it with the requisite volume of salt. However, it's still more evidence than you have presented so far. It's also more evidence than you'll be able to present, since the only ones with empirical evidence are the developers.

You are trying to hard to sound smart.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal

Why would the developers be the only ones with empirical evidence? I play the game, therefore I have empirical evidence from my game experience.

[Augon]

Also, this entire hireling thing is a waste of time to fix. Very few actual players use them or care what's happening with them. It just turns out that the few that do use them are VERY vocal on the forums.

Perhaps very few players you play with use them, but I doubt you are getting feedback from the entire player base. Very few players I come in contact with do not use them. And considering every time I go to the hireling vendors there are at least a few others there buying hirelings, I'd say there are a lot of players that use them.

The developers are in a position to know how often they are being used and I would imagine if they were only being used by the people who voice concerns about them here on the forum, they would have pulled them a long time ago.

Please note, I never suggested that everyone used them, not did I suggest everyone should. They are, whether you like it or not, a part of the game and I simply pointed out where a feature that is in the game is not working properly.

[Acoustical]

I had the same problem in The Crucible it is very frustrating. I did have a little more luck using Mikayl the Pious, but only because he has D-Door so I didn't have to re-enter to complete maze. I really hope this gets fixed soon.

I click use on the valve then stand your ground in that order, then the hire stays, kind of annoying but outsmarting a hireling can't be that hard now can it?

[Augon]

You are trying to hard to sound smart.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal

Why would the developers be the only ones with empirical evidence? I play the game, therefore I have empirical evidence from my game experience.

True.
however, your experience and my experience is statistically insignificant for developing a conclusion that "very few players use them." the fact that in my experience, very few players do not use hirelings unless the party is full of players does not mean I can say EVERYONE uses hirelings. I'd say our combined Empirical evidence would suggest that a portion of the player base uses hirelings and a portion of the player base does not.

The facts that we know are:

1. Hirelings are currently part of the game
2. Players use hirelings to assist them in the quest
3. The hirelings are not working as intended - This is the point of this particular thread
4. Some players would prefer to have hirelings not in the game at all - This is the point of a few other threads and a few comments on this thread -but I would guess it is not going to happen (see point number 2)

[Augon]

I click use on the valve then stand your ground in that order, then the hire stays, kind of annoying but outsmarting a hireling can't be that hard now can it?

Yep, that's what I figured out as well. Yes, annoying but it got me through the maze before the casters started going crazy.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Empirical evidence.

The same source you have.

Not the same source, because I'm not making any claims which are really just ass-pulls.

[Brac]

True.
however, your experience and my experience is statistically insignificant for developing a conclusion that "very few players use them." the fact that in my experience, very few players do not use hirelings unless the party is full of players does not mean I can say EVERYONE uses hirelings. I'd say our combined Empirical evidence would suggest that a portion of the player base uses hirelings and a portion of the player base does not.

The facts that we know are:

1. Hirelings are currently part of the game
2. Players use hirelings to assist them in the quest
3. The hirelings are not working as intended - This is the point of this particular thread
4. Some players would prefer to have hirelings not in the game at all - This is the point of a few other threads and a few comments on this thread -but I would guess it is not going to happen (see point number 2)

Hirelings were previously able to pull levers fine. It seems to me that people, not necessarily you, keep complaining because hirelings perform poorly in combat or as healers. They want them to be as good as a live person. As the devs try to improve them, instead they lose their basic functions. I would like them to stop trying to create an unachievable expectation and instead go back to lever pulling, occasional rezzing, and fighting like a monkey is mashing three hot keys. We know hirelings can achieve that so lets just learn to live with it. Assuming they can at least get them back to that state...

[Brac]

Not the same source, because I'm not making any claims which are really just ass-pulls.

But you are, you just think it is more important because it is your ass.