Hirelings are getting worse and worse - Any idea when they will be corrected?

[Propane]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

If you have the chance next week - please look into hireling casters either getting a large bump to Concentration or preferably the quicken feat (~Lv 16 and greater). Spells with any casting time (looking at you Mass Heal) are interrupted 99% of the time. I avoid or turn off Mass Heal - it is almost useless due to it never being completed.

[blerkington]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

Hi,

Of course, there are other options too.

If you thought the issue merited a reply, you could do some research before replying yourself, or you could ask whichever of your colleagues is the expert in this area to reply for you.

This comment of yours sounds a little bit like an ultimatum to me, and it's clearly freaking out some of the more sensitive members of the community.

I don't think you should or the other developers should have to put up with abuse, but when it occurs you have all the tools at your disposal to punish people if they are breaking forum rules.

However, I do think people in your line of work need to be able to distinguish between abuse and bluntly worded criticism of their work. They are not the same thing at all.

So if someone is abusing you, punish them. If you think they are criticising you unfairly, say why or better yet just ignore it. Your method for dealing with this situation should be that of a professional adult, and the withholding route only harms the people who appreciate your input along with those who you believe (perhaps incorrectly) are attacking you personally.

Thanks.

[Nonesuch2008]

Communication is always welcomed & appreciated, Sev. I appreciate the fact that you make yourself a target by the mere act of posting, but in the long run the community is much happier and better off when we do see the involvement and feedback from the Dev team. Some of the public outcry comes with the turf though, and in several cases with hires it is warranted. For those types of communication, as painful as they are, I hope that the meanings behind them are listened to & acted upon. For anything that's out of line, you'll just have to filter it and keep focus on the topic at hand.

That being said, I can only speak for myself on this topic, but I would be happy with the hires if they would just reliably and consistently do what they are told. They don't need to be fancy, overly reactive or rambunctious, and they certainly don't need to take random actions that move them away from levers where I have stationed them or otherwise deviate from what I have instructed them to do. They just need to follow instructions & hold to those instructions until told otherwise. After all, they've had how many years to learn that lava is not their friend & knife traps do more than just make a nifty SHINNNK sound? I accept that I have to think for them, but it's the constant monitoring that detracts from the gaming experience, and one ill-timed teleport can ruin a quest.

The rez question is an easy one to answer, and I'll give you my classic example on where it comes into play. In Litany, I am normally the last one to drop down the shaft and I grab any wayward soul stones along the way. Most times I can navigate the traps, except one memorable run when I zigged when I should have zagged, and a rather unfortunate consequence ensued with me being the dead one high up in the shaft. High enough that my ghost poofed about the time that I made the last opening before the dragon drop, so catching a rez spell at the exact needed moment was very difficult. It took a few tries, but with announcing the start of my drop & timing it to the second, we were able to get a hireling rez spell to hit my ghost for the fleeting moment that it appeared at the bottom of the shaft. If there is a new bug with hirelings not casting a rez when commanded or expected to, please look into it. Thanks

[Silverleafeon]

If you have the chance next week - please look into hireling casters either getting a large bump to Concentration or preferably the quicken feat (~Lv 16 and greater). Spells with any casting time (looking at you Mass Heal) are interrupted 99% of the time. I avoid or turn off Mass Heal - it is almost useless due to it never being completed.

/signed

[Augon]

I've posted multiple times on these forums with suggestions to make Hirelings more useful overall and not with anything OP either!

I even posted a thread about it when I was a member of the Player Council!

Yes, you have posted this numerous times. And as I said in my OP, I don't think most of it is needed. Yeah, some of it may be helpful, but I feel it would take alot of time to code and may be too complicated to not be buggy.

I still feel the number one thing for them to do with Hires is to make them obey, nothing else is all that important

[Augon]

Hilarious that somehow I am a part of the problem here. Broken game mechanics that the "producer" should have addressed over a year ago (yes he was a party to some of those conversations) and today he reveals his general ignorance about the problem through a naive question and somehow I am the problem for pointing it out. It's my fault that people have thin skin and can't accept a different perspective post on an internet forum without being somehow offended by it. Yeah I'm sooo rude; How immature of me to be irritated. /S

I do not see where anyone said you were the problem. Politeness and maturity have nothing to do with the thickness of the skin of the person you are talking to, it is a matter of good upbringing.

Check my past posts and see that I don't "attack... every chance I get". Apology requested.
These hireling issues have persisted for 18 months and nothing has been done about it despite repeated complaints and "intelligent conversations". We'll see how mature and patient you are after nothing is done "about your own personal complaint on hirelings" after you wait that long. You probably will wait that long.

I also did not say you specifically, I said so many people, as in many people attack the devs. I used your quote as an example, but the reference was that I see it often. You misunderstanding what I wrote does not warrant an apology from me. I must say that I didn't expect that comment to hurt your feelings so badly. I guess I didn't realize how thin your skin was.
My patience and maturity are not determined by their response or lack of response to my comments or threads.

YOU posted in "General Disscussion" - if you want control of the conversation and want to limit expression you could have submitted a trouble ticket or a PM. This is not an autocracy and you don't get to define the limits of expression in this forum.
It is only your opinion that my comment carries less significance than anyone else's here.
If I sound crass and exasperated it is because this problem should have been addressed a long time ago with a higher degree of urgency.

Yes I did post in the general forums. But I don't see why that matters as far as expecting people to behave respectfully and maturely. It seems like everyone else is having an easy time doing so. Your comments carry no significance because they do not lead toward any solution to the matter. The Devs have repeated said they need data. several other folks on here have joined me in providing them data. I was happy to see the Producer comment on this thread. But crass comments like yours discourage the open communication that is necessary to see these kinds of things fixed.

Thank you captain obvious, but this particular producer has been involved in these discussions before and has chosen not to take a deeper interest in the problem despite it's significant impact on the game's enjoyment to many players.
There is history to this and just because you (sound like) are unaware of it doesn't reduce it's impact on this discussion.

Please do not resort to name calling. It also does no one any good and makes you look immature. If you scratch the attacking comments made by a very few commenters (and my replies to those comments) , then this has been a useful discussion (of course the true usefulness of it remains to be seen). If the previous discussions you speak of were a series of "comments" like yours, I can understand why he did not take an interest. I am very aware of the history. I have participated and started several thread on hirelings. When I comment, I try to offer new useful information in hopes that it helps them get this fixed.

I don't believe anyone expressed discomfort about any of your comments. However, casting a raise/resurrect spell is a pretty basic feature that almost anyone who has used hirelings for a length of time would be familiar with and by inference one could expect someone that is proposing to help with hireling issues to have a broad understanding of how they work, and should work.
Rather than suggesting less interaction on the forums I would guess most of us would want to hear more often from you and other developers. I mean, seriously, the underlying theme of these complaints in general is the perceived lack of response to the problem. Perhaps you could ask someone who is more familiar with hireling AI to respond to this and other complaints here on the forums?

he did not say he was proposing a solution, he asked for clarity. It was 1:00 am. he was probably at home and just finishing up playing the game himself when he read the forums and responded. I don't think there were any other Devs with him. And I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to go ahead and comment to flag it in the Dev tracker so he wouldn't forget to follow up on it the next day. Of course I'm just guessing based on my own experience in troubleshooting and technology.

Yes, we do want to hear more from the Devs. But attacking them is not the way to encourage that.

[Augon]

Thanks everyone who has joined me in reporting these particular idiosyncrasies of our beloved Hirelings.

Apparently it wasn't a fluke on my part in Crucible. I do see where several folks had the issue in Gianthold but that may be more due to the fact that hirelings are used more in GH than a lot of other chains due to the nature of the mechanics of some of the quests.

I do appreciate Sev entering into the discussion, but I am also VERY interested in the Dev's progress. Did you have time to test the issue today? Were you able to re-create the issue? If not, do you have a time frame for when it might happen. I don't mean to be pushy, but I am curious. I've got 4 more characters that are in range to do heroic GH and 2 almost up to EGH. at least a few of those will probably run Crucible Solo.

Thanks folks

[Gregen]

I'm surprised people are still having problems with hirelings. I've been using hirelings for a long time and they've always worked just fine for me. Except for that one time when they would run across the entire dungeon for no reason, but they're not doing that anymore.

Please don't remove any hirelings as some people have suggested. As much as I like to group, sometimes I need to solo and I'll want to bring a hireling and I use all different classes.

[nat_1]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

Lots of people will rally around the devs and ask that community members remain polite. I will join them as long as the devs themselves don't take an antagonistic stance.

So let's Sheldon Cooper this and ignore the tone completely in the hopes that it's not intended to be antagonistic and is a genuine proposition.

We are happy to entertain this change to forum policy but first we will need the list of the things of which you have 100% knowledge.

If you don't provide the list then I guess you were trying to antagonize the community; in which case, shame on you.

[Flavilandile]

~ Your hireling wouldn't raise you. I thought the hireling needed to cast this on your stone? If your stone was too far away I don't know if that works. I'll check tomorrow.

Just to clear a few things : anybody casting a raise needs to cast it in the actual character... not the stone... yes that includes Drones. ( as well as everybody else )
If your stone is too far away you have a few seconds before leashing back to your stone... during that time a raise can be cast on you... It requires good timing. ( and usually a real human instead of a Drone, as it takes a few tries )

Last : Drones can carry your stone around... I've used it a few time when I'm parking a drone at the entrance of a quest... I die, I call it, I tell it to pick up my stone ( use the stone ), then I run to the nearest shrine. ( the drone will just follow )
This requires some good tweaking of the Drone behavior since they have a tendency to try to aggro anything on sight. But usually setting them to Don't Move, Stay Passive works fine when it comes to carry stones to shrine.
( they get the Don't Move order off when you call them, but since they are on stya passive and they have nobody to protect, they tend to follow orders )
Note : that it doesn't always work, for whatever reasons, some drones find stone carrying beneath their standard.

[bartharok]

Lots of people will rally around the devs and ask that community members remain polite. I will join them as long as the devs themselves don't take an antagonistic stance.

So let's Sheldon Cooper this and ignore the tone completely in the hopes that it's not intended to be antagonistic and is a genuine proposition.

We are happy to entertain this change to forum policy but first we will need the list of the things of which you have 100% knowledge.

If you don't provide the list then I guess you were trying to antagonize the community; in which case, shame on you.

Anybody can behave badly when provoked. But some dont need a reason.

[OldCoaly]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

We know you haven't been playing DDO since launch, or since F2P, and that being a Producer doesn't give you a whole lot of time to play the game and experience the game as a player. If developer communication is limited to areas where they have 100% knowledge, no communication would ever happen. It's no secret that even systems that are completely new and 100% developed by current developers interact with legacy systems in a manner that is not completely understood.


Having said that, raising fallen party members is a pretty common occurrence, and being aware of the steps involved seems like low hanging fruit.


Rather than indirectly resisting players' requests/suggestions that the development team demonstrate familiarity with the product to which they are making changes, please confront the issue directly. Logging into the a live server and comparing your perception of a process to its reality is a more reasonable response to having gaps in your product knowledge pointed out than offering to stop communicating.

Improving your product knowledge so you can better interact with the players about the game we love will lead to much more positive outcomes than throttling communication to only those with 100% subject mastery.


The OP's points are valid and are familiar to anyone who plays the game often. Hirelings have never been great, but they're much worse since the relatively recent fiddling that they've undergone. The state of hirelings isn't a secret to the players and shouldn't be one to you. There has been a lot of feedback on the hireling changes as they've been rolled out.


We love this game and want to see it grow. Please try to find more ways to interact with your community instead of fewer.

[Jetrule]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

Too much solo play Sev. It is a path to learning the game but the quickest way would be running with a regular group that uses voice chat or mumble ect.. Much more fun to be had as well. I suggest joining a guild, playing for a while exclusively on one server in that guild. One that uses chat and parties up. Look for a guild that advertises for mature players. They generally have lots of working people who do not play 30+ hours a week Do so anonymously and the limited time you have in game will be much more productive as a learning experience and as a source of recreation.

[Uska]

I hope they get so buggy they get removed entirely

[JP457]

J
~ Your hireling wouldn't raise you. I thought the hireling needed to cast this on your stone? If your stone was too far away I don't know if that works. I'll check tomorrow.

Sev~

Do you even play the game?

[Qhualor]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

Do you even play the game?

some of us actually want dev communication.

[oldkraft2]

Its amazing what people will do in DDO to avoid playing D&D a game for 4-6 players.
You are not supposed to solo Crucible. You are not to expect development use time to make you breeze through that with bots - beyond what is needed to avoid game going broke.

[Kompera_Oberon]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

Please do not respond to criticism by threatening to "take your ball and go home." That is neither adult nor professional.

It's doubly bad because I know for a fact that you do know how to resurrect a dead character. I recently watched your recording of a Defiler of the Just raid* where you were playing along as a member of the raid, and in that raid you resurrected dead players a few times. So I think it's more likely that you just misspoke.

I will throw in my "also seeing" for point "~ Clicking the hireling "Use" button (the gear) turns off Hold Your Ground." This seemed to be the new MO for hireling operation after U27.1.1 was implemented. I can't speak to the other points.

I didn't have a problem with [hirelings] doing what I wanted before the new stand your ground flag. People complaining about [hireling behavior before then] seemed to not really know how they worked.

If I have understood what moobuy has said, then I agree 100%. Prior to the implementation of stand your ground I saw a lot of forum threads complaining about hireling behavior which really just mystified me.

A hireling is not intended to replace a player. And the commands for making them do what you wanted were working just fine as far as my experience showed. There were some quirks, sure, but they could all be addressed by pushing the right order button.

I suppose the dev team was responding to the "squeaky wheel", but I posted in a few of those threads with my thoughts about how things were not anywhere near as bad as the threads were making them out to be, so there was a dissenting position which could have been weighed against the hyperbolic "hirelings are utterly broken" positions.

These hireling issues have persisted for 18 months and nothing has been done about it despite repeated complaints and "intelligent conversations".

No. Not at all. Hirelings were working fine, for those who managed to operate their command buttons correctly. And then a bunch of complaints prompted change. Change which turns out to have been for the worse. Don't try to claim that there has been 18 months of issues when the problems only started within the past one or two updates.

No, for me at least clicking any button while in Hold you Ground does nothing. You can't click on the button (as in it does not activate), whether it's heal, raise dead or use.

This is not my experience. Like others who have posted in this thread, I have seen the hireling who was set to Stay go back to Follow after it has acted on the Interact With Your Target (gear symbol) command. This is reliable repeatable, not an intermittent error.

Another thing they do now while on Stay which they did not do previously is to take a few steps. This is an intermittent error. This can cause problems when the hireling moves too far from a lever to operate it, or steps off of a pressure plate it is supposed to be standing on. Fortunately when they do this it is always right after the Stay order is given, so you can Call the hireling near the lever or onto the pressure plate again and hope that it does not take that step a second or third time.



* It's a shame you didn't get more than 5-6 people at a time so that you could beat the raid. I was impressed by the character who was confident that he could handle an entire half of the room by himself while the other 4-5 of you managed the other half.

[Gonnakillu]

They've been stupid all through the game, Turbine always say they improve them but they get worst lol.

[Brac]

With my particular play style I just don't run into situations all that often where I raise my characters with a hireling. Generally if I have pulled too much in a quest my hirelings die before my characters, or shortly thereafter.

I also am not personally working on hireling AI at the moment. If players feel uncomfortable with me asking what players are experiencing with a particular feature and limit posting to things where I have 100% knowledge then that's cool; I can make that a requirement of posting on the forums.

Sev~

Yeah, that's probably a good idea. No dev, including you, should reply to a topic unless they fully understand it. Please institute that rule for all staff.

Also, this entire hireling thing is a waste of time to fix. Very few actual players use them or care what's happening with them. It just turns out that the few that do use them are VERY vocal on the forums.