DDOCast 394 - DDO Debates: The Big Important Stuff

[pjstechie]

Lessah guest moderates this installment of DDO Debates that covers the big important things in DDO right now - so big that our panel needed an extra person! Enjoy Samius Gurobo, Axel, Chai & Shamgar as they discuss and debate several topics!

Have thoughts on this show, ideas for round table topics, questions you want to ask us, or topics you’d like to see us debate? Leave us a comment, send us an email (ddocast@gmail.com) or give us a tweet (@ddocast)!

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DDO Debates - 1:22
Do we need a new difficulty? What should the new difficulty be? - 7:04
What is the worst designed raid? - 27:34
What do you want to see for a raid? - 41:41
Are classes balanced with each other and the game? What class is over performing? What class is underperforming? - 52:03
Are monster champions good for the game? Are they working? - 1:03:47
What game system needs to be revisited and/or expanded? - 1:13:56
Did the armor up PRR/MRR changes go to far? Are they too good? - 1:25:44
What should the necessary XP look like to get to level 30? - 1:37:58
What should the new DnD movie be? - 1:44:18
Closing - 1:53:50

[Vargouille]

I've been behind on DDO blogcastsocialspheremediums, but I made a point to make sure I got through this whole show since it was so topical and full of crunchy bits. Finally did, good show as usual, well done all.

Just the table of contents is exciting. If others have thoughts, chime on in. (The first topic may have had plenty said recently... =)

• Do we need a new difficulty? What should the new difficulty be? - 7:04
• What is the worst designed raid? - 27:34
• What do you want to see for a raid? - 41:41
• Are classes balanced with each other and the game? What class is over performing? What class is underperforming? - 52:03
• Are monster champions good for the game? Are they working? - 1:03:47
• What game system needs to be revisited and/or expanded? - 1:13:56
• Did the armor up PRR/MRR changes go to far? Are they too good? - 1:25:44
• What should the necessary XP look like to get to level 30? - 1:37:58
• What should the new DnD movie be? - 1:44:18

This particular 'cast has at least an hour on "DDO systems/areas Vargouille has contributed to and/or will contribute to in the future", so extra thanks for an episode almost custom made for meeeeeeeeee.

/onlyafewweekslatesamemonthcloseenough

[Qhualor]

I don't listen or watch these kinds of things very much, but this one had some good hot topics and really enjoyed listening.

and when/if these changes happen, I now know who to blame

[UurlockYgmeov]

[Hafeal]

Varg -

Thanks for the insight, again, to demonstrate the devs listen to the player base.


Patrick & Co. at DDOCast -

First and foremost, thank you for the show and all you do. I really appreciate and enjoy the podcast - even when I may disagree or wish someone had added another thought that seemed to be missing.

If I have *one* constructive criticism - of this podcast particularly, I perceive a lack of insight for the truly casual player and little more than lip service for new players. The guests - while entertaining and very insightful, are often talking on points that casual players may be a long way from enjoying. I think a casual perspective would be helpful to round out the conversations.

[Gratch]

Heh... I like that during the "Worst Designed Raid Ever" there wasn't a single mention of Caught in the Web.

Despite the ~40 pages of Lama threads calling it the "Worst DESIGNED Raid Ever" during its debug as well as outright attacks on the developers. How dare you design a raid that makes us walk some girl all over a map!!!! HOW DARE YOU!
Or the 20 pages on the live forum with the same discussion.
Take that forumers who think they know which raid will be the best designed and which the worst (in current hindsight mode).

It may only be middle of the road raid now, but not one mention of being the worst designed from the panel.

Edit: Updated and expanded with greater use of "Designed"

[pjstechie]

If I have *one* constructive criticism - of this podcast particularly, I perceive a lack of insight for the truly casual player and little more than lip service for new players. The guests - while entertaining and very insightful, are often talking on points that casual players may be a long way from enjoying. I think a casual perspective would be helpful to round out the conversations.

thanks for the critique, it's something I'm aware of but is challenging for me specifically. I have a long playing experience so it is sometimes difficult to wrap my head around that perspective. There are a couple guests that are more new player friendly minded than I - and I confess I have voiced my own approach, gotten feedback, and changed my approach.

what would be greatly beneficial to me as I prepare for the cast are specific topics you think we should cover. I have a list, but it is dwindling and it is in large part a list that I created. It's not easy coming up with a topic every week and finding a set of guests that are really in their forte to talk about it. (Sometimes I've had guests that were "off topic" where their knowledge is concerned and its showed in the end result and feedback). This is something I ask for every week because I want to be covering topics the listeners want to hear, but I rarely if ever get feedback on this.

I also think you will find this week's episode to your liking

[pjstechie]

Heh... I like that during the "Worst Raid Ever" there wasn't a single mention of Caught in the Web.

Despite the ~40 pages of Lama threads calling it the "Worst Raid Ever" during its debug as well as outright attacks on the developers.
Or the 20 pages on the live forum with the same title.
Take that forumers who think they know which raid will be the best and which the worst (in current hindsight mode).

It may only be middle of the road raid now, but not one mention of being the worst from the panel.

I would point out that the question was about design, not how well it was released, how buggy it was, or how much we or players liked it

[pjstechie]

This particular 'cast has at least an hour on "DDO systems/areas Vargouille has contributed to and/or will contribute to in the future", so extra thanks for an episode almost custom made for meeeeeeeeee.

glad you enjoyed it!

now about that Tarrasque....

[Gratch]

I would point out that the question was about design, not how well it was released, how buggy it was, or how much we or players liked it

Eh... semantics. How well it's designed does lead to how well players enjoy it and the overwhelming complaint at the time was regarding the Design of the Raid being a protect raid (as well as complaining about pathing bugs, Anna disappearing bugs, etc). In truth as a raid it has multiple stages, a number of boss types, involves most everyone in the raid and still has relevant loot until you hit Thunderholme weapons.

Mostly just saying as someone who enjoyed it as something fun even when it had bugs at the start (as compared to a Titan, VoD single room final raid).

[FranOhmsford]

thanks for the critique, it's something I'm aware of but is challenging for me specifically. I have a long playing experience so it is sometimes difficult to wrap my head around that perspective. There are a couple guests that are more new player friendly minded than I - and I confess I have voiced my own approach, gotten feedback, and changed my approach.

The problem I see though is that you filled the panel with players known as the best of the best - Powergamers all!

Players who have no idea of just how many people have problems even in Heroic Elites {Never mind Epics}.
Players who can solo EEs in a 6 man group - Of course they don't have party wipes!
Players who don't understand that it's a bad idea to segregate players {DDO simply doesn't have a large enough population to do so!} and Elite is the Default BECAUSE you HAVE to be able to play Elite just to get a group!


The benefit of "Reaper" will be that it gives Elite players an option to run a higher difficulty when they want a Challenge!
Adding a load of Rewards to it that make it easier WILL make it the Default just like Elite is now AND WILL leave those same players complaining yet again that it's too easy!



And before you dismiss my points because you think I'm a gimp who doesn't know how to play the game - Just yesterday I got told BY A LEGEND that I had a really powerful Bard {In Heroic Tide Turns on E-BB!} while I knew that I was taking 2-3 minutes longer per quest on that character than on other characters!
There are plenty of players in DDO who people on these forums completely dismiss as not existing!

[FranOhmsford]

Clerics are massively underperforming compared to the game!
Their reason for being has been downgraded so significantly it's impossible to over-rate how much!
Their Melee DPS, Turns and Caster DPS/CC is massively weaker than other toons. And EE is completely out of reach for the majority of Pure {or close to Pure} Clerics!

DC Casting IS Dead so Wizards are hurting bad.

FvSs and Druids {Non Multiclassed Woof Builds} are also significantly underperforming compared to the game!

Monks {Pure} and Artis are seriously weak these days!

Sorcs, Fighters and Rangers are actually OK and would be the last on my list for a boost {which they WILL need once all other classes have got theirs!} - The boosts to them won't need to be much though.



As for over-performing - NOT Paladins! {Paladins are just right!}. - Holy Sword has been nerfed TWICE already {the second of which simply was not needed!}.
The actual classes that ARE over-performing are Warlocks and Barbarians!

[FranOhmsford]

They DIDN'T nerf Champions!

They FIXED them!

They were BROKEN!

They were appearing far more often than the Devs INTENDED and STATED that they should!

I even stated at the time and have continued to state that Champions weren't a bad idea it was simply a problem of implementation!

I do feel that there should be a small chance of Champions on Normal so that:
1) The gap between Normal and Hard isn't so wide!
and
2) Newbies get a chance to see what they're going to be up against in hard/elite BEFORE entering those difficulties! {You can't learn how to deal with something in a lesser difficulty if it doesn't appear in said lesser difficulty! - This is what makes Elite Small Problem such an extreme challenge!}.

[IronClan]

I too had a problem with the worst designed raid segment... touted as "worst ever" is one of the most intricately and interestingly designed raids Titan... Reasons cited were few and superficial.

The main reason cited has a trivial work around that second nature anyone who starts a Titan: It's hard to get to if you don't have someone greater teleport from the sub-t which is such a trivial work around that no one ever did a titan without doing that... Sure this is a bad design point... it's countered by using 1 spell. Wow... So if the players worked around it from day one how big should this really weight as a factor?

And because the end fight is a 3 to 5 person affair; because that's how we the players meta gamed it down NOT because it's designed that way, but because the players always find the path of least resistance and not fighting WF in the shard room is how the players decided to deal with it.

So two detractors in what is otherwise a brilliantly involving pre-raid VON5 like in having people participate (In my mind totally making up for the meta gamed deficiencies of the shorter end fight) and a very unique and different end fight that with one or two minor changes could have involved the whole raid group: make drones flood into doorways at the top and have the rest of the party fight them back. And/or Make the pillars regenerate so that DPS in needed on them at all times to keep them prepped.

On the other hand we have CITW perhaps forgotten because you're actually more liable to see a Titan on the LFM than a CITW?

Lets look at it's poor design points, NONE of which have easy peasy work around, or are just the result of how the player base meta gamed it:

CITW Requires getting to evening star then doing TEN FLAGGING QUESTS (I consider it 14 flagging quests to be honest but I don't feel like arguing the technicality that you could conceivably flag without doing LOD through Rift)... You know what no.... it requires 14 flagging quests lets call a spade a spade...

These quests require navigating the uber confusing/convoluted to travel underdark to tag portals when you don't know the way

They require navigating the uber confusing/convoluted Schyldrillalalaldeedahh a name only slightly less convoluted than the city layout, again until you've blundered about in their with red alert a few dozen times and even then you're liable to get dead ended a time or three even when you do know where everything is.

They require navigating the Demonweb pseudo randomized and yes also confusing and hard to navigate when you don't know the way or the "fall off a few times to get near the quest entrance" trick.

The raid is twice as long as it should be, it is pretty universally considered an overly long raid and padded with too many unneeded fights.

The SP drain mechanic is pretty much universally hated.

Escorting anna while thankfully not usually a challenge is none the less escorting a brain dead NPC something most players hate.

The loot is only weapons and a very limited selection of weapons this is bad design because a very good percentage of the player base simply didn't need those weapons! Out of probably 12 alts at the time I had TWO CHARACTERS that ever bothered to run the raid more than once. Unlike wearable items which can have much broader appeal, a raid with only weapons was bound to die pretty quickly. And then they dropped a Coup De Grace on it with the raiders reward boxes. I am half convinced that the reception of this raid was SO BAD that they actually intended to kill it with the reward boxes.

The drop rates were terrible among the worst ever in the game (right up there with Titan, if you want to put another X in titans Con's column go ahead), with 5 or 6 times more chests to pull from than most raids no less, it was just 5 or 6 times more disappointment and lack of things to roll on.

Comms dropped in FoT much more often meaning no need to run CITW for Comms.

Boss is unkillable demi-godess that might as well pop open the DDO store and bookmark the SP pot page for you. And get this: you beat on her belly button. because you know she couldn't back up three feet or simply snuff everyone out of existence on a whim.

Long and unskipable NPC dialog at the end with cringe worthy "Day-looooge"...

Honestly the points brought up re titan were very minor nit picks and i was floored to hear two people call it the worst designed raid. I can only guess that time and the almost complete absence of CITW LFM's has put a soft filter on this dog.

[FranOhmsford]

I agree with Patrick about Epic XP.

Current amounts required are:

21 - 300k
22 - 450k
23 - 600k
24 - 750k
25 - 900k
26 - 1,050,000
27 - 1,200,000
28 - 1,350,000
Total - 6,600,000

Change that to:

21 - 500k
22 - 500k
23 - 750k
24 - 750k
25 - 750k
26 - 750k
27 - 1,000,000
28 - 1,000,000
29 - 1,000,000
30 - 1,000,000
Total - 8,000,000

And allow Epic/Iconic TRs at Lvl 28. {6,000,000 XP}

End-Game Content should NOT be enterable by anyone under Lvl 28!

[FranOhmsford]

As for a D&D Movie - Adapt Threnal!


Sean Pertwee beats Sean Bean for dying in Movies!

And actually - If they get Sean Pertwee or even Sean Bean the character should absolutely NOT die! Twist!



Casting:

Rogue - Sean Pertwee
Cleric - Felicia Day
Wizard - Matt Smith
Ranger - Gerard Butler
Barbarian - Vin Diesel
Bard - Ice Cube
Warlock - Will Wheaton {Must Die!}

[Chai]

The problem I see though is that you filled the panel with players known as the best of the best - Powergamers all!

Players who have no idea of just how many people have problems even in Heroic Elites {Never mind Epics}.
Players who can solo EEs in a 6 man group - Of course they don't have party wipes!
Players who don't understand that it's a bad idea to segregate players {DDO simply doesn't have a large enough population to do so!} and Elite is the Default BECAUSE you HAVE to be able to play Elite just to get a group!

Not really - some of us have been involved and active in teaching channels. If you are in either of the two teaching channels on sarlona over the years its possible we helped you learn what you know of the game.

[Hafeal]

thanks for the critique, it's something I'm aware of but is challenging for me specifically. I have a long playing experience so it is sometimes difficult to wrap my head around that perspective. There are a couple guests that are more new player friendly minded than I - and I confess I have voiced my own approach, gotten feedback, and changed my approach.

what would be greatly beneficial to me as I prepare for the cast are specific topics you think we should cover. I have a list, but it is dwindling and it is in large part a list that I created. It's not easy coming up with a topic every week and finding a set of guests that are really in their forte to talk about it. (Sometimes I've had guests that were "off topic" where their knowledge is concerned and its showed in the end result and feedback). This is something I ask for every week because I want to be covering topics the listeners want to hear, but I rarely if ever get feedback on this.

I also think you will find this week's episode to your liking

I am looking forward to the episode. I appreciate that topics are tough; you have been doing such a good job, I have not thought you needed much help but I will see what I can come up with on a quick basis here:

1) A "Back to Basics" series (perhaps 1 a month) on topics like this for example:

a) 1 episode for Feats and guidelines for taking at which levels;
b) 1 episode for Enhancements, perhaps with a short history of their evolution;
c) 1 episode for spells and spells only - spell schools, descriptions, effectiveness, meta magics, good spells, bad spells, why;
d) 1 episode dedicated to Races and Classes.

While *I know* much of this can be found on the Wiki, an episode is nice for a a compilation and for listening rather than active searching. In addition, you can then get the opinions of some great vet players who can add in "what works and what doesn't" sort of viewpoints.

2) An episode dedicated to the lore of Eberron and FR; a recapping of the story lines and how they string all of DDO together;

3) A debate over the the best explorer areas and how they can be made even better;

4) An interview series with some of the forum personalities who have not regularly appeared on the show - anything from a guest appearance co-host to a Budweiser hot seat style 3 question set;

5) Ditto 4 for more devs;

6) A recap of the 2014 DDO PC and see what their thoughts are in reflection;

7) A current round table of the 2015 PC for a peek as to the year and its progress.


Anyway, I'll see if I can think of some more.

[fangblackhawk]

They DIDN'T nerf Champions!

They FIXED them!

They were BROKEN!

They were appearing far more often than the Devs INTENDED and STATED that they should!

I even stated at the time and have continued to state that Champions weren't a bad idea it was simply a problem of implementation!

I do feel that there should be a small chance of Champions on Normal so that:
1) The gap between Normal and Hard isn't so wide!
and
2) Newbies get a chance to see what they're going to be up against in hard/elite BEFORE entering those difficulties! {You can't learn how to deal with something in a lesser difficulty if it doesn't appear in said lesser difficulty! - This is what makes Elite Small Problem such an extreme challenge!}.

i totaly agree with this

would just add i still think there should be something more to identify ther is a champ coming at you..... like "Mortal Kombat" " popping up on the screen when they activate in dm text and they should just simply glow not have floaty crowns that are easaly missed in mass mobbs.....

[Hafeal]

*snip*

I won't argue your points on how bad CiTiW is, but it is not the worst.


The worst raid was never even mentioned - Heroic Abbott.

A raid, that for almost 3 years after its debut, could not even be run. And when it could be run, had one major problem after another. For the "challenge" crowd, I believe it holds the raid record for a run not being successfully completed for almost, if not, a year or more.

A raid that, by far, had the most idiotic and mind-numbing flagging sequence such that 90%+ of the player base did not run it. Random sigil pieces? Seriously!?! For 4 quests, that at their debut and long after were not soloable for 99% of the player base; oh, and those quests?

- Ghosts of Perdition had the timing of killing 2 brothers (very difficult for many for a long time) and probably the hardest optional in the game (killing all mobs at each beholder level), and, oh, a nasty named Boss beholder - at a time when beholders were feared;

- A quest full of golems when "smiters" were prized sought after weapons; and an optional that is probably second to Ghosts at level;

- Inferno, which a good chunk of the payer hates due to the 'flipping' sides mechanic

- [edit] I'll throw in Vol - the quells, when the quest was new, could be devastating on Elite. However, the quest was the easiest of the 4, especially on Normal, so it gets a "pass".

Oh, and hey, let's run the same pre-raid quest (Litany) 4 different ways as well. Awesome. I like black dragons and all - but next time - give me a chance to beat his a**. Add in the auto fail if you answer the questions wrong, lol.

In the end, the raid itself became the representative of content run by elite for elites only - and even they complained about it, constantly. God, the forum ranting still reverberates in my head. From drop rates to quest mechanics that *never* worked right - remember that disjunction problem killing people's gear? Oooh, that was great. Until Monty Haul allowed the players to beat the raid more often than not through shear power, the raid was THE toughest raid in the game. And oh, no one ran it - for all those on the game needs more "challenge" bandwagon. Remember the raid completion event across servers? What 1 raid had to have completions cut? Yeah, you guessed it - Heroic Abbott. Because it sucks. It still does too, even though it is easier to flag now.

A complete and utter waste.

Whew. That felt good.