Some New Thrower Builds

[jakeelala]

Was actually thinking 12 wizard for self-casting Tenser's, the rest was gravy

This is why I made Tinkerhell (12 Artificer/5Rogue/3Monk). 12 Arty gives you more than 12 Wizard as far as I am concerned. For instance, Artificer bonus feats are more useful for Throwers than Wizard bonus feats.

12 Arty can self cast Tensers, but more importantly can scroll Tensers for something like 2 minutes. They also get haste, and elemental weapons. You can skip Tensers and mem something else like Aligned weapons too

If you Greensteel or Scroll Displace as 12 Arty, the duration are really good.

[ValariusK]

I've been wondering what might be doable with the Warlock ES Tier 4 spiritual retribution with a thrower build. Adds 3d6 (10.5) and modified by spell power to every hit. This could be a pretty substantial damage add. Maybe 13 rogue/4 warlock/3 monk?

[jakeelala]

I've been wondering what might be doable with the Warlock ES Tier 4 spiritual retribution with a thrower build. Adds 3d6 (10.5) and modified by spell power to every hit. This could be a pretty substantial damage add. Maybe 13 rogue/4 warlock/3 monk?

I wasn't aware it wass modified by Spellpower. Can it crit? Its quite expensive in AP, and 10.5x5 (assuming maximum 550 Spell Power) is 55 which is good, but not really as good as the feats + 3 SA dice and Sniper Shot. In fact, the 3 SA Dice from Sniper are almost as good, and Sniper Shot is incredible.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Good thread; interesting and very useful for the community.

Thanks.

[ValariusK]

I wasn't aware it wass modified by Spellpower. Can it crit? Its quite expensive in AP, and 10.5x5 (assuming maximum 550 Spell Power) is 55 which is good, but not really as good as the feats + 3 SA dice and Sniper Shot. In fact, the 3 SA Dice from Sniper are almost as good, and Sniper Shot is incredible.

Dunno if it can crit, probably can, but you can get a lot of other goodies also out of 4 warlock pretty low. 9 or 10 points of souleater, for instance, is pretty nice, and sniper shot requires 6 ranger levels whereas you only need 4 for what I'm talking in warlock.

[Saekee]

This is why I made Tinkerhell (12 Artificer/5Rogue/3Monk). 12 Arty gives you more than 12 Wizard as far as I am concerned. For instance, Artificer bonus feats are more useful for Throwers than Wizard bonus feats.

12 Arty can self cast Tensers, but more importantly can scroll Tensers for something like 2 minutes. They also get haste, and elemental weapons. You can skip Tensers and mem something else like Aligned weapons too

If you Greensteel or Scroll Displace as 12 Arty, the duration are really good.

I have been thinking about your builds here. Would an update to Tinkerhell work in which you do 13 rogue/4 arti/3 monk, take tier 5 Mechanic and endless fusilade. You can swap in a great xbow for fusilade (it uncenters you, but it is 6 seconds and then swap back to stars and being centered) and otherwise always use shurikens.
Arti also gives elemental weapons casting, some minor bonuses to weapon enchantment and damage boost, +2 levels when using tenser scrolls. It is costly to lose Deepwood for fusilade, but with all the bonuses in the mech tree and the tier 5 boosts to Gxbows, it might be really nice burst damage. You would need to have a high INT to make it worthwhile to compensate for the damage loss from not using Dex.

[LordTigerDawn]

I've been wondering what might be doable with the Warlock ES Tier 4 spiritual retribution with a thrower build. Adds 3d6 (10.5) and modified by spell power to every hit. This could be a pretty substantial damage add. Maybe 13 rogue/4 warlock/3 monk?

I admit I keep thinking of warlock 4 in there as well. I always end up coming to the place, if bard crit mult worked in swash, a 4 warlock splash would be doable for shuriken. The removal of ranger really hits the feat total hard, you would loose gm air stance for the feats when switching to wrlk.

Warlock does give some nice defense too... I just wish it worked better.

How much dmg would be added if you just used a rune arm from arti 2? Warlock is expensive in that comparison

[jakeelala]

I admit I keep thinking of warlock 4 in there as well. I always end up coming to the place, if bard crit mult worked in swash, a 4 warlock splash would be doable for shuriken. The removal of ranger really hits the feat total hard, you would loose gm air stance for the feats when switching to wrlk.

Warlock does give some nice defense too... I just wish it worked better.

How much dmg would be added if you just used a rune arm from arti 2? Warlock is expensive in that comparison

Yeah. I am wondering if I can make a Bard using Throwing Axes work that uses Warlock. Maybe a 10 Bard/6 Ranger/4 Warlock. Using Sniper Shot, Int to damage, Swash, and big Spell power. It would play more like a Monkcher than a thrower, and you could try using Slayer Arrows with the Throwing Axes. You can get close to 60 Doubleshot, with Slayer and Sniper you'd be hitting really hard, especially in FoTW. I would advise a Min 2 Throwing Axe in order to cheese the Keen stacking for a crit threat of 5-20x3. Could be interesting. Boss DPS would be pretty nice. And you could burst with Manyshot from 6 Ranger

[WldNCrispy]

Greetings

The Meteor Shower 2 (Dark Stars) is actually still a pretty nice build. All you have to do is swap enhancements around for Tier 5 Mechanic instead of Tensers, and you're pretty much good to go. The 150% scaling of Sneak Attack damage with Ranged Power makes this build still able to hold it's own quite well.

Have you ever considered a variant on your Meteor Shower 2 build where you go T5 Harper instead of T5 Mechanic?

If you solo a lot or often draw agro, my thought is you may wind up proc'ing much more sneak attack damage in the long run by going Harper.
Here are some thoughts on Mechanic vs. Harper on some key attributes...

• The difference between Mechanic-Harper in ranged power is slight (20 RP in Mech vs. 15 RP in Harper)
• You lose 10% standing Doubleshot by going Harper, but if you are running 10k stars w/38-low 40s WIS, on average the DS still comes out ahead
• DEX is two higher with Harper
• You lose 10m SA and point blank shot range going to Harpers (I've not found this to be that big of a deal – I find it easy to stay a bit closer)
• You lose some base damage enhancement per hit moving from Mechanic (7 pts) to Harper (2 pts or 4pts vs. evil)
• You lose Know the Angles if you go Mechanic unless you drop something else (e.g. venomed blades, sting of ninja - both of which I can take when i go T5 harper).

Based on the comparison above and other goodies (e.g., Wrack Construct), I might give the T5 Mechanic investment the nod, however, rogue-based thrower builds seem to largely be spec'd around SA damage. Thus, actually being able to proc the SA damage as often as possible becomes important. Within Harper there is T5 option to add Improved Deception to your equipped weapon.

Under the assumption that the Improved Deception on your weapon stacks with any Improved Deception item you might have equipped (e.g., Backstabber's Gloves), that would be 20% Improved Deception with T5 Harpers. You'd effectively lose half of this by going T5 Mechanic instead of T5 Harper (no TF shuri have Improved Deception that I know of, so I think Harper is the only way to get standing 20% ID on a shuri build). If you solo a lot, or draw a lot of aggro, this seems like a massive loss to SA damage over time as it would proc half as often running in Mechanic compared to Harper.

I've been playing your Meteor Shower 2 build for about a year - it has been great fun (so thanks!). I made the switch from T5 EK to T5 Harpers a while ago (now scrolling Tensor's), and also experimented with going T5 Mechanic vs. T5 Harper. The base damage and SA numbers I was seeing when I went T5 Mechanic were a bit higher then when I run T5 Harper (e.g., 5-10% higher), but the extent to which SA damage actually popped up seemed noticeably less in Mechanic compared to when I was running Harper with Improved Deception taken at T5. Thus, in the long run, I seemed to be getting much more SA damage from Harper when you factor in the increase in # of times it is proc'ing over a fixed period of time. In addition to providing that benefit, deception effects also cause mobs to temporarily stop and turnaround - quite useful for slowing mobs down when you are backpedaling and chucking. Thus, the more frequently deception procs, the more time you have to cut mobs down before they reach you.

As an aside, I've only got one Epic PL Doubleshot. In terms of my AP distribution, I've got 35 in Harper, 17 in Halfling, 8 in Assassin (1SA + Venomed Blades), 16 Ninja Spy (3x SA + Sting of the Ninja), 3 in Mechanic (one core for increased SA and PB range, 1 T1 for damage enhancement), and 1 in Shintao (positive healing amp).

In my build above, twist in Cocoon for healing, Enlightenment to help support 10K stars, my last twist is Whirling Wrists (if in LD or SD) or Grim Precision (if in Shiradi).

In light of your post, I am toying with the idea of switching out the 5Wiz for 1 level of Rogue (imp evasion or opp) + 4 levels of ranger, thus giving me a 10Rog/6Mnk/4Rgr split. I'd keep my enhancements largely the same as above but likely swap the 8 AP in Assassin for 6 AP in DWS (3SA + increased range for SA/PB). From there, I'd possibly drop the 3 AP in mechanic and 1 AP in shinao, and using the 2 AP I gain from dropping Assassin, put 6 in Arcane Archer to pick up some spell points for cocoon and a basic elemental imbue.

Thanks for all of your work on the thrower threads - I've found it very helpful.

[LordTigerDawn]

Yeah. I am wondering if I can make a Bard using Throwing Axes work that uses Warlock. Maybe a 10 Bard/6 Ranger/4 Warlock. Using Sniper Shot, Int to damage, Swash, and big Spell power. It would play more like a Monkcher than a thrower, and you could try using Slayer Arrows with the Throwing Axes. You can get close to 60 Doubleshot, with Slayer and Sniper you'd be hitting really hard, especially in FoTW. I would advise a Min 2 Throwing Axe in order to cheese the Keen stacking for a crit threat of 5-20x3. Could be interesting. Boss DPS would be pretty nice. And you could burst with Manyshot from 6 Ranger

I made a dwarf ax thrower, con to dmg and it is at cap right now. There are two major things from preventing ax from being good.

First, throwing axes have pathing problems. You do loose about half your throws into the vapour. No hit, just lost.

Second, you cannot throw axes enough to keep LD going, probably because of the first problem. LD seems to be the natural fit for ax throwing due to the ranged power, and improved crit profiles. My build uses stalwart defense so I could not use fury very well.

Nice thing is, it is not a squishy build.

Should tr it, to try it with warlock; it is about six months old now.

[Saekee]

Have you ever considered a variant on your Meteor Shower 2 build where you go T5 Harper instead of T5 Mechanic?

If you solo a lot or often draw agro, my thought is you may wind up proc'ing much more sneak attack damage in the long run by going Harper.
Here are some thoughts on Mechanic vs. Harper on some key attributes...

• The difference between Mechanic-Harper in ranged power is slight (20 RP in Mech vs. 18 RP in Harper)
• You lose 10% standing Doubleshot by going Harper, but if you are running 10k stars w/38-low 40s WIS, on average the DS still comes out ahead
• DEX is two higher with Harper
• You lose 10m SA and point blank shot range going to Harpers (I've not found this to be that big of a deal – I find it easy to stay a bit closer)
• You lose some base damage enhancement per hit moving from Mechanic (7 pts) to Harper (2 pts or 4pts vs. evil)
• You lose Know the Angles if you go Mechanic unless you drop something else (e.g. venomed blades, sting of ninja - both of which I can take when i go T5 harper).

Based on the comparison above and other goodies (e.g., Wrack Construct), I might give the T5 Mechanic investment the nod, however, rogue-based thrower builds seem to largely be spec'd around SA damage. Thus, actually being able to proc the SA damage as often as possible becomes important. Within Harper there is T5 option to add Improved Deception to your equipped weapon.

Under the assumption that the Improved Deception on your weapon stacks with any Improved Deception item you might have equipped (e.g., Backstabber's Gloves), that would be 20% Improved Deception with T5 Harpers. You'd effectively lose half of this by going T5 Mechanic instead of T5 Harper (no TF shuri have Improved Deception that I know of, so I think Harper is the only way to get standing 20% ID on a shuri build). If you solo a lot, or draw a lot of aggro, this seems like a massive loss to SA damage over time as it would proc half as often running in Mechanic compared to Harper.

I've been playing your Meteor Shower 2 build for about a year - it has been great fun (so thanks!). I made the switch from T5 EK to T5 Harpers a while ago (now scrolling Tensor's), and also experimented with going T5 Mechanic vs. T5 Harper. The base damage and SA numbers I was seeing when I went T5 Mechanic were a bit higher then when I run T5 Harper (e.g., 5-10% higher), but the extent to which SA damage actually popped up seemed noticeably less in Mechanic compared to when I was running Harper with Improved Deception taken at T5. Thus, in the long run, I seemed to be getting much more SA damage from Harper when you factor in the increase in # of times it is proc'ing over a fixed period of time. In addition to providing that benefit, deception effects also cause mobs to temporarily stop and turnaround - quite useful for slowing mobs down when you are backpedaling and chucking. Thus, the more frequently deception procs, the more time you have to cut mobs down before they reach you.

As an aside, I've only got one Epic PL Doubleshot. In terms of my AP distribution, I've got 35 in Harper, 17 in Halfling, 8 in Assassin (1SA + Venomed Blades), 16 Ninja Spy (3x SA + Sting of the Ninja), 3 in Mechanic (one core for increased SA and PB range, 1 T1 for damage enhancement), and 1 in Shintao (positive healing amp).

In my build above, twist in Cocoon for healing, Enlightenment to help support 10K stars, my last twist is Whirling Wrists (if in LD or SD) or Grim Precision (if in Shiradi).

In light of your post, I am toying with the idea of switching out the 5Wiz for 1 level of Rogue (imp evasion or opp) + 4 levels of ranger, thus giving me a 10Rog/6Mnk/4Rgr split. I'd keep my enhancements largely the same as above but likely swap the 8 AP in Assassin for 6 AP in DWS (3SA + increased range for SA/PB). From there, I'd possibly drop the 3 AP in mechanic and 1 AP in shinao, and using the 2 AP I gain from dropping Assassin, put 6 in Arcane Archer to pick up some spell points for cocoon and a basic elemental imbue.

Thanks for all of your work on the thrower threads - I've found it very helpful.

Improved deception on weapons stacks with improved deception on gear (Nokowi posted a vid called 'deception and rogues' full of testing of this stuff--I do not have the link).
The big bonus of sneak attack damage is its 150% scaling with ranged/melee power. I think it is there where the gap widens--slightly less RP, less sneak dice then add up to much less DPS.

10K does put doublestrike on timer but you can get 1-2stars extra with the wisdom score you mention.

If you solo alot though and are not getting sneak damage in anyway you might be better off with Harper--great points you make. The meteor shower also had wiz levels so you can use the free extend enhancentment from tier 5 harper to save sp for extending buffs. Also note that harper gives melee power too making it effective for ranged/melee hybrids.

(I played to cap a monk/rogue hybrid that used longswords and tier 5 harper for improved deception and to extend elven dragonmarks without arcane levels, so it can be very effective, although my build suffered from the general poverty of longswords.)

[jakeelala]

Have you ever considered a variant on your Meteor Shower 2 build where you go T5 Harper instead of T5 Mechanic?

Snip

Thanks for all of your work on the thrower threads - I've found it very helpful.

Thank you very much for your kind words. I am glad you have enjoyed the builds.

I haven't run the build you're asking about in some time, since I posted it. All of your suggestions are are valid, and would work pretty well. Additionally, you can still take up to T4 in Mechanic for 10 of the Ranged Power. In any case, for a 10K build I think it's pretty compelling since the Doubleshot is so much less of a concern. On a 10Rogue/6Monk/4Ranger this might work well too. You do lose a chunk of damage from having less SA dice and not having Sniper Shot however.

[Saekee]

Coming Soon: 11Rog/6Rgr/3Monk

Here's a SS from tonight running Devils Details on EE. This was with friends, not PUGs. Good players, and the great x-bow Rogue is end game geared and Past Lives and all of that.

I say in threads that Xbow rogue and pallies are best ranged DPS, but I actually still believe this build is the best overall and all around ranged DPS.

Coming Soon: 8Rog/6Rgr/6Mnk

Coming Soon: Bard Thrower

hi jakeelela, I have been thinking a lot about your splits and have a couple of points to ask.

I was thinking that it would be very useful to have good run speed, either for kiting or Quality of Life. Have you considered a 9 monk/6 ranger/5 rogue split? 9 monk also gets improved evasion and a free +15% movement speed boost. 5 rogue for Tier 5, 6 ranger for sniper shot etc. You would not get opportunist from 13 rogue.

It also seems that the DPS cores of mechanic really begin at level 12 but there is the improved point blank shot range for each one (6 deepwood also improves it 15 meters). I am wondering if it is not worth it to get the bonus movement boost, saves, 10K (if one lacks lots of doubleshot) and shadow veil from 9 monk?

point blank shot range bonus:

• 13 rogue/4 ranger/3 monk: 30 meters
• 11 rogue/6 ranger/3 monk: 30 meters
• 8 rogue/6 ranger/6 monk: 30 meters
• 9 monk/6 ranger/5 rogue: 25 meters

maxed movement speeds, assuming monk is centered and spending 3 AP in acrobat:

• 13 rogue/4 ranger/3 monk: 18
• 11 rogue/6 ranger/3 monk: 16
• 8 rogue/6 ranger/6 monk: 18
• 9 monk/6 ranger/5 rogue: 20

We can add that one can skimp on the 3 AP from acrobat in the case of 9 monk and still have 15% movement speed boost.

The bardic thrower not yet posted would also get a movement speed boost for a couple of AP of 1%/level, plus 1%/level rogue, and, if for any reason you splash barb, +10%.

More rogue levels mean more sneak attack die, with level 12 the cutoff for the epic feat Improved Sneak attack


Thanks in advance.

[LordTigerDawn]

What Bard Thrower build are you looking at trying?

[Holyavatar]

i would like to player a thrower build for a long time..but without TF T3 all shurikens builds are not great anymoar..Farming TODW 30 more times again is meh

[Lumpsack]

Hi,

Please accept my ignorance, but I started following the build as a first time thrower and foolishly without reading I took Weapon Focus Ranged, only after buying did I realise that it only applies to various bow types and not thrown weapons at all.

Am I missing something or should I be off to see Fred?

Cheers.

[Saekee]

Hi,

Please accept my ignorance, but I started following the build as a first time thrower and foolishly without reading I took Weapon Focus Ranged, only after buying did I realise that it only applies to various bow types and not thrown weapons at all.

Am I missing something or should I be off to see Fred?

Cheers.

it is really for the 2 ranged power more than the bonus to hit, so no need to swap--the ranged power is functionally there even if you are not on bows.

However, it is cheap to swap feats at low level so you might as well if you have the funds!

[Lumpsack]

Thanks, greatly appreciated

[Lumpsack]

Hi again,

I'm just coming up to level six and am considering swapping to monk at this point rather than later - to get shuriken usage + wind stance, is there a particular reason for the level order of could I do this part early?

Edit: Nevermind I went ahead and did it

[J-mann]

What Bard Thrower build are you looking at trying?

I am interested as well, I cant see any way to get dex to damage on throwers as a bard without going halfling, which is a 11 point sink (which is hefty), unless a different tack works with throwers (and I persume it does not because it says while single weapon fighting).