Some New Thrower Builds

[jakeelala]

U33 8Monk/6Fighter/6Ranger Furious Monkstar (Half Elf)

When I saw they fixed throwing multipliers I couldn't believe. But I tested it on live and sure enough Kensei multi was working. I know a lot of people are going to ask, "Why are you not using racial AA for the capstone?".

Simple answer is, having x3 crit multiplier coupled to adrenaline with both Sniper Shot and Slayer Arrow is by far the highest ranged burst DPS possible with Shuriken. Matched with a x4 Manyshot + Slayer/Sniper/Adrenaline means you have constant on demand burst damage for IPS or huge red/purple name damage. You lose about 12% Rate of Fire without the bugged AA capstone, but your crits, specifically your dual boosted, adrenaline pumped Slayer and Sniper shurikens do 50% more damage. It's completely awesome. With shadow fade and up to 36% max dodge in Water Stance (more if you take Grandmaster) and around 170AC without trying too hard, your defense is really good. There are some alternative set-ups with APs, this one listed is more defensive oriented and drops KTA. You can easily steal from Kensei, Shintao, and DWS to get the 7AP needed for KTA (with 11 spent in each tree DWS and Kensei).

With the next update nerf to Helf/Human damage boost, I will probably swap to Halfling, as I have missed improved IPS line of sight SO MUCH for the last two years.



Starting Stats (rough guidelines, depends on 28/32pt build):
Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

Levels Progression:

Selected Feat/(Auto Granted Feat)
Level 1 Monk: Shuriken Expertise (Monk), Point Blank Shot (Heroic)
Level 2 Monk: Precision (Monk)
Level 3 Monk: Quick Draw (Heroic)
Level 4 Monk: Precise Shot (Ranger), Rapid Shot (Ranger)
Level 5 Monk:
Level 6 Monk: Adept of Forms (Monk), Completionist (Heroic), Ten Thousand Stars (Monk)
Level 7 Ranger: Bow Strength (Ranger)
Level 8 Ranger: Rapid Shot (Ranger)
Level 9 Ranger: Zen Archery (Heroic)
Level 10 Ranger: Precise Shot (Ranger)
Level 11 Ranger:
Level 12 Ranger: Master of Forms (Heroic), Many Shot (Ranger)
Level 13 Monk:
Level 14 Monk:
Level 15 Fighter: Improved Precise Shot (Heroic), Improved Crit: Thrown (Fighter)
Level 16 Fighter: Dodge or GM of Forms
Level 17 Fighter:
Level 18 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Thrown (Fighter), Weapon Specialization: Thrown (Fighter)
Level 19 Fighter:
Level 20 Fighter:Weapon Focus: Ranged (Fighter)

Epic Feats:
21: Overwhelming Crit
24: Deflect Arrows (could choose something else here, but I like it)
26: Pierce Silver
27: Blinding Speed (only source of 22% Enhancement bonus to Thrown Speed), or Epic Reflxes if you have XV Speed in gear.
28: Doubleshot
29: Harbinger Chaos
30: Scion: Ethereal and either Weapon Specialization Ranged or Sneak of Shadows

Enhancements:
Human: 4AP +2% Attack, +1 Dex, Human Damage Boost
Ninja Spy: 13AP for Advanced Ninja Training, Shadow Fade, 1 SA Dice, +3 Hide and Ki Regen, 3 Dodge Cap, 1 Dex
AA: 34AP, Slayer Arrows and T5 Elemental (Electric), 2 Dex, etc.
Kensei: 13 AP, Contemplation, 2x AB, 1x Attack Boost, T3 Contemplation or T3 Dodge Cap, 3 Cores (+1 Crit Multi), 1 Dex
DWS: 15 AP, Sniper Shot, Faster Sneaking, 3x Stealthy, Melee Power Boost
Shintao: 1 AP

Epic Destinies:

host images

You could still go beast mode in other Destiny's, but Red Named damage is so much better on this build that it's just no contest.

My Current Gear Layout:
Goggles: T3 LGS 38 Dex Skills 70 HP
Head: Legendary Executioners Helm
Necklace: CC Crafted +15 Con/+15 Natural Armor/+7 Insight Con
Cloak: Spell Resist, Dodge 15, +7 Insight Wisdom
Belt: Slavers False Life +68, Deception 14, QPRR11,
Ring 1: Prowess 14 Deadly 28 Accuracy, +3 Mythic
Ring 2: Slavers +Wis 17, Resistance 14, Qual Wis +4,
Gloves: Hamp/Doubleshot/+7 Insight Dex
Bracers: Slavers +17 Dex, Armor Pierce, Tendon Slice, Qual Dex +4
Boots: Sheltering +45, Pos Spell Lore, Qual Con +4
Body: ToEE Robe
Trinket: Epic Litany

Weapons: (ToEE off hand Magnetism 156, Riposte, set bonus)
LGS Radiance Shuri
LGS Vacuum Shuri
LGS Vacuum Long Bow
LGS Triple Pos Shuri

Twists are generally (4/3/2/1/1)
Pierce the Gloom (Never miss a Slayer+Adrenaline shot on a red named again!)
Whirling Wrists
Grim Precision/Pin
Rejuv Cocoon
Enlightenment/Stealthy

[jakeelala]

Archive:
Fury Stars:
12 Ranger/6 Monk/2 Fighter - Human. Lammania Red Kobold kill time: ~71 seconds

Overview:
Everything changed with the new balance pass, and everything that's old is new again. This post lists my current build: centered Human Shuriken/Manyshot Bow hybrid, running in Fury of the Wild with 10k.This build uses Manyshot off timer, dual damage action boosts, and the new and improved 10K for huge bust damage in Fury of the Wild. As noted in Holymunchkin's thread, Adrenaline regen is incredible with IPS and 10k/Manyshot. Unlike that build and some others, I mine makes liberal and constant use of Sniper Shot.

I really don't like Slayer arrow since they nerfed Manyshot. Without 4 guaranteed arrows, the average damage per Slayer/Adrenaline/Manyshot volley has really been reduced. Also, with Ranged Power, Sniper shot is now much more powerful, as base damage has increased greatly since the original Monkchers. This means a +2 Multi from Sniper is now 2/3rds affective as Slayer, but it's available every 6 seconds, instead of Slayers 20. You can use Sniper Shot 4 Times for every slayer arrow. The math works out like this:

At~117'ish RP (50 Wisdom during 10k) and 70 base damage, that's ~152base Damage.The +2 Crit multi from Sniper shot during Adren makes adds 304 base to the shot(152x2), + the x2 from Shuriken for 608 base damage before Adrenaline. Multiplied by 4 that's 2432 Damage.

Slayer adds 152+250x2 =804x4 for Adrenaline= 3216 a Shuriken.

But, In the 20 seconds between a slayer shot and it's cooldown, I can do 4 sniper/adrenaline shots, for 2432x4 Damage = 9728 damage. Now, you could calculate your damage more evenly in the AA/T5 Scenario by adding in 3 more adrenaline shuriken throws (5 Seconds cooldown on Adren means Slayer + 3 Adren throws/20 seconds) without slayer or sniper in the interim for another 152x4 = 608 x 3 = 1824 + 3216 = 5040. That's ~93%% increase in damage (9728 vs 5040). For me, this is a no brainer over T5 AA.

Just to address the Elemental arrow argument: 150'ish proc damage with Elemental arrow on every Shuriken is nice, but it does not make up the difference, and you can easily use AP to get T2 or even 3 of elemental arrows and still be using Sniper shot. I skip Elemental arrows all together because the Damage is already so high on Adrenaline + 10k/Manyshot + Sniper Shot/Head Shot/Aimed Shot/Merciful Shot + Dual Boosts

*These damage calcs are just being done assuming 1 Shuriken/Throw animation. It does not take into account extra dex procs, or Doubleshot, or Throwing speed. But seeing as these are relatively constant between builds, then proc rate of missiles * throw speed/sec can just be considered a constant coefficient for both scenarios of Slayer vs Sniper.

Additionally, Slayer and Sniper are not mutually exclusive. You could take Slayer and Sniper, but you lose 5 damage, 20% Archers Focus damage on red names, 20% Doubleshot, and Head Shot which I find very useful for the Blind. I'd rather not lose all of that for the small extra damage Slayer Arrow offers over Sniper shot. It is perfectly workable however.


Starting Stats (rough guidelines, depends on 28/32pt build):
Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: Rest
Wis: 16
Cha: who cares

Dex, duh. Wisdom is for Ranged Power during 10k, and Int is for Know the Angles.

Levels Progression:

Selected Feat/(Auto Granted Feat)
Level 1 Ranger: PBS (Heroic), Dodge (Human)
Level 2 Monk:Shuriken Expertise (Monk)
Level 3 Monk: Quick Draw (Heroic), Zen Archery (Monk)
Level 4 Monk:
Level 5 Monk:
Level 6 Monk: Precision (Heroic)
Level 7 Monk: 10 Thousand Stars (Monk)
Level 8 Ranger: (Rapid Shot)
Level 9 Ranger: Deflect Arrows (Heroic)
Level 10 Range: Precise Shot (Ranger)
Level 11 Ranger
Level 12 Ranger: Master of Forms (Heroic), Manyshot (Ranger)
Level 13 Ranger
Level 14 Ranger
Level 15 Ranger: Empower Heal (Heroic)
Level 16 Ranger
Level 17 Ranger: Improved Precise Shot (Ranger)
Level 18 Ranger: Grand Master of Forms (Heroic)
Level 19 Fighter: Improved Critical: Thrown
Level 20 Fighter: Improved Critical: Ranged

Epic Feats:
21: Overwhelming Crit
24: Completionist (Or Combar Archery or Weapon Focus Thrown/Ranged)
26: Toughness/Holy Strike/Improved Mage Armor
27: Blinding Speed (only source of 22% Enhancement bonus to Thrown Speed), or Epic Reflxes if you have XV Speed in gear.
28: Doubleshot

Enhancements: These are flexible, but here are some guidelines:
Human: 3AP Damage boost, +1 Dex
Ninja Spy: 11AP for Advanced Ninja Training, and Shadow Fade (this is a defensive choice, feel free to just go 6 for ANT)
Harper: 25AP, KtA, 6 RP, Construct FE, 4 Dex
DWS: 41AP, including 4th core for +1 Crit threat, RP Boost, all 5 T5 abilites, with giant as FE (feel free to change).

There are other possible setups, but this is my favorite. You could do less in Ninja Spy, and pump up AA for some proc damage from Elemental arrows, or take Ki Regen in Henshin with less points in Harper. Kensei has extra action boosts, though I twist extra for 9 which is generally enough. Long fights I can regen them with Draconic Vitality swap in on offhand.

Epic Destinies:
Fury of the Wild. I take 2 Tiers of Primal Scream, 3/3 Fast Healing (this plus Empowered Cure Mod and Cure Light is plenty, no need for Cocoon), Acute Instincts 3/3, Ward Against Weird 1/3, Sense Weakness 3/3, Gird Against Demons 2/2, Fury Eternal, Unbridled Fury.

You could still go beast mode in other Destiny's, but Red Named damage is so much better on this build that it's just no contest.

[jakeelala]

Archive Pre-29 10k Changes

Greetings

I have not updated my old build threads in a long time, so I'm just going to create this consolidated new one. A lot has changed since I posted my first 3 builds (Meteor Shower, Meteor Shower 2, and Tinkerhell). Some of those old builds have weathered the changes better than others.

For instance, the original Meteor Shower (12Monk/5Wiz/3Rogue) has probably weathers the worst. It lacks 5 Rogue levels to max out Mechanic Tier 5, and despite having the UMD to scroll Tensers, which I've reluctantly agreed can be scrolled, though somewhat less ideally than Full-Time. The benefits of Mechanic now fully outweigh the benefits of Full Time Tensers in my opinion.

The Meteor Shower 2 (Dark Stars) is actually still a pretty nice build. All you have to do is swap enhancements around for Tier 5 Mechanic instead of Tensers, and you're pretty much good to go. The 150% scaling of Sneak Attack damage with Ranged Power makes this build still able to hold it's own quite well.

Tinkerhell is also still a great build, with 12Art/5Rogue/3Monk, if you have 3 Epic Doubleshot PL's, and offers the flexibility of being centered or uncentered, along with great Rune Arm damage, and self cast Tensers. However, with the addition of +20 Ranged Power from the ToEE set, there isn't a rune arm available yet that can compete on Proc damage with 8+ levels of Rogue, and 70-130 Ranged Power at end game for Sneak Attack damage. Hence, the following updated builds.


#1: Dark Stars 2.1 - The Balanced Approach
13 Rogue/4 Ranger/3 Monk - Halfling

Overview:
4 Ranger gives 3 Sneak Attack dice in the DWS tree, along with Rams Might, and two crucial feats: Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. 3 Monk gives access to Advanced Ninja Training, and Wind Stance. 13 Rogue gives 7d6 Sneak Attack Dice and 2 Special Rogue feats. This build offers exceptionally high thrower damage, which strong survivability from the option of Improved Evasion.

Starting Stats (rough guidelines, depends on 28/32pt build):
Str: 6
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: depends
Wis: depends
Cha: depends

First three stats are obvious. The last three less so. If you have Harper available, then pumping up your Int and using Know the Angles is a good option. This has the added benefit of bestowing lots of skill points. If you plan on trying to really maximize your investment in SA damage, which is also a good option, put these points into Wisdom for Will Saves, and invest in more SA damage in Assassin and/or Ninja Spy. CHA is basically dump, since you'll only really use it for UMD, which you will have full ranks for.

Levels Progression: This build is not the best for leveling, full transparency. But with 3 Rogue levels front loaded, you can get Dex to Damage with Quarterstaves pretty quickly, or shortswords and Dual wield with Ranger enhancements. For Rogue feats, you could skip opprutunist (though it's a big DPS hit against undead and other high fort enemies) and take Defensive Roll. This allows you to potentially use Thief Acrobat for 5 More Dex, 3 Dodge, and Improved Defensive Roll, if you skip Harper.

Selected Feat/(Auto Granted Feat)
Level 1 Rogue: Point Blank Shot
Level 2 Rogue
Level 3 Rogue: Precision or Weapon Focus Ranged
Level 4 Ranger
Level 5 Ranger: (Rapid Shot)
Level 6 Rogue: Weapon Focus: Thrown
Level 7 Rogue
Level 8 Monk: Deflect Arrows (Monk) or Precision if you took Weapon Focus @Lvl 3
Level 9 Monk: Quickdraw / Shuriken Expertise (Monk)
Level 10 Monk
Level 11 Ranger
Level 12 Ranger: Imp Crit Thrown/(Precise Shot)
Level 13 Rogue
Level 14 Rogue
Level 15 Rogue: Imp. Precise Shot
Level 16 Rogue
Level 17 Rogue: Opportunist (Rogue)
Level 18 Rogue: Completionist (or Dodge, Dragonmark, Weapon Focus: Ranged, dealers choice pretty much)
Level 19 Rogue
Level 20 Rogue: Improved Evasion or Opportunist (Rogue)

Epic Feats:
21: Overwhelming Crit
24: Improved Sneak Attack
26: Toughness/Holy Strike
27: Blinding Speed (only source of 22% Enhancement bonus to Thrown Speed)
28: Doubleshot

Enhancements: These are flexible, but here are some guidelines:
Halfling: Min. 16AP for Master Thrower. Lots of good stuff in this tree like +2 Dex, up to 3 SA Dice which only cost 1 AP, and some dodge enhancements. If you don't have completionist and want extra healing, take Dragonmark and the racial enhancements.
Ninja Spy: Min. 6AP for Advanced Ninja Training.
Mechanic: Min. 37AP, this gets you to Tier 5 for Sharpshooter, Mechanical Reloader, and Doubleshot. Make sure to take Fletcher, and Dex. I also love Wracking Shot, it's damage on Constructs is absurd.
DWS: Min. 6AP for 3 SA Dice (Core 1 and 2, and 3 points in Stealthy)

Play with the leftover AP how you like. This leave you 15 to play with, I like to spend 8AP in Harper for Know the Angles. If you don't have that, dump all the left over points into SA damage if you can. If you do have Harper, I recommend KtA and the rest in Ranged Power (Versatile Adept I/II). You could go more SA damage, but Ranged Power benefits both your existing SA damage and your Physical Damage.

Epic Destinies:
The best Destinies for this build are Legendary Dreadnaught, Shadow Dancer, and Divine Crusader.

With the changes to Blitz, this build will have very little trouble always maintaining it in quests. It turns out, once you have 7+ stacks of Blitz, this build pulls away in LD from Shadowdancer.

Which is surprising, because Shadowdancer is actually an excellent Destiny for this build. SD provides 6 more SA dice, a 5% damage vulnerability proc, 5 'ish Dexterity, 15% Armor Piercing (which is a must twist in any other destiny, Grim Precision), and Executioners shot, which you will find is like a mini Slayer arrow, with an instakill proc that has a DC of around 60 at end game, which is excellent, every 30 seconds. If for some reason you don't think you can keep up 7 or more Blitz stacks in a quest, go with SD.

I don't recommend Divine Crusader unless you need the extra healing, or Petrification Immunity. I use it for Mark of Death, but that's pretty much it.

[jakeelala]

Archive:

Return of the Monk: CC Fury Stars (14 Monk/6 Ranger - Half-Elf)

So this build is very similar to the previous 12/6/2 build I posted (takes T5 DWS, uses Zen Archery for Adrenaline Manyshot off timer and Shuriken's the rest of the time), but it takes advatage of the changes to Manyshot for 70% Doubleshot during Manyshot, aims for very high Wisdom, and takes T4 AA for Paralyzing and Smiting arrows. With a little work and the right gear Paralyzing Arrows on Shuriken DC can reach 55-60. It's a will save, which is low on most mobs. Moreover, when you're throwing 3'ish shuriken per animation, pretty much everything is paralyzed than can be within a couple seconds. It's really fun. Secondaily, I like to take Fount of Life and Scion of Shadowfell for permanent Vampirism on every shuriken, making for enormous amounts of incoming healing all the time.

This build allows for great fort bypass on constructs using Smiting Arrows, Huge Damage from Lightning Arrows (4 teirs @about 400 Spell Power is like 150'ish per Shuriken), and of course Paralyzing Arrows at a basically no fail DC given high Rate of Fire. The only issue with this build currently is that damage avoidance is not as high as I would like. Not having Shadow Fade from Ninja Spy stinks, and I miss Deflect Arrows. Depending on how good the new AA AoE damage attack is I may switch AP's around a bit.

This build utilizes a lot of good work done by CThru over in his "White Feather Sniper" thread in the Ranger section. Highly recommended reading, and I'm not going to repeat all of his calculation for DC here, since the process is identical on a thrower. I go Half Elf for the option to go 41 Pts in AA with the new ability on Lamm coming out, since I don't know if it sucks or not. I lose a feat, but gain some flexibility.

Starting Stats (rough guidelines, depends on 28/32pt build):
Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: Rest
Wis: 16
Cha: who cares

Dex, duh. Wisdom is for Ranged Power during 10k, and Int is for Know the Angles.

Levels Progression:

Selected Feat/(Auto Granted Feat)
Level 1 Ranger: PBS (Heroic), Bow Strength
Level 2 Ranger:
Level 3 Ranger: Quick Draw (Heroic),
Level 4 Ranger: Precise Shot (Ranger), Rapid Shot (Ranger)
Level 5 Ranger:
Level 6 Ranger: Manyshot (Ranger), Completionist (Heroic)
Level 7 Monk: Shuriken Expertise (Monk)
Level 8 Monk: Zen Archery (Monk)
Level 9 Monk: Precision (Heroic)
Level 10 Monk:
Level 11 Monk:
Level 12 Monk: 10k Stars (Monk), IC: Thrown (Monk),
Level 13 Monk:
Level 14 Monk:
Level 15 Monk: Improved Precise Shot (Heroic)
Level 16 Monk:
Level 17 Monk:
Level 18 Monk: Grand Master of Forms (Heroic)
Level 19 Monk:
Level 20 Monk:

Epic Feats:
21: Overwhelming Crit
24: Completionist (Or Combar Archery or Weapon Focus Thrown/Ranged)
26: Toughness/Adamantine Pierce (for if you use LGS Freezing Ice a lot)
27: Blinding Speed (only source of 22% Enhancement bonus to Thrown Speed), or Epic Reflxes if you have XV Speed in gear.
28: Doubleshot
29: This is more complicated. I like to take Fount of Life combined with Scion of Shadowfell. With some HAMP gear you will be healing for 4-21'ish per Shuriken per Enemy. That's a HUGE incoming healing all the time, and only makes huge spikes a problem. The other option is Scion of Feywild for Enchant DCs (I don't think it's worth it) or Scion of Air, which gives additional Electric damage, and 4% Dodge and Cap, and 2 Enchat DCs. Since you will be doing a lot of electric damage with AA damage imbue, this has good synergy, though you lose the constant always on regeneration of HP. I think it comes down to a playstyle decision.
30: See Above.

Enhancements: These are flexible, but here are some guidelines:
Human: 4AP +2% Attack, +1 Dex, Human Damage Boost
Ninja Spy: 6AP for Advanced Ninja Training (3x Dodge)
Harper: 8AP, KtA,
DWS: 36AP, 3 Cores, Damage Boost, Imp Wep Finesse, Aimed Shot, 2 Dex, Favored Hunter, Thrill of the Hunter, 3x Killer, Mercy Shot, Leg Shot, Imp Archers, Strikes Like Lightning, Heavy Draw
AA: 25AP, 2 Cores, 4 Elemental Arrows (I chose electric as I have an Electric Spell Power ToEE set), 3x Force Arrows (immunites) 1 Dex, Terror Arrows, Paralyzing Arrows, Smiting Arrows.
Shintao: 1AP Hamp

Epic Destinies:

host images

You could still go beast mode in other Destiny's, but Red Named damage is so much better on this build that it's just no contest.

My Current Gear Layout:
Goggles: +21 Accuracy, +21 Spot, +5 Insight Wisdom loot gen (Red Named), Swap for Trash: +5 Insight Wisdom, +5 Enchant Focus
Head: +13 Wisdom. +6 Insight Int, +21 Spot
Necklace: Epic Pnedant of Quiet Movements (Blindness Imm)
Cloak: Mysterious Cloak, Spooky Int +2, Spooky Wisdom +2
Belt: Belt of Braided Beards, slot open
Ring 1: Deadly 10, Nat Armor 10
Ring 2: +13 Con, Sheltering 31
Gloves: Epic Claw
Bracers: Epic Claw
Boots: Dex +13, +6 Insight Dex
Body: ToEE Robe
Trinket: Epic Litany

Even with this somewhat limited Enchant DC setup, I have never had any problem keeping mobs paralyzed in LE content. Obviously there are some slots that could be better filled gear wise, but right now it's the best setup I can manage.

Twists are generally (3/3/3/1/1)
Critical Damage
Whirling Wrists
Grim Precision
Rejuv Cocoon
Enlightenment

[Saekee]

Glad to see these bew builds. A few quick questions and points:
1) I thought haste and therefore Blinding Speed was reduced to 15% ranged alacrity from 22%? I know you have done all the tests so just double-checking. I have seen this mentioned in other threads, thought I'd post it
2) Opportunist works on ranged?
3) I have found that secondary imbues from AA as well as slayer arrows work on shurikens. It is probably not WAI but then, comsidering the long list of bugs you posted recently for ranged stuff, it probably is here to stay. I have gone back to tier 5 mechanic to compare--mechanic has much better sustained DPS (I like W&S Mastery and improved traps too) but I miss the effects on mobs (Frost lethargy stacks fast with shurikens so it is like instant Leg Shot) and burst red named DPS.

[LordTigerDawn]

Glad to see these bew builds. A few quick questions and points:
1) I thought haste and therefore Blinding Speed was reduced to 15% ranged alacrity from 22%? I know you have done all the tests so just double-checking. I have seen this mentioned in other threads, thought I'd post it
2) Opportunist works on ranged?
3) I have found that secondary imbues from AA as well as slayer arrows work on shurikens. It is probably not WAI but then, comsidering the long list of bugs you posted recently for ranged stuff, it probably is here to stay. I have gone back to tier 5 mechanic to compare--mechanic has much better sustained DPS (I like W&S Mastery and improved traps too) but I miss the effects on mobs (Frost lethargy stacks fast with shurikens so it is like instant Leg Shot) and burst red named DPS.

From my experience the answers to your questions are:
1) It does not really matter, you end up capping throwing speed with either 15 or 22%.
2) The 10% fort bypass does, which is the part that matters.
3) Yes they do, as does slayer arrows. But wasting that many ap points on anything that does not increase Ranged Power (mechanic), or sneak attack dice (assassin, ninja spy) is a poor decision.
--- Most people will prefer taking leg shot as opposed to sorta like leg shot, Stay Frosty in epic, procs all the time if you ever you feel you need more.

[Saekee]

From my experience the answers to your questions are:
1) It does not really matter, you end up capping throwing speed with either 15 or 22%.
2) The 10% fort bypass does, which is the part that matters.
3) Yes they do, as does slayer arrows. But wasting that many ap points on anything that does not increase Ranged Power (mechanic), or sneak attack dice (assassin, ninja spy) is a poor decision.
--- Most people will prefer taking leg shot as opposed to sorta like leg shot, Stay Frosty in epic, procs all the time if you ever you feel you need more.

Hi, thx for the responses LordTigerDawn.
I agree the AP cost for slayer arrows is great (and is why I am struggling with it), but I am not convinced that it is a poor decision if running in Fury. At least for my flavor build anyway which rotates between manyshot with bow and 10K and all other times with shuriken.

[jakeelala]

Glad to see these bew builds. A few quick questions and points:
1) I thought haste and therefore Blinding Speed was reduced to 15% ranged alacrity from 22%? I know you have done all the tests so just double-checking. I have seen this mentioned in other threads, thought I'd post it

I just spent about 4 hours updating speed tests. I used a test character that is level 27 (so not max BaB even with DP, just 27), under a number of circumstances. I've posted an image of the spreadsheet results below.


Here's a link on Google Drive to the actual Spreadsheet, if you like to download it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5A...ew?usp=sharing

Major Takeaway's from the Latest Tests:

1. Blinding speed does give more alacrity than regular Haste.

2. 15% from Haste is a real world ~9.5% speed boost by itself, and also gives the same ~9.5% increase with Quickdraw trained, and independently gives a ~9.5% speed boost with only Rapid Shot trained. This at BaB 18. Quickdraw seems to increase Reload speed by 33%, times 33% of animation time, = 11% boost, which is just about right.

3. At BaB 27, 15% Haste gives more like ~8.3% speed boost, because BaB speeds up the whole 2 part animation (Throw, Reload: more on that later), whereas Haste only speeds up the Throw animation.

4. Rapid Shot and Quickdraw each give about an 11% Boost independently.

5. Pretty consistently the lower the throw sample size the larger the gain from speed boosts. This is caused by 1 or 2 things: the first is that I count animations by the sound they make, which means I cut off the the final reload animation for every test. As the sample size of animations grows, the relative impact of that cut off final reload animation becomes smaller, thus making it look like throwing is faster in smaller repetitions, which it is not. The second thing could simply be that the error introduced by me having to manually start and stop the stopwatch for each trial is slowly muted over time as the ratio of throw speed approaches is actual mean in an increasing sample.

6. From other testing not listed here, but I hope to add soon, there is no hard cap for Throwing speed, but returns begin to diminish somewhat. 28 BaB is the max base throwing speed, and all forms of alacrity (enhancement, Feat, Enchantment Bonus) simply speed up either the throwing animation, or the reload animation, but not both. BaB speeds up both, I think, and that's why it has such drastic affects on speed. Other threads have tried to calculate the effect of BaB, and MrCow's original figures are here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post4591969

7. See the video I made below (sorry it sucks, filmed with iPhone slo-mo). I've broken down at 240FPS the two stages of a throw. As you can see, the Throw animation itself takes around 67% of the total time elapsed in a throwing animation. The other 33% is the reload animation. At least, that's the case in the test video for a character who has Speed XV (15% Haste) and Rapid Reload trained, and 18 BaB.

This is why it seems like there are diminishing returns, and why 15% haste only translates to about ~9.5% speed increase (15%*67% =10%). At BaB 27, you can see in my linked spreadsheet that Throwing speed increased 16.5% from BaB 18 to BaB 27. About 1.85% per BaB.

8. The speed test's I've done recently but can't seem to find a good spreadhseet for show that the max throwing speed I can achieve is around 1.42 Animations/second. This is with Tensers, Blinding Speed, 28 BaB, Quickdraw, Rapid Shot, T5 Mechanical Reloader, Whirling Wrists, and Gilvenors Set. Every single one of those contributes to that max speed number, but their effects attenuate as you add more of them. Likewise, without BaB 28, they have larger effects on speed.

I will try to add more time trials to my tests over time, but I have a party to go to tonight

[jakeelala]

Glad to see these bew builds. A few quick questions and points:
2) Opportunist works on ranged?

I haven't tested recently, but it previously worked for the Armor Piercing component.

3) I have found that secondary imbues from AA as well as slayer arrows work on shurikens. It is probably not WAI but then, comsidering the long list of bugs you posted recently for ranged stuff, it probably is here to stay. I have gone back to tier 5 mechanic to compare--mechanic has much better sustained DPS (I like W&S Mastery and improved traps too) but I miss the effects on mobs (Frost lethargy stacks fast with shurikens so it is like instant Leg Shot) and burst red named DPS.

So,

This could get fixed anytime
The only really useful one is Vulnerability, which is now easy to obtain on T1 TF
It costs lots of AP for very marginal benefit. I do not recommend this, T5 Mechanic is far superior.

[jakeelala]

From my experience the answers to your questions are:
1) It does not really matter, you end up capping throwing speed with either 15 or 22%.
2) The 10% fort bypass does, which is the part that matters.
3) Yes they do, as does slayer arrows. But wasting that many ap points on anything that does not increase Ranged Power (mechanic), or sneak attack dice (assassin, ninja spy) is a poor decision.
--- Most people will prefer taking leg shot as opposed to sorta like leg shot, Stay Frosty in epic, procs all the time if you ever you feel you need more.

Stingality is an excellent source of information on these topics as well, and I've actually had him inspect some of my calculations recently to verify them. Thanks Sting!

[Saekee]

Fascinating analysis of the mechanics and thanks for clarifying!

I guess the description that blinding speed=being hasted is incorrect. Just as well.

[LordTigerDawn]

Fascinating analysis of the mechanics and thanks for clarifying!

I guess the description that blinding speed=being hasted is incorrect. Just as well.

The other kicker is blinding speed is lvl 27 same as epic reflexes. Not a big deal in the 13 rogue variant, but is a big choice otherwise. Opportunist is the lvl 10.

Jakekeela has done a great job compiling stuff for this thread, looking forward to see everything once it is posted.

[peng]

Selected Feat/(Auto Granted Feat)
Level 1 Rogue: Point Blank Shot
Level 2 Rogue
Level 3 Rogue: Precision
Level 4 Ranger
Level 5 Ranger: (Rapid Shot)
Level 6 Rogue: Weapon Focus: Ranged
Level 7 Rogue
Level 8 Monk: Deflect Arrows (Monk)
Level 9 Monk: Quickdraw / Shuriken Expertise (Monk)
Level 10 Monk
Level 11 Ranger
Level 12 Ranger: Imp Crit Thrown/(Precise Shot)
Level 13 Rogue
Level 14 Rogue
Level 15 Rogue: Imp. Precise Shot
Level 16 Rogue
Level 17 Rogue: Opportunist (Rogue)
Level 18 Rogue: Completionist (or Dodge, Dragonmark, dealers choice pretty much)
Level 19 Rogue
Level 20 Rogue: Improved Evasion or Opportunist (Rogue)

Epic Feats:
21: Overwhelming Crit
24: Improved Sneak Attack
26: Toughness/Holy Strike
27: Blinding Speed (only source of 22% Enhancement bonus to Thrown Speed)
28: Doubleshot

It probably doesn't make much of a difference, but both weap focus thrown and ranged give +2 ranged power. Is weap focus ranged a pre-req for something? If not, it you could go 10 rogue/4 ranger/6 monk, drop focus and completionist/dodge/dragonmark, and grab monk stance feats for more dex (wind) or better prr/crits. Or in your current build you could take both ranged and thrown focus

[Saekee]

It probably doesn't make much of a difference, but both weap focus thrown and ranged give +2 ranged power. Is weap focus ranged a pre-req for something? If not, it you could go 10 rogue/4 ranger/6 monk, drop focus and completionist/dodge/dragonmark, and grab monk stance feats for more dex (wind) or better prr/crits. Or in your current build you could take both ranged and thrown focus

12 rogue is a prereq for improved sneak attack though and the second rogue special ability at 13 is very good

[jakeelala]

It probably doesn't make much of a difference, but both weap focus thrown and ranged give +2 ranged power. Is weap focus ranged a pre-req for something? If not, it you could go 10 rogue/4 ranger/6 monk, drop focus and completionist/dodge/dragonmark, and grab monk stance feats for more dex (wind) or better prr/crits. Or in your current build you could take both ranged and thrown focus

Hey Wow! Awesome suggestion. I can't believe I never thought of that!

I will add it as an option a few places for people. Thanks. Also, that is a typo you found, it's supposed to be Weapon Focus Thrown, but as you identified it could be either and both stack.

As Saekee said, 13 Rogue build is to max out SA dice, and get a 2nd rogue feat. Additionally, the build I recommend going 6 Monk for 10K stars is if you don't have 3 Epic Doubleshot PL's on. I've largely done away with 10K on my thrower builds. It doesn't offer much above Doubleshot, it requires a big AP and possibly Twist investment for passive Ki, and and of course it requires 6 monk levels which can go to something better.

I have a reserved spot for an 8Rogue/6Monk/6Ranger build here which does use 10k, but it's only recommended for people who who don't have those PL's, and/or wants to use a bow part of the time.

[Saekee]

Was thinking about your test results and recalled psychoosi's old Dread Ninja. Would a halfling 12 wiz/5 rogue/3 monk be a good thrower? BAB delays feats and kite speed is poor, but you can self-cast extended Tensors, displacement and Haste, run as a wraith with perma incorp, and have all the spellcasting goodies like DDoor. AP is tight so I assume there would not be enough for adding EK imbues and defenses, or coupling venomed blades with sting.

Another option could be to swap 3 monk for 3 bard and get the swashbuckling goodies on a thrower along with tier 5 mechanic. Tier 5 bard is good in its own right and probably the better choice? (but mech gets the ranged power, throw speed and doubleshot that would be nice with the tier 3 bard doubleshot) Anyway curious to see your bardic thrower.

[LordTigerDawn]

Was thinking about your test results and recalled psychoosi's old Dread Ninja. Would a halfling 12 wiz/5 rogue/3 monk be a good thrower? BAB delays feats and kite speed is poor, but you can self-cast extended Tensors, displacement and Haste, run as a wraith with perma incorp, and have all the spellcasting goodies like DDoor. AP is tight so I assume there would not be enough for adding EK imbues and defenses, or coupling venomed blades with sting.

Another option could be to swap 3 monk for 3 bard and get the swashbuckling goodies on a thrower along with tier 5 mechanic. Tier 5 bard is good in its own right and probably the better choice? (but mech gets the ranged power, throw speed and doubleshot that would be nice with the tier 3 bard doubleshot) Anyway curious to see your bardic thrower.

The problem really comes down to ap invest. 20 plus to wiz for wraith, is 20 not spent on dps. With the 16 spent in halfling there goes half your ap. adding ek makes it even worse... You need 37 for mechanic. 6 for ninja spy.

Ap is huge limiting factor.

[jakeelala]

The problem really comes down to ap invest. 20 plus to wiz for wraith, is 20 not spent on dps. With the 16 spent in halfling there goes half your ap. adding ek makes it even worse... You need 37 for mechanic. 6 for ninja spy.

Ap is huge limiting factor.

Agreed. AP are the hardest part of this build, across Ranger, Rogue, and Halfling there are many good options. If you want self cast Haste and Displace (which I think is unesc. now that 25% displacement is ubiquitous on items) you can actually still go 9Rogue/6Monk/5Wiz (OG Dark Stars) or better yet 12Rogue/3Monk/5Wiz which loses Ranger feats and DWS options (which is a lot to swallow) but it does open up better self cast buffs and ISA, so it could be feasible. I'll see if the feats work out today after work.

[jakeelala]

also whoever came in here and gave negative stars to the threads ratings without commenting, thanks!

Super constructive

[Saekee]

The problem really comes down to ap invest. 20 plus to wiz for wraith, is 20 not spent on dps. With the 16 spent in halfling there goes half your ap. adding ek makes it even worse... You need 37 for mechanic. 6 for ninja spy.

Ap is huge limiting factor.

Was actually thinking 12 wizard for self-casting Tenser's, the rest was gravy