Shavarath Reavers

[noinfo]

And this is how it should be, a Good player can customize a caster per quest or area. And they should have to use some tactics in the scenarios where they can't instakill, nuke, blast etc everything in sight.

Some might disagree, but IMO there should be even more attention to schools etc...

So can I ask how you run your Wizard? Provide the spells you are using in there so we can all benefit?

Others have made some suggestions as a pretty weak work around doing the best they can while others classes just seem to be able to power through.

Its amazing how the most gear intensive type in game should be ok with being substandard while others can just go at it.

Until we get a significant boost in the variety of spells in game this is pretty much a joke.

[Ape_Man]

So can I ask how you run your Wizard? Provide the spells you are using in there so we can all benefit?

he doesn't play a wizard.

[Chai]

There is a problem that needs to be addressed. Melees need to suffer the same treatment. As it stands, I don't think there is any content that punishes you for using melee and ranged weapons. As far as I can tell, these guys are out performing casters everywhere (except maybe heroics for reasons I won't go into), and there is no price they pay for it. A good a place to start thinking about how to make weapon users pay would be to start thinking about monster fortification. Critical hits are in an absurd state.

Casters already have the advantage there. There is no fortification which stops critical damage. Melee has to put up with that, not casters. Right now casters can get up to ~50% crit chance, some even slightly higher.

What DC casters have to put up with is speccing for pass/fail mechanics while melee and damage casters spec for incremental mechanics. This is what makes DC casting more trappy than anything else. When it works its the quickest way to kill mobs. When it doesn't its the slowest.

Good luck on ever getting DDO to nerf the significance of damage dealing. It hasn't happened in 9 years. There have been multiple eras when DC casters were god mode and multiple eras when DC casters were low in the character power food chain. While different damage dealing builds have been optimal in different eras, damage dealing significance has remained constant throughout. It is the safest thing to build for.

[davmuzl]

I think the "necro vs enchant vs evoc" thought process has a whole lot more to do with the potency of the effects and number of useful spells in those schools than anything else.


Most worthwhile necro spells kill the enemy outright. When it lands, that's the ultimate effect. Between Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, and in some content, Circle of Death and/or Undeath to Death, you can usefully kill things with necromancy. However, that's still a limited number of spells with long cooldowns, so it's not enough by itself.

Enchantment is potent because it stops mobs dead in their tracks without maximum number of targets, has short cooldowns, and in the case of holds, makes them helpless. If you can't kill mobs, then being able to stop them and make them very susceptible to damage is the next best thing.

Evocation has more limited DC-casting applications - earthquake is the biggest example that comes to mind - but is important if you want to cast DPS elemental spells. Given that there are lots of tradeoffs to maxing DCs, most DPS spellcaster builds mostly avoid spells with saves.



There's no meaningful incentive to max any other schools. Illusion gets you...phantasmal killer? So that you can get a second FoD effect but with two saves, the same heightened mana cost, at a much lower DC that makes it not worth the effort? Conjuration helps with Web, which is rarely better than enchantment spells, and acid spell saves, of which there are few worth casting.





If you want to move us to a world where individual save types matter more than schools, then you've got to do a major pass on high level spells. People are pigeonholed into the only schools and elements which have enough worthwhile spells to cast. There's not really any choice with effects - you max necro then enchant on an arcane because those are the only ones that give you efficient non-DPS tools and you max evocation otherwise because it's the only one that matters for some ways of doing damage.

By and large though, people have been dodging the issue of saves altogether for years because high level spells largely don't provide much DPS in epics; they are few and all have noticeable cooldowns. Why run a squishy caster when you can just spam magic missile with Shiradi and spend your gear slots on survivability to do similar damage?

Everything in this post is true. The most important spell school outside of those 3 is transumation and only because it helps so much in MoD.
If I had the option I would rework the wizard enhancements. Make specific trees for enchantment, evocation and necromancy (this one could be the existing PM tree with some SLAs) and make give the for the rest of the spells group multiple spell schools into 1 tree. There could be a transmutation and conjuration tree. SLAs for invis, jump, haste, etc are completly useless. The damage spell SLAs are the really interesting ones right now.

I also think the way debuffing works should be looked at.
Right now debuffs are nice if you can land your spells fairly reliable. You can then push for a little more.
The most important debuffs at the moment are curse and crushing despair. Both with a will save. Both in already powerful spellschools. They don't really help when you are trying to land a mass hold, because if an enemy saves a mass hold then he is probably also going to save the other spell.
Instead the debuffs need either different saves or no saves at all.

[davmuzl]

So can I ask how you run your Wizard? Provide the spells you are using in there so we can all benefit?

Others have made some suggestions as a pretty weak work around doing the best they can while others classes just seem to be able to power through.

Its amazing how the most gear intensive type in game should be ok with being substandard while others can just go at it.

Until we get a significant boost in the variety of spells in game this is pretty much a joke.

There are more than enough spells already in the game. It's just a question if they actually work the way they are supposed to. And I'm not talking about buffs here. But most spells simply aren't used at all.
Look at power word stun/blind/kill. Really powerful spells, but they can't be used because the really powerful enemies are all immune.
Charm spells are nice, but in a lot of quests you have to kill everything and charmed also means you can't kill it so no conquest bonus.
Most damaging spells aren't used because they aren't efficient enough. It's really bad when an enemy saves your maximized empowered "anything".

[Captain_Wizbang]

he doesn't play a wizard.

Just when I was starting to like you.........

Casters already have the advantage there. There is no fortification which stops critical damage. Melee has to put up with that, not casters. Right now casters can get up to ~50% crit chance, some even slightly higher.

What DC casters have to put up with is speccing for pass/fail mechanics while melee and damage casters spec for incremental mechanics. This is what makes DC casting more trappy than anything else. When it works its the quickest way to kill mobs. When it doesn't its the slowest.

Good luck on ever getting DDO to nerf the significance of damage dealing. It hasn't happened in 9 years. There have been multiple eras when DC casters were god mode and multiple eras when DC casters were low in the character power food chain. While different damage dealing builds have been optimal in different eras, damage dealing significance has remained constant throughout. It is the safest thing to build for.

Well said Chai

[Ape_Man]

Just when I was starting to like you.........

You can still like me.

Well said Chai

Chai's statement on fortification is nonsense. Total DPS matters, a 50% crit range on spells is a re herring.

[Hobgoblin]

That's obvious.

Why do people who don't even play these classes think they can offer and input of any value?

ya know what is obvious?

reading comprehension

op asked for a way to crowd control on a wizard!

Hey this spell knocks things down, hmmm i remember not using it for some reason, is it bugged? hmmm

So I am very sorry that all you have is negative thoughts and i pray you get better.

If you truly hate the game,

please leave.

[Ape_Man]

ya know what is obvious?

reading comprehension

op asked for a way to crowd control on a wizard!

Hey this spell knocks things down, hmmm i remember not using it for some reason, is it bugged? hmmm

So I am very sorry that all you have is negative thoughts and i pray you get better.

If you truly hate the game,

please leave.

So you don't know anything about wizards because you don't play one, I call you out on it and you respond with violence.

Makes a lot of sense.

[Hobgoblin]

So you don't know anything about wizards because you don't play one, I call you out on it and you respond with violence.

Makes a lot of sense.

violence?

how is it violent?


And you are avoiding the issue.

I was a wizard for a long time

op asked for a way to cc a type of enemy

I responded with an alternative spell, and you respond with a personal attack

this might make you feel better.



in retrospect:

[Ape_Man]

You had me at pizza . . .

[Hobgoblin]

You can still like me.




Chai's statement on fortification is nonsense. Total DPS matters, a 50% crit range on spells is a re herring.

as you can get to about the same crit range on meele (11-20) that point (chai's) is irrelevant

[Hobgoblin]

You had me at pizza . . .

[MonadRebelion]

Casters already have the advantage there. There is no fortification which stops critical damage. Melee has to put up with that, not casters. Right now casters can get up to ~50% crit chance, some even slightly higher.

What DC casters have to put up with is speccing for pass/fail mechanics while melee and damage casters spec for incremental mechanics. This is what makes DC casting more trappy than anything else. When it works its the quickest way to kill mobs. When it doesn't its the slowest.

Good luck on ever getting DDO to nerf the significance of damage dealing. It hasn't happened in 9 years. There have been multiple eras when DC casters were god mode and multiple eras when DC casters were low in the character power food chain. While different damage dealing builds have been optimal in different eras, damage dealing significance has remained constant throughout. It is the safest thing to build for.

Seems like you misunderstood me. It sounds like you think I'm suggesting mobs should get crit protection against casters. I'm saying they should get crit protection against weapon users. Dodge, someone else said, would also be nice. There is almost no meaningful fortification that weapon users have to deal with in the game. Having creatures that put an end to the almost universally applicable high dps of weapon users would go some way toward evening out the playing field.

[MonadRebelion]

Melees out-perform casters even in content where the caster's DCs are no-fail.

Please explain to me why content like this new pack makes any sense.

I'm not sure we have a real disagreement. I think the fact that casters are out performed in the new Shavarath stuff isn't intrinsically bad. What I think is bad is that melees out perform casters universally. So, for some people the new Shavarath has the feel of putting salt in a wound. I get that. What I think needs to happen are some adjustments so melees are put on a more level playing field. The diversity of challenges in the game should make it so sometimes melees have the advantage, sometimes casters do, sometimes no one does. As it stands weapon users are in a position of universal advantage. I agree this is a problem, but I don't think Shavarath is the cause of this problem. I think some of the Shavarath hate boils down to salting wounds.

[davmuzl]

Melees do not outperform casters when casters can land their spells. Not all the time.
It is true that melees are stronger in the endgame right now, but the goal shouldn't be to make either stronger than the other and imo not even to make them as strong as the other. The goal should be to promote teamwork.

The casters goal shouldn't necessarily be to keep up with a melee in terms of DPS, but it should be to make use of the different spells he has access to.
Where this works out really well is when a caster can land a hold spell so he and the other party members deal more damage.
I don't think it's that bad when Melees deal overall more damage. Burst damage is another topic of course.

The only way to promote teamwork and diverse playstyles is to make the content actually challenging (and not by just increasing mob stats and the number of mobs) and also making sure that stacking up stuff like prr and mp isn't as effective. Yes these stats should make a character better, but when the whole character creation process (including gear layout) comes down to how high can I get those 2 stats (along with hp and other damage bonuses) it's not very interesting.

[Portalcat]

The most important debuffs at the moment are curse and crushing despair. Both with a will save. Both in already powerful spellschools. They don't really help when you are trying to land a mass hold, because if an enemy saves a mass hold then he is probably also going to save the other spell.
Instead the debuffs need either different saves or no saves at all.

The most important debuff is Enervation SLA because it's cheap and can get spammed before every Finger of Death. The second most important debuff is Energy Drain. Both also have the benefit of giving you something efficient and valuable to do against orange names.

The third most important debuff is hypnotism, because it helps set up your mass holds even if the hypnotism gets saved against.



Again, we're pigeonholed into the only things that have enough high level spells to make them useful. The most important debuffs are thus the ones that extend your ability to land those spells.

[DDOKillingMachine]

We see players thinking about attacking Reflex, Will, or Fortitude and using the spells appropriate to the monsters in those cases

And this is a perfectly legitimate approach. But ONLY if you expand the number of spells available in the game. There are still dozens of spells from the books that are absent in DDO and should be added. Honestly, I'd like to see an update this year that is devoted solely to adding in all of the missing spells for all casters.

Something else I'd like to see in such an update is the addition of level 0 spells. Take the 1st level spells that are actually level 0, kick them down to level 0 and open up those 1st level slots for casters. Then go through and add everything from Alarm to Fly to Wish. Give casters the power and versatility they are supposed to have.

I know, it's probably only wishful thinking.

[noinfo]

There are more than enough spells already in the game. It's just a question if they actually work the way they are supposed to. And I'm not talking about buffs here. But most spells simply aren't used at all.
Look at power word stun/blind/kill. Really powerful spells, but they can't be used because the really powerful enemies are all immune.
Charm spells are nice, but in a lot of quests you have to kill everything and charmed also means you can't kill it so no conquest bonus.
Most damaging spells aren't used because they aren't efficient enough. It's really bad when an enemy saves your maximized empowered "anything".

The reason those spells are not used:

Charm is a joke in Epic content past EN epic ward
Highest level "DPS" spells often are not due to the fact that they are horrible to remotely sustain and therefore not worth it in most cases, not enough to even really be a burst effect.
Orange named in epics make the immune or resistant beyond heroic levels.

Power word are actually very good (after they have fixed the 100k limit) but cool downs are so long for pwk and they are all single target.

[noinfo]

Just when I was starting to like you.........




Well said Chai

And I wonder if he thinks that it right though?