U27 Enlightened Spirit Adjustments

[TheWalruss]

If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics.

Great idea:
The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%). OR scales 100% heroic and 150% epic
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x). OR 10x heroic and 15x epic

My proposal(s);

These all seem like better alternatives.

Warlocks are perfect in EE. Please don't change that.

[IronClan]

Remember that time when I asked Varg repeatedly to address the fact that Warlocks were in clear danger of completely eclipsing SP based nukers in AOE damage? Well look what happened... they either intentionally or accidentally did just that. Ignored my requests to discuss the problem or somehow missed the multiple different posts I made asking them specifically about this.

It's really rather simple, Warlocks have the best AOE in the game and it uses zero resource of any type they can't POSSIBLY Nerf it enough to make any other form of Nuking comparable because it's a new paid class and even this nerf (which is mathematically probably not even a quarter of whats necessary), is not going to get close to allowing SP based heroic spell AOE's to compare. So the only way they're going to be able to balance heroic AOE abilities is a huge buff to them (which is a good thing because it's arguably necessary to buff SP based nuking even before Warlock came along and shined a bright light on it).

Eldritch cleaves are just like Barbarian Cleaves, O REALLY?!

Realistic average weapon damage + static damage bonus on a Barb cleave/great/supreme
110/115/120
Realistic % scaling of this base damage from Melee power (say 75 no blitz to 145 with I'll round it to 150)
150%

Average Eldritch blast/burst/pact combined damage on Spirit Blast:
102
Realistic Spell power scaling of this base damage:
420% scaled by 150% = 630%
Can be spammed with the T3 blast (alternating between them effectively making the cooldown the equivalent of 2.5 seconds)

For the sake of completeness lets look at a SP based Nuker
90 average base damage (DBF, Chain Lightning etc.)
500% scaling
65 spell point cost
Single elements are Highly resisted by many mobs
Save for half damage, Evocation DC investment required
.6 less crit multiplier

I think it's very fair to say that the Eldritch "Cleaves" totally eclipse any AOE any other class can do* excluding destiny stuff of course, I warned about this... I am not including much of the extra damage available (strong pact damage, the 18 core 3d6, Penetrating blast 1d6 etc.) nor even trying to factor the wonderful spammed blast riders like Stackable minus 4 fort debuff, 10% chance at confusion, 10% chance to slow etc.)

Quick showing of work (note I'm sure I missed something I am not trying to be exhaustive):
Cleaves (Normal/Great/Supreme) Typical Pulverizor/T5 Rav/Capstone FB (+45 Stat mod, 12 TF ench, 11 deadly, 20 average vorpal capstone, not including 25 storms eye due to health requirement so lets call it +80 to 110 static damage bonus sustainable can be more.
+1[W]/+2[W]/+3[W] 4.5[W]1d10 TF Maul (30.25/35.75/41.75)
Base Damage: 110.25/115.75/121.25 (with +80 from static damage bonus)
% scaling: 100% of give or take say 75 to 145 melee power
Critical multiplier 16-18X3 19-20X5 (15% and 10% chances)
180-ish degree arc

Eldritch "Cleaves":
3d6 or 10d6 Light +9d6 force and 10d4 pact (at least probably more) +3d6 (possibly another 3d6 from core 18 possibly much more from strong pact)
Base Damage 77.5/102 (T3 and T5 AOE's)
Spell power ~420, 40-50-ish via enhancements, 20 from epic spell power, 36 implement bonus, 150 TF stick, 100 Maximize, 75 Empower (much more available if built for as in I didn't include spellcraft/perform etc.)
Crits: 5% +22% TF stick (much more available if built/geared for, example Mental toughness and Golden Orb) 27% chance for X2.6
360* arc

*SP based Nukes:
90 average base damage 20d3+60 Delayed blast FB and Chain Lightning for example
500 Spell power same as above but more spell power available in most SP based caster trees also more of course from many sources (again many forms of spell power that are common to all classes are not included, spell power pots, spellcraft, destiny +30's etc. 500 is a conservative estimate same as for Warlock)
25+25+15 Base SP cost + Max + Empower
Crits: X2 on anywhere from 30% to 50% of casts

On the bright side it's time to give SP based casters back their Crit multiplier enhancements not much else they can do.. they would have to nerf the living ess out of Spirit blast both T5 and T3 by 150 to 200% spell power to even get close to balance on this due to the big advantage in multiplier, the big advantage in base damage, the lack of DC investment and the complete lack of cost and 150% scaling, 120% scaling wont even get close.

I don't hate to say I told you so.

What would get close?
no increased spell power scaling (scales with 100%)
costs 30-50sp
All of the blast subject to save for half damage

And it would still be better than casting any heroic AOE spell because the base damage (add up all the stuff I left out + the riders). Of course this would leave it much like heroic AOE spells, pretty undesirable in Epic.

[Rhysem]

{quoted for the spell powers}

One way to think about whether you really think that the abilities are balanced or not is to compare it to something else that is considered good.

With those numbers (and ignoring crits) an acid energy burst will deal 3078.32 every 30 seconds and requires a tier 4 twist.

the NERFED burst and blast will be dealing 1317.906 and 1476.414 for a total of 2794.32 every 5 seconds... and you can twist sense weakness in instead of eburst

Class cores(/enchancements) should probably be stronger (or fireable more often) than the epic talents -- otherwise once you get epic it doesn't matter what class you were originally.

[Rhysem]

Remember that time when I asked Varg repeatedly to address the fact that Warlocks were in clear danger of completely eclipsing SP based nukers in AOE damage? Well look what happened... they either intentionally or accidentally did just that. Ignored my requests to discuss the problem or somehow missed the multiple different posts I made asking them specifically about this.

If that's what it takes to make Warlock competitive with the revamped barb/bard/pallie(/rogue?), then so be it. It isn't warlocks fault that they got put out before the other casters got buffed. TBH, when caster buffs come through given what they've done to barb/bard/pallie/rogue, I expect warlocks to look gimped if this nerf goes through as proposed.

Although having rolled with an air savant sorc, the air savant was pretty **** impressive all on his own with plenty of AoE and he never shrined on HE or any of the epics including some EE we ran. He felt easily similarly powered to my now-18 TS warlock.

All this does is puts ES behind TS or SE.


What I don't get here is why? The auras while good are risky. They're PBAoE. You have to get right up in the mobs face. Most caster examples may do less damage, but they do it from range. TS and SE aren't really behind in the damage department, and they get to work from the safety of range. Nerfing the damage and the defense at the same time is a sure recipe for doing it too far. It won't mean warlocks aren't still great -- it'll mean there's no point in a 5-level warlock splash (well, I guess the temp hp are still good, but probably not worth giving up other classes T5 for) and it'll mean there's no point in building a ES warlock.

This really needs to leave the power for ES there for heavy warlock builds (increases at 12, 18, and 20 via the cores would be perfect). Turning it to scale off the base EB dice would work too (maybe nicer, since splash builds could improve it in epics via feats if they so chose).


I mean I'll try it when it goes live -- but I'll have just done 1 to 28 as TS, and 25 to 28 as a ES (who spent the years-old free LR+20 heart to become warlock ES from gimp FvS). If it sucks too hard, I will only have the 20->28 to deal with once and on my usual 14 day casual stroll to 28 on EN, then I can flip back to TS or SE. But I won't be happy -- I like the melee PBAoE ES style, reminds me of some of my favorite CoX characters I ran (stone melee/electric armor FTW! Not the most "optimal" build according to the ubers, but an epic good time to be sure). I could in theory do the same with barb (which was my last life) and cleaves, but it didn't quite feel the same. Not sure why. Maybe it was having to listen to all the annoying "HUUURRRAAAA" all the time.


You want to see complaining, what till the people paying 100s of astral shards for lantern rings on the ASAH who don't normally read the forums find this nerf. I wonder if I should hawk the one I had stashed for myself before prices drop on it again...

[Krumm]

If that's what it takes to make Warlock competitive with the revamped barb/bard/pallie(/rogue?), then so be it. It isn't warlocks fault that they got put out before the other casters got buffed. TBH, when caster buffs come through given what they've done to barb/bard/pallie/rogue, I expect warlocks to look gimped if this nerf goes through as proposed.

Although having rolled with an air savant sorc, the air savant was pretty **** impressive all on his own with plenty of AoE and he never shrined on HE or any of the epics including some EE we ran. He felt easily similarly powered to my now-18 TS warlock.

All this does is puts ES behind TS or SE.


What I don't get here is why? The auras while good are risky. They're PBAoE. You have to get right up in the mobs face. Most caster examples may do less damage, but they do it from range. TS and SE aren't really behind in the damage department, and they get to work from the safety of range. Nerfing the damage and the defense at the same time is a sure recipe for doing it too far. It won't mean warlocks aren't still great -- it'll mean there's no point in a 5-level warlock splash (well, I guess the temp hp are still good, but probably not worth giving up other classes T5 for) and it'll mean there's no point in building a ES warlock.

This really needs to leave the power for ES there for heavy warlock builds (increases at 12, 18, and 20 via the cores would be perfect). Turning it to scale off the base EB dice would work too (maybe nicer, since splash builds could improve it in epics via feats if they so chose).


I mean I'll try it when it goes live -- but I'll have just done 1 to 28 as TS, and 25 to 28 as a ES (who spent the years-old free LR+20 heart to become warlock ES from gimp FvS). If it sucks too hard, I will only have the 20->28 to deal with once and on my usual 14 day casual stroll to 28 on EN, then I can flip back to TS or SE. But I won't be happy -- I like the melee PBAoE ES style, reminds me of some of my favorite CoX characters I ran (stone melee/electric armor FTW! Not the most "optimal" build according to the ubers, but an epic good time to be sure). I could in theory do the same with barb (which was my last life) and cleaves, but it didn't quite feel the same. Not sure why. Maybe it was having to listen to all the annoying "HUUURRRAAAA" all the time.


You want to see complaining, what till the people paying 100s of astral shards for lantern rings on the ASAH who don't normally read the forums find this nerf. I wonder if I should hawk the one I had stashed for myself before prices drop on it again...

To be honest, Warlock in ES aura/burst mode is the easy button atm.
It's arguable whether or not Warlocks (in ES) is OP as Barbs & Pallies but Warlock at level 24 will have access to 150 light spell power items from tier 2 thunderforged items. It's pretty much burst/burst to clean out at level EE quests.
Also, with combination of medium armor, shining through & displacement, you get a lot of time to heal yourself (espacially if you have some past lives that adds prr).

As many players have stated in this thread, perhaps not as OP as Barbs & Pallies but much easier to equip/build/play... the easy button.


And I did use a heart of wood to make a PDK 18warlock/2pally build for myself (after seeing how powerful ES builds were with a morninglord 18warlock/1fighter/1cleric test build).
I've just reached 24 on this PDK build and I am clearing pretty much "most" EE content without any effort.

So while I am dis-hearten with the nerf, it's probably well deserved... IMHO





btw, with this build, I actually survive a lot of crippling lags now...

[zeonardo]

This is a joke.
This has to be a joke.
From 150% to 120%?
So instead of hitting like a boeing 777 it now hits like a 747?
Instead of clearing the whole Eberron and Forgotten Healms altogether with a single cleave from the guild boat now they will have to actualy zone into those areas?

Seriously... what were you guys thinking?
150% ?
Even 120% ??
Hope you're selling it good enough to keep the game going.

[Chai]

Remember that time when I asked Varg repeatedly to address the fact that Warlocks were in clear danger of completely eclipsing SP based nukers in AOE damage? Well look what happened... they either intentionally or accidentally did just that. Ignored my requests to discuss the problem or somehow missed the multiple different posts I made asking them specifically about this.

It's really rather simple, Warlocks have the best AOE in the game and it uses zero resource of any type they can't POSSIBLY Nerf it enough to make any other form of Nuking comparable because it's a new paid class and even this nerf (which is mathematically probably not even a quarter of whats necessary), is not going to get close to allowing SP based heroic spell AOE's to compare. So the only way they're going to be able to balance heroic AOE abilities is a huge buff to them (which is a good thing because it's arguably necessary to buff SP based nuking even before Warlock came along and shined a bright light on it).

Eldritch cleaves are just like Barbarian Cleaves, O REALLY?!

Realistic average weapon damage + static damage bonus on a Barb cleave/great/supreme
110/115/120
Realistic % scaling of this base damage from Melee power (say 75 no blitz to 145 with I'll round it to 150)
150%

Average Eldritch blast/burst/pact combined damage on Spirit Blast:
102
Realistic Spell power scaling of this base damage:
420% scaled by 150% = 630%
Can be spammed with the T3 blast (alternating between them effectively making the cooldown the equivalent of 2.5 seconds)

For the sake of completeness lets look at a SP based Nuker
90 average base damage (DBF, Chain Lightning etc.)
500% scaling
65 spell point cost
Single elements are Highly resisted by many mobs
Save for half damage, Evocation DC investment required
.6 less crit multiplier

I think it's very fair to say that the Eldritch "Cleaves" totally eclipse any AOE any other class can do* excluding destiny stuff of course, I warned about this... I am not including much of the extra damage available (strong pact damage, the 18 core 3d6, Penetrating blast 1d6 etc.) nor even trying to factor the wonderful spammed blast riders like Stackable minus 4 fort debuff, 10% chance at confusion, 10% chance to slow etc.)

Quick showing of work (note I'm sure I missed something I am not trying to be exhaustive):
Cleaves (Normal/Great/Supreme) Typical Pulverizor/T5 Rav/Capstone FB (+45 Stat mod, 12 TF ench, 11 deadly, 20 average vorpal capstone, not including 25 storms eye due to health requirement so lets call it +80 to 110 static damage bonus sustainable can be more.
+1[W]/+2[W]/+3[W] 4.5[W]1d10 TF Maul (30.25/35.75/41.75)
Base Damage: 110.25/115.75/121.25 (with +80 from static damage bonus)
% scaling: 100% of give or take say 75 to 145 melee power
Critical multiplier 16-18X3 19-20X5 (15% and 10% chances)
180-ish degree arc

Eldritch "Cleaves":
3d6 or 10d6 Light +9d6 force and 10d4 pact (at least probably more) +3d6 (possibly another 3d6 from core 18 possibly much more from strong pact)
Base Damage 77.5/102 (T3 and T5 AOE's)
Spell power ~420, 40-50-ish via enhancements, 20 from epic spell power, 36 implement bonus, 150 TF stick, 100 Maximize, 75 Empower (much more available if built for as in I didn't include spellcraft/perform etc.)
Crits: 5% +22% TF stick (much more available if built/geared for, example Mental toughness and Golden Orb) 27% chance for X2.6
360* arc

*SP based Nukes:
90 average base damage 20d3+60 Delayed blast FB and Chain Lightning for example
500 Spell power same as above but more spell power available in most SP based caster trees also more of course from many sources (again many forms of spell power that are common to all classes are not included, spell power pots, spellcraft, destiny +30's etc. 500 is a conservative estimate same as for Warlock)
25+25+15 Base SP cost + Max + Empower
Crits: X2 on anywhere from 30% to 50% of casts

On the bright side it's time to give SP based casters back their Crit multiplier enhancements not much else they can do.. they would have to nerf the living ess out of Spirit blast both T5 and T3 by 150 to 200% spell power to even get close to balance on this due to the big advantage in multiplier, the big advantage in base damage, the lack of DC investment and the complete lack of cost and 150% scaling, 120% scaling wont even get close.

I don't hate to say I told you so.

What would get close?
no increased spell power scaling (scales with 100%)
costs 30-50sp
All of the blast subject to save for half damage

And it would still be better than casting any heroic AOE spell because the base damage (add up all the stuff I left out + the riders). Of course this would leave it much like heroic AOE spells, pretty undesirable in Epic.

Supporting the nerf means less overhead to work with when casters get their revamp. Want to see casters in the same ballpark as melee? Let them keep the overhead warlock provides in place as a benchmark for the future caster pass. Other wise Ill be the one saying "told you so" when new class revamps are lackluster, due to the hilarious amounts of nerf requests after every single revamp, combined with me making the same "leave this alone so future passes have the overhead" argument repeatedly.

that barbarian damage is way off btw. I see much higher numbers than that for cleave damage numbers, and my barbarian isn't anywhere near maxed out. I also see a lot more one shot kills using AOE spells on my sorc than spamming the cleaves on the warlock. In fact, There are places where I can spam both cleaves and still not kill the same group of mobs I have one shot killed on a sorc.

[IronClan]

If a zero cost blast with 10% to confuse, debuff fort save, slow etc. does 2000DPS (just say) then what DPS must DBF and Chain lightning that costs 65sp per cast, has half damage on save (instead of just the pact damage) and has no nifty rider procs do?

IMO this is the only question that matters right now to SP based casters. Varg clearly knows there will need to be some buffs handed out he started a thread about it himself.

Rhysem brings up some completely fair points about the ES cleaves having point blank range while the AOE's in the other tress have similar (almost identical) power and are ranged. If the ES cleaves are OP so are the wave and ball AOE's (less so the ball as that has a resource counter use and can not be spammed).

[IronClan]

Supporting the nerf means less overhead to work with when casters get their revamp. Want to see casters in the same ballpark as melee? Let them keep the overhead warlock provides in place as a benchmark for the future caster pass. Other wise Ill be the one saying "told you so" when new class revamps are lackluster, due to the hilarious amounts of nerf requests after every single revamp, combined with me making the same "leave this alone so future passes have the overhead" argument repeatedly.

that barbarian damage is way off btw. I see much higher numbers than that for cleave damage numbers, and my barbarian isn't anywhere near maxed out. I also see a lot more one shot kills using AOE spells on my sorc than spamming the cleaves on the warlock. In fact, There are places where I can spam both cleaves and still not kill the same group of mobs I have one shot killed on a sorc.

You are welcome to do the math yourself with more exhaustive numbers than mine as I said I was keeping it conservative (for all three examples) and I showed my math. Do you see a significant source of static damage bonus or +[W] that I missed? Don't just make claims without something to back it up. those numbers while conservative are pretty Reasonable they are averages ofc so that would explain why you "see" much higher non crits than 250-ish, you should absolutely see some much higher that's what an average implies after all. You might also have some more [W] or the ToEE set bonus etc.

I am not going to argue with "My Sorc feels more powerful than my Warlock" Spell damage especially is extremely straight forward you have all the mathematics available to you, base damage scaled by spell power % it couldn't be simpler to compare them. There is no need for subjective claims.

BTW I am not sure I'm supporting the nerf so much as pointing out how big a gap they opened up and how much SP casters are going to need to be brought up to be comparable considering they use a finite resource.

[Chai]

You are welcome to do the math yourself with more exhaustive numbers than mine as I said I was keeping it conservative (for all three examples) and I showed my math. Do you see a significant source of static damage bonus or +[W] that I missed? Don't just make claims without something to back it up. those numbers while conservative are pretty Reasonable they are averages ofc so that would explain why you "see" much higher non crits than 250-ish, you should absolutely see some much higher that's what an average implies after all. You might also have some more [W] or the ToEE set bonus etc.

I am not going to argue with "My Sorc feels more powerful than my Warlock" Spell damage especially is extremely straight forward you have all the mathematics available to you, base damage scaled by spell power % it couldn't be simpler to compare them. There is no need for subjective claims.

The barbarian vs paladin calc which was posted on these forums a couple months back shows both classes doing much bigger damage than you claim they do.

In other news, these nerf requests after every single new revamp or class release ARE subjective claims (which you claim to want none of). People did a lot of work over the years to make their characters powerful and now that they no longer have to do that, they blame it on the class, which is incorrect. Its the gear power creep and enhancement power creep which contributes the vast majority of the difference in power since the days when multiple past lives were far more desirable. Because current characters do not require the amount of grind and work to succeed, people are demanding nerfs down to the same level of power their old characters which they put tons of work into in the past.

Ill believe the person who plays a warlock and sorc through all levels, the vast majority of them who are telling us that warlocks are not powerful in EE like they are in heroics, before I believe an incomplete vacuum based number crunch. Barbarians and paladins scale better into epics than warlock does. This is in ALL the feedback threads discussing the class - all the way back to the first Lamannia preview.

When you guys get your much sought after nerfs, and the caster revamps are lackluster due to very loud and often repeated nerf requests disallowing any headroom to work with when that time comes, we can have this "I told you so" conversation at that point.

[Faltout]

The barbarian vs paladin calc which was posted on these forums a couple months back shows both classes doing much bigger damage than you claim they do.

I studied those calcs searching for ways to increase pally DPS in them. However, the tests cannot be trusted. All I saw was "Scenario 1" and "Scenario 2" but then again I didn't look at the functions behind the scenes.

However, I saw that exalted smites or cleaves were not used. And I can argue that the program calculating DPS needs to be much more complex than an excel sheet. Need to calculate movement speed, positioning, defences, activation times, cooldowns, etc. For example, to get my paladin DPS up to full potential I need about 30 seconds of preparation. scrolling tenser's, drinking haste, casting divine favor, activating boosts, positioning myself so the boss will not run away from me... And all this for 15-20 seconds of full DPS.

[Chai]

I studied those calcs searching for ways to increase pally DPS in them. However, the tests cannot be trusted. All I saw was "Scenario 1" and "Scenario 2" but then again I didn't look at the functions behind the scenes.

However, I saw that exalted smites or cleaves were not used. And I can argue that the program calculating DPS needs to be much more complex than an excel sheet. Need to calculate movement speed, positioning, defences, activation times, cooldowns, etc. For example, to get my paladin DPS up to full potential I need about 30 seconds of preparation. scrolling tenser's, drinking haste, casting divine favor, activating boosts, positioning myself so the boss will not run away from me... And all this for 15-20 seconds of full DPS.

Yep I agree. This is why playing the class to verify the calc is better than spreadsheet numbers alone. I see a lot of people saying warlocks are OP in heroics but not so much in epics. This is my observation as well.

[Rhysem]

To be honest, Warlock in ES aura/burst mode is the easy button atm.
It's arguable whether or not Warlocks (in ES) is OP as Barbs & Pallies but Warlock at level 24 will have access to 150 light spell power items from tier 2 thunderforged items. It's pretty much burst/burst to clean out at level EE quests.
Also, with combination of medium armor, shining through & displacement, you get a lot of time to heal yourself (espacially if you have some past lives that adds prr).

As many players have stated in this thread, perhaps not as OP as Barbs & Pallies but much easier to equip/build/play... the easy button.

I just ran through a barb life. It isn't like I had great gear -- actually my 2h melee gear is awful. It was probably less strong than my warlocks (though I did splurge on the warlocks to give the 25 the upgraded lantern and libram when he hit 26, and the barb wasn't even running thunderforged gear -- only one 20->28, no point in making it and having more btc inventory hork). The barb did had the advantage that mobs are walking healing pots. The warlock I have to stop doing damage to refresh my temp HP.

You are probably right it is a bit more low-geared friendly, but that's somewhat canonical to 3.5th - in games that have normal magic levels (ie: not dragonlance), if your gm is being gear stingy, the casters are going to have a better go of it than the melees. Seeing warlock do better with lesser gear maybe shouldn't be a surprise.

Having weak-gear-friendly classes is good if you want new players to still come in to the game.

[Rhysem]

Yep I agree. This is why playing the class to verify the calc is better than spreadsheet numbers alone. I see a lot of people saying warlocks are OP in heroics but not so much in epics. This is my observation as well.

If warlocks are OP vs bard/barb/pallie (which I don't think is true) in heroics, it isn't because of ES. ES 1 to 12 is junk. At 12 it might be okay, but in the meantime TS and SE have been crushing it for 10 levels. And they're not talking about touching that. Nor, you'll note, are they talking about fixing ES blowing from 1 to 11 (low aura dps + low aura tick rate = uhh hi I'm a gimpy melee in bad armor with no temp hp to speak of).

[Chai]

If warlocks are OP vs bard/barb/pallie (which I don't think is true) in heroics, it isn't because of ES. ES 1 to 12 is junk. At 12 it might be okay, but in the meantime TS and SE have been crushing it for 10 levels. And they're not talking about touching that. Nor, you'll note, are they talking about fixing ES blowing from 1 to 11 (low aura dps + low aura tick rate = uhh hi I'm a gimpy melee in bad armor with no temp hp to speak of).

I don't think they are OP versus those classes, but it can hold its own. I play the spell cleave the same way I play melee cleaves, and it works fine, but isn't OP. People claiming it is likely witnessed the barrage of heroic TR warlocks which happened over the past few weeks and got caught up in how fast they can kill stuff, forgetting the entire time that most other classes steamroll heroics just as quickly. Anyone claiming they are OP in epics (especially EE) needs to show us some videos, or it didn't happen.

Heck, artificers are more powerful in the 1-12 game. They have the same issue warlocks do regarding scaling into epics, albeit to a greater degree.

[LevelJ]

Please don't do this. Warlocks are indeed overpowered for heroics, but please don't kill Enlightened Spirit's high points for epics. I've been running through using these abilities for epic, and from what I have experienced, these abilities are right where they need to be for epic. Nerfing them in this way will render them ineffective.

Perhaps cutting Shinning Through's multiplier almost in half for heroics and upping it to 15x for epics would be a good solution. In my heroic questing experience that seemed like it would be about right.

Great idea:

The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%). OR scales 100% heroic and 150% epic
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x). OR 10x heroic and 15x epic

I wonder if something like this was even considered?

I agree on the suggestion for Eldritch Burst/Spirit Blast. Shinning Through is close to what I envisioned, but I still think Shinning Through is too high for heroic. My drow had about 20+ Con, so that would put it at 200 false life. My HP rarely dropped below 100%, and based on where it was at most of the time in false life (keep in mind this is a drow, which is the minimum for Con scores), 7x strikes me as a better multiplier for heroics. In my experience 15x for me was perfect for Epics though. Shinning Through forms a key part of my Warlock's defense, even though it runs out fairly quickly in large mobs on epic.

If you want to fix the 'overpowered' points of Warlock, starting with the bugs (like enervating shadow) would really help, both to avoid likely irreversible changes that people dislike, and to gauge where warlocks really sit with the currently WaI mechanics.

I really enjoy Warlock as it sits currently. As one of my all-time favorite classes in this game (besides Wizards), I would really like to see Warlock succeed as a class...in most ways it has, but it definitely needs adjustments for heroic levels in Enlightened Spirit. But what concerns me is that this announcement being pushed in quite late strongly implies that it is being done without the option for adequate (or any) feedback. I would greatly appreciate it if the devs would consider the feedback provided in this thread before going forward with this.


-Jayron

[Tilomere]

del

[Dalsheel]

Warlock burst attacks are just fine as they are now. There's no need to nerf them!
We've been spectators to the same play over and over and over again... Something new comes out, veteran players with multi-TR characters and years of game experience try it out and they perform "above average" because that's what you get with a mutli-TR character and years of DDO experience. Then new and/or ungeared and/or unskilled players jump on the forum crying that the new thing is OP and should be nerfed "because the Vets on their server are doing great with it"... and then the worst part: The Devs believe them!

Some people come here and say that spellpoints based nukers are behind compared to warlocks and they have the audacity to compare spells with 30d6 (avr. 105) base damage to a Warlock's 13d6 blast+10d4 pact (avr. 70.5). Do you people realize what the base damage difference is? I'll tell you... it's 50% base damage difference (48.94% to be exact).

With this mentality, I wonder, how long will it take for Wizard players to start complaining about Sorcs having more spell points and Artificers complaining about Rogues getting more skill points? Should Warlock players start asking for their version of Holy Sword, maybe? Do you see where this is going?

And don't start with nonsense like "spells cost sp" and things like that. Warlock burst attacks are enhancements, they are no different than the Paladin's cleaves. They cost Action Points, so NO, they are not free.

Stop being jealous of your friends who rolled a Warlock and they're having fun, people. It's easier and much more enjoyable if you roll one yourselves and experience this brand new super fun gameplay experiece that Warlock offers.

[TheWalruss]

Just want to draw devs' attention to this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...6-Warlock-OP-!

A lot of great suggestions there as well.

[Rhysem]

Our opinion probably doesn't matter anyway, because:

... and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time.

We're almost certainly wasting our breath, because it looks to me like the devs have already decided and will do what they want.