U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Portalcat]

That is the feedback in several threads from every player who runs any kind of caster who relies on DC checks.

My maxed PM cannot land a single Finger of Death on any mob even after (multiple rounds of) enervation + power drain running a necro DC of 77. A bard quotes an enchantment DC of 81 and can only briefly hold some types of mobs even after debuffs. A druid has stated that he can't get Earthquake to land with an 87(!) evocation DC.


For reference, see:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5652383
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5650495
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5649942
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5650214





These are characters running with min/max builds who cannot mathematically beat the saves of the U27 mobs. That is, they don't just fail some annoyingly large percentage of the time - they fail at or near 100% of the time. DC casting is dead if this doesn't change before U27 goes live.

We haven't had a public acknowledgement by any dev yet that this is viewed as a problem. It wasn't changed at all between the first two Lamannia builds even though it was clear in the feedback after the first one that this is an issue. It's not mentioned in the release notes or known issues. Given a long history of things on Lamannia generally going live as-is without such an acknowledgement, we're left to assume that this is intentional for some reason, which is odd given that there are a couple of incremental DC-related items in the new loot.


Is this getting discussed in the PC forums? Are there plans to change this in some way before it goes live? If it's an intentional part of the design going forward to end DC casting in end game, some forewarning would be appreciated so that we have time to TR into a barbarian or FoTM Shiradi caster to raid with our friends when U27 goes live.





U27 is a tale of two difficulties - any generic DPS build is finding this content trivial on EE, and anything that needs to beat saves is finding it mathematically impossible to do anything but pike.

[Holymunchkin]

That is the feedback in several threads from every player who runs any kind of caster who relies on DC checks.

My maxed PM cannot land a single Finger of Death on any mob even after (multiple rounds of) enervation + power drain running a necro DC of 77. A bard quotes an enchantment DC of 81 and can only briefly hold some types of mobs even after debuffs. A druid has stated that he can't get Earthquake to land with an 87(!) evocation DC.


For reference, see:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5652383
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5650495
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5649942
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5650214





These are characters running with min/max builds who cannot mathematically beat the saves of the U27 mobs. That is, they don't just fail some annoyingly large percentage of the time - they fail at or near 100% of the time. DC casting is dead if this doesn't change before U27 goes live.

We haven't had a public acknowledgement by any dev yet that this is viewed as a problem. It wasn't changed at all between the first two Lamannia builds even though it was clear in the feedback after the first one that this is an issue. It's not mentioned in the release notes or known issues. Given a long history of things on Lamannia generally going live as-is without such an acknowledgement, we're left to assume that this is intentional for some reason, which is odd given that there are a couple of incremental DC-related items in the new loot.


Is this getting discussed in the PC forums? Are there plans to change this in some way before it goes live? If it's an intentional part of the design going forward to end DC casting in end game, some forewarning would be appreciated so that we have time to TR into a barbarian or FoTM Shiradi caster to raid with our friends when U27 goes live.





U27 is a tale of two difficulties - any generic DPS build is finding this content trivial on EE, and anything that needs to beat saves is finding it mathematically impossible to do anything but pike.

bump,
is this being worked on?
Are DCs going the way of AC?

[Gralhota]

That is the feedback in several threads from every player who runs any kind of caster who relies on DC checks.

My maxed PM cannot land a single Finger of Death on any mob even after (multiple rounds of) enervation + power drain running a necro DC of 77. A bard quotes an enchantment DC of 81 and can only briefly hold some types of mobs even after debuffs. A druid has stated that he can't get Earthquake to land with an 87(!) evocation DC.


For reference, see:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5652383
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5650495
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5649942
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5650214





These are characters running with min/max builds who cannot mathematically beat the saves of the U27 mobs. That is, they don't just fail some annoyingly large percentage of the time - they fail at or near 100% of the time. DC casting is dead if this doesn't change before U27 goes live.

We haven't had a public acknowledgement by any dev yet that this is viewed as a problem. It wasn't changed at all between the first two Lamannia builds even though it was clear in the feedback after the first one that this is an issue. It's not mentioned in the release notes or known issues. Given a long history of things on Lamannia generally going live as-is without such an acknowledgement, we're left to assume that this is intentional for some reason, which is odd given that there are a couple of incremental DC-related items in the new loot.


Is this getting discussed in the PC forums? Are there plans to change this in some way before it goes live? If it's an intentional part of the design going forward to end DC casting in end game, some forewarning would be appreciated so that we have time to TR into a barbarian or FoTM Shiradi caster to raid with our friends when U27 goes live.





U27 is a tale of two difficulties - any generic DPS build is finding this content trivial on EE, and anything that needs to beat saves is finding it mathematically impossible to do anything but pike.

The turbine has no courage to eliminate wizards of the game ... then they've been doing this kind of thing every update , until the class serves only to completionist or the uninformed novices.

[Ape_Man]

Turbine needs to tells us if these insane saves are bugs or WAI.

Then we need to react appropriately.

[Drwaz99]

I don't think we'll get a straight answer. It'll be shifty and vague as normal. But once Warlocks were given crit damage boost (not just critical chance) I think that the writing is on the wall.

I have a strong gut feel that at least one developer is very against dc casting. But that's just my feeling based upon answers given during the last couple of updates in regards to saves and how things have played out.

Make it tough to achieve usable DC's -> get people to TR out of them -> revamp casters to add critical damage to "offset" the change away from saves. I know people will think I am crazy but let's see what the revamps of Wiz and sorc do. (If they ever get around to it some day.

[Thalone]

How come the DCs in those posts are up to 20 points off the max of the build I'm running? No wonder you're having issues.

Human, max INT, CHA. Rogue 2/Bard 5/Wizard 13. Important feats: Skill Focus: Perform, Disable Device, plus epic versions. Mechanic Improved Traps and whatever, Swashbuckler up to Coup de Grâce and whatever, fit in some Harper INT-to-hit, and don't forget Human: Skill Focus enhancements as well as Action Surge: INT, CHA. Wizard 13 buys you enough spell slots to fit in Finger of Death and Otto's Sphere of Dancing for your instakill and CC needs.

Do you really expect to hit the required DCs on EE with suboptimal builds? Honestly, sometimes you people on the forums astound me.

[PermaBanned]

I'm curious, what happens when these top builds step down to EH/EN? No, I'm not saying EH/EN exist "so all is well" I'm just curious about the performance requirements variance between the difficulties and have never had lama load right on my box.

Also, why would one update signal the sudden end of DC casting for end game? The pendulum swings, ya know? This wouldn't be the first "the sky is falling for DC casters" thread/claim - they've had rough spots just as Melee have - and they've always bounced back too...

[Ape_Man]

I'm curious, what happens when these top builds step down to EH/EN? No, I'm not saying EH/EN exist "so all is well" I'm just curious about the performance requirements variance between the difficulties and have never had lama load right on my box.

Also, why would one update signal the sudden end of DC casting for end game? The pendulum swings, ya know? This wouldn't be the first "the sky is falling for DC casters" thread/claim - they've had rough spots just as Melee have - and they've always bounced back too...

Simple people ask these kinds of questions because they don't understand how things work. let me explain things simply.

Here what will happen . .. Turbine will fix this eventually in the dumbest way possible: they will give us more DCs. This will break where DCs casters are currently balance. Turbine has done this EVERY SINGLE TIME.

EE GH had Saves too high, turbine fixed that with giving us 20 more DCs.

Is it good for the game for that to happen again?

[Silverleafeon]

I wonder, how to apply this to DC casting?

[Ape_Man]

I wonder, how to apply this to DC casting?

Kill it with fire.

[Portalcat]

Also, why would one update signal the sudden end of DC casting for end game? The pendulum swings, ya know? This wouldn't be the first "the sky is falling for DC casters" thread/claim - they've had rough spots just as Melee have - and they've always bounced back too...

If PMs can't hit Finger of Death even after negleveling an enemy a bunch, then that save is well over 20 points higher than the highest possible necro DC. A monk I was running the raid with tonight mentioned that he could sometimes hit stunning fist in U27 with his DC in the low 90s, which is to say Fort saves do indeed appear to be in the triple digits. For the pendulum to swing back, DCs would have to rise at least 20ish points - it's not really clear exactly how much because the saves are so high that we can't even figure out how high they are.




Realize that in content right now as of U26, DC casters land most of their spells. They need to be able to do so in order to be efficient, since these spells have high SP costs and long cooldowns. Certain high-fort mobs at endgame may require negleveling first to land these spells reliably (several updates ago, it used to be all mobs in the highest level content), but PMs do have access to enervation SLA to help achieve this efficiently.

The fact that we went from "able to kill hold most anything in ToEE" to "mathematically can't land spells on any mobs" means that the saving throws literally went up almost 20 points. That's not a pendulum against, but a rocket-propelled wrecking ball. It's sudden, it's dramatic, and it negates a ton of work to build these toons, because DC casters often are pidgeonholed into getting lots of specific rare loot and raid loot plus past lives in order to max out DCs.




I'm happy to have a conversation about how DC casting might need to be harder than it is right now, because the power creep thus far has definitely favored the players over the mobs over the past 2 years. However, at this current build of U27 there is no conversation to be had, because these builds aren't even viable at all.

[slarden]

DC casters SUCK at boss DPS. Now they will SUCK at trash too.

It's barbarians, shuri builds and paladins for all. Maybe a few shiradi casters that can jump around and be reasonably effective.

Tinfoil hat theory - it's intentional to sell LR +20s and otto's boxes.

If I am reading the release notes right enemies have +4 saves and +8 against enchantments due to environmental effects. That likely is a contributing factor.

[Portalcat]

If I am reading the release notes right enemies have +4 saves and +8 against enchantments due to environmental effects. That likely is a contributing factor.

It likely is.

Nonetheless, it only accounts for a fraction of the difference between the U27 quests and existing content.

[Avocado]

I ended up making a complete DC spec druid. I was able to get my effective EQ DC up to 90 and was able to knock everything down. With a solid fog clickie you could go up to 95 effective DC. This being said i had to sacrifice a great amount of dps for this dc. I am in the process of determining the min DC for knocking down enemies.

[slarden]

I ended up making a complete DC spec druid. I was able to get my effective EQ DC up to 90 and was able to knock everything down. With a solid fog clickie you could go up to 95 effective DC. This being said i had to sacrifice a great amount of dps for this dc. I am in the process of determining the min DC for knocking down enemies.

Good to know. I haven't had a chance to test on my druid yet, but I was thinking I would at least have a shot on my druid more than any other build.

Were you using the new items?

[Silverleafeon]

If PMs can't hit Finger of Death even after negleveling an enemy a bunch, then that save is well over 20 points higher than the highest possible necro DC.

Hmmm...

Epic Ward
Jump to: navigation, search

Epic enemies have massive amounts of experience against adventurers that form an Epic Ward against many attack types.....


Epic enemies recover from Negative levels faster than in non-epic quests 1 negative level every 3 seconds (versus 2 minutes on non-epic) DDO Forums....


Assuming you are using:

Energy Drain

Cooldown: 6 seconds (Clr/Fvs/Wiz)

The subject hit suffers 2d4 negative levels.


For every 5 negative levels you inflict, the mob will regain 2 negative levels, assuming perfect spellcasting.

Be sure and add that figure factor.

[PermaBanned]

Simple people ask these kinds of questions because they don't understand how things work. let me explain things simply.

Here what will happen . .. Turbine will fix this eventually in the dumbest way possible: they will give us more DCs. This will break where DCs casters are currently balance. Turbine has done this EVERY SINGLE TIME.

EE GH had Saves too high, turbine fixed that with giving us 20 more DCs.

Is it good for the game for that to happen again?

Naivety suits you well. Exactly what has Turbine done since then that leads you to believe this will be any different? As you said, Turbine will fix this like they did that - the pendulum will swing back. Good for the game? Nope. Is that likely to make a difference this time when it didn't last time? Hahahahahaha.... Nope.

[Avocado]

Good to know. I haven't had a chance to test on my druid yet, but I was thinking I would at least have a shot on my druid more than any other build.

Were you using the new items?

Just the new goggles for +2 wisdom over my live build.

[Ape_Man]

<bunch of stuff>

Your point being?

with a maxed DC you can rapid fire Enerevation SLA -> Energy Drain -> FoD well before that first neg level comes back (and that's abvious when it does as you can see the mobs HP change).


Seriously, do you guys not know how this works?

[Vargouille]

Some monster saves were lowered between the first and second Lamannia build. A review of U27 monster saves is ongoing.

If I am reading the release notes right enemies have +4 saves and +8 against enchantments due to environmental effects. That likely is a contributing factor.

We recently spent significant time verifying that saves were what we expected (though balancing is still happening, we wanted to check that nothing surprising was going on). The Shavarath Environmental Effect is the only meaningful difference between monster's Update 25* saves and Update 27 saves. We are otherwise using precisely the same formulas to determine saves that Update 25 used (based on the CR of the monster), though individual monsters (especially minibosses and bosses) may have increased or decreased statistics.

If you see an Update 27 monster with a CR rating that seems far too high (compared to Update 25 monsters), especially for non-boss monsters, feel free to call that out or submit a bug. Using the bug link in my signature is one way to make sure we see the issue - so far we've examined in detail every single Update 27 Lamannia bug submitted through this tool (though anything submitted very recently, such as the last 24 hours, might not have been seen yet).

Obviously, we don't expect the Shavarath Environment Effects (applied to both players and monsters) to continue for all packs into the future.


*Update 26 didn't have monsters or quests, and monster saving throws were unchanged between Update 25 and Update 26.