U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Ape_Man]

I am not looking to nerf mortal fear, I spent alot of raids to get those. If they are looking to add a 5th difficulty that is higher than EE, they should buff casters.

I'd rather not see casters buffed (DPS sure since it's pitiful, but regarding DCs), I'd rather see saves on monsters nerfed.

Buffing casters breaks them where they are currently balanced, does more harm than good.

[Steve_Howe]

I know it's off topic but if MF need a bit more of a nerf:

- Proc from 5% to 2%
- Cut hp of non bosses from 50% to 25%;
- Not working at all on orange named.

Nope. Don't you dare make my MANY runs for Phlogs all for naught.

[Steve_Howe]

Well, that is the million dollar question. What is an appropriate level of nerf that still makes mortal fear a valuable tier 3 (perhaps still the most valuable) but reduces or eliminates it being ridiculously overpowered?

Turbine has a history of:
--introducing (what are seemingly) obvious overpowered items (eg. original on crit nightmare as regular loot)
--not listening to feedback that makes it clear something is overpowered, making it real tough to nerf at a later date since peeps spent either considerable time or money making/acquiring it
--overnerfing anything once they finally do make some sort of change (eg nightmares, stat-damagers)

Also, are there any examples where turbine has said "Hey, this is obviously way overpowered. We are going to make a minor tweak and then re-evaluate. We will probably nerf further later but we want to assess this minor change first."

In the case of mortal fear it could be something like reduce proc rate to 3% with 40% hp drop and slight increase in "fear" damage, then make further tweaks if needed a couple months later.

NO!

Mortal Fear is NOT REALLY A PROBLEM. It works well against trash (who cares about trash?) and does a lot of damage against Orange-nameds on a 1 in 20 chance. If it takes you more than 20 tries to do a lot of damage (or even kill) an Orange-named, you really NEED Mortal Fear as it is now.

LEAVE IT ALONE!

[Rys]

NO!

Mortal Fear is NOT REALLY A PROBLEM. It works well against trash (who cares about trash?) and does a lot of damage against Orange-nameds on a 1 in 20 chance. If it takes you more than 20 tries to do a lot of damage (or even kill) an Orange-named, you really NEED Mortal Fear as it is now.

LEAVE IT ALONE!

Yes, it is. Multiple nerfs need to happen at this point as they are obviously not able to produce challenging content.

[slarden]

I'd rather not see casters buffed (DPS sure since it's pitiful, but regarding DCs), I'd rather see saves on monsters nerfed.

Buffing casters breaks them where they are currently balanced, does more harm than good.

I agree with you on DCs, but casters still need a buff in the form of more low cost sustainable dps or sp regen.

[Blackheartox]

Mf is op, and really beats almost all weaponry in almost every case vs trash, but thing is it is only good vs bosses on some specific builds.
On boss fights, i use temple set on most builds that are 1 weapon style and temple + thforged without mortal on 2 weapon style.
What could be made to totally invalidate thforged is simple, pump mythic bonus and enchantment on new shiney + add extanded crit range/multi.
Anyone would forget thforged exist the exact moment something like that is added to the game.

I would have nothing against mf nerf even if it meant that 200ish runs of wyrm would go to waste.
Its op, i understand it and it should be nerfed.
Same as holy sword or barb heal, nerf it all.

I tried to fight in temple ballance as well for saves reduction, we got miserly reduction of maybe 4-5 saves and bump of maybe 40 k hp on some mobs.
Even if sorc is my favorite class in this game, there is no point to play a non shiradi sorc now.
Its really dumb to me that the effort/time/tomes/money/past lifes/gear you need to collect to make a dc caster work is totally invalidated by the fact that saves need to be ballanced around junk like cdg or barb stunning blow dc, or similiar op junk.
Allowing casters to be able to demolish trash would not cause any ballance issues since melles ranged or even freaking tosser builds do it way better.
Its really dumb that a halfling throwing shurikens can clear and cc and dominate ee trash considerably faster then a human who spent his whole life toward the study of magic.

(also i find shiradi offense to dnd casting, something that consists of 1-2-3 rotation spam is .. no words beside i dont like it)

Easiest way is to tr to barb/palie/bard and soon ranger in current ddo and not bother til casting is "fixed" since it is broken now.
No boss efficient dps, no efficient dc casting, most spells useless.
Why cant we get a new 5 charge sp recharge item for example in new raid and not a useless ff clickie?
Heck make it somehow caster exclusive

[fmalfeas]

I look at it this way, there should be 4ish types of mobs, with the below save layout . . .

Standard: these are standard

"Archers": higher reflex, lower fort

"Casters": Lower fort, higher will

"Brutes: Higher fort, lower will

In my perfect world the devs would know what the DCs casters would have and adjust the content accordingly.

Just talking fort saves for a sec, a top necro DC is 77-78. In my opinion that should land 80% of the time on a "standard" mob. The "caster" or "archer" should fail more often, the "brute" like a Hezrou or ogre/troll should make the save more often.

I don't expect to finger and end-game brute without debuffing even on a maxed toon, but my will based attacks should land. I also should be able to land the kill on that brute if I spend a full energy drain as that's over 100 SP per kill.

As it is now all the saves are too high, nothing lands. Let's see what we have different in round 3.

I think a 77-78 should land about 90%. Why? Because you shouldn't be /so/ tied to 100% maximum just to be able to help a party in that level of content. If 77=90%, 78=95, 70=45%, requiring use of things like Neg levels, shaken, Arcane Spellsurge, or that T5 harper temp DC buff. And anything below 70 really becomes 'you're not powerful enough yet to have a chance in that level of content.'

However, D&D 3.5 (where such things are drawn from) comes with a few save profiles.

Commoner = Poor everything. It's ALL like a Fighters Will Save.
Wizard-type = Poor Fort, Poor Reflex, High Will
Cleric-type = High Fort, Poor Reflex, High Will
Fighter-type = High Fort, Poor Reflex, Poor Will
Rogue-type = Poor Fort, High Reflex, Poor Will
Ranger-type = High Fort, High Reflex, Poor Will
Monk-type = High Fort, High Reflex, High Will

Unfortunately for our DC casters in this pack, Fiends and Celestials possess the Monk-type category for racial base. Which means if they didn't take class levels, but instead have racial hitdice, then they have the same saves as a monk of level equal to their HD. Then you toss in any innate special defenses, spell buffs, environmental bonuses, and that Epic Resiliance thing, and it becomes 'caster stay home'.

Oh, and don't forget, folks, it's Shav! Which means /we/ are the ones subject to banishment, not them! So that's another thing casters can't try there (as if we would, with /that/ DC formula).

[Ape_Man]

. . .
Anyone would forget thforged exist the exact moment something like that is added to the game. . .

DO that and you might as well delete the pack from the store.

[Wizza]

NO!

Mortal Fear is NOT REALLY A PROBLEM. It works well against trash (who cares about trash?) and does a lot of damage against Orange-nameds on a 1 in 20 chance. If it takes you more than 20 tries to do a lot of damage (or even kill) an Orange-named, you really NEED Mortal Fear as it is now.

LEAVE IT ALONE!

Mortal Fear is one of the big problems of the current state of the game. It should be hit with the nerf bat.

[cave_diver]

NO!

Mortal Fear is NOT REALLY A PROBLEM. It works well against trash (who cares about trash?) and does a lot of damage against Orange-nameds on a 1 in 20 chance. If it takes you more than 20 tries to do a lot of damage (or even kill) an Orange-named, you really NEED Mortal Fear as it is now.

LEAVE IT ALONE!

So what I am reading between the lines is that you don't need mortal fear


Mortal fear: it needs a nerf.



Also in agreement with other people here: Nerf barb healing, paladin holy sword, mechanics, and bards. Nerf saves on mobs in game at the same time

[BankCoffer]

Yes, nerf mortal fear. So only dupers and the guys who play casters are unaffected. Great idea!

[Blackheartox]

DO that and you might as well delete the pack from the store.

Honestly, i expect that to happen with epic vale.
They need to make the crafing appealing and interesting..

Mf was a mistake since day1 and its still punishing us even nowadays.
You cannot really ballance gear/spells/anything when you have a weapon that is able to 1 shot enemies that are helpless if you have enough vs helpless damage boosts.

You can add orange named, punishes casters, you can add more bosses, punishes casters.
1 weapon ability that is causing most of our issues.

Maybe if they make enemies immune to mortal in "reaper difficulty" ?
That would be interesting solution

[Ape_Man]

So what I am reading between the lines is that you don't need mortal fear


Mortal fear: it needs a nerf.



Also in agreement with other people here: Nerf barb healing, paladin holy sword, mechanics, and bards. Nerf saves on mobs in game at the same time

I believe everything needs to be nerfed except drow melees . . .

(inside joke)

[BankCoffer]

Honestly, i expect that to happen with epic vale.
They need to make the crafing appealing and interesting..

Mf was a mistake since day1 and its still punishing us even nowadays.
You cannot really ballance gear/spells/anything when you have a weapon that is able to 1 shot enemies that are helpless if you have enough vs helpless damage boosts.

You can add orange named, punishes casters, you can add more bosses, punishes casters.
1 weapon ability that is causing most of our issues.

Maybe if they make enemies immune to mortal in "reaper difficulty" ?
That would be interesting solution

Just erase casting spells from ddo. Im fine with this.

[Ape_Man]

Mf was a mistake since day1 and its still punishing us even nowadays.
You cannot really ballance gear/spells/anything when you have a weapon that is able to 1 shot enemies that are helpless if you have enough vs helpless damage boosts.

So make it no longer multiply with helpless.

And yes, nerf all the other OP garbage we've been given in the class revamps. That stuff has caused more problems than it fixed.

[Chai]

I am not looking to nerf mortal fear, I spent alot of raids to get those. If they are looking to add a 5th difficulty that is higher than EE, they should buff casters.

We shouldn't be having to argue to keep DC casters viable every time new content is released. We had the same issue with TOEE on Lamannia. The devs need to understand the builds that aren't challenged are high PRR weapon-based builds - ranged and melee.

That's what happens when you add MMO style mitigation into a rule set based on a non MMO game, where most of the content was designed when that mechanic did not exist in the game. Those who can pile it up in spades trivialize the content and those who cannot become the bottom feeder classes. Its even more hilarious keeping in mind casters benefit more from past lives than melee, so generally more work is put into them to keep them viable.

[Vanhooger]

Maybe if they make enemies immune to mortal in "reaper difficulty" ?
That would be interesting solution

That would be a solution.

What I hate the most is that in DDO, we used to carry different weapon for different monster, dr break, alignment break ecc. Now every single player need to have mortal fear or you're out.

That's boring & ruin all the content to be trivial.

I wonder why the new raid is full of red named....they have to fix what they did with MF.

[FestusHood]

Honestly, i expect that to happen with epic vale.
They need to make the crafing appealing and interesting..

Mf was a mistake since day1 and its still punishing us even nowadays.
You cannot really ballance gear/spells/anything when you have a weapon that is able to 1 shot enemies that are helpless if you have enough vs helpless damage boosts.

You can add orange named, punishes casters, you can add more bosses, punishes casters.
1 weapon ability that is causing most of our issues.

Maybe if they make enemies immune to mortal in "reaper difficulty" ?
That would be interesting solution

I don't have a mortal fear weapon, but most things i read about it being overpowered are related to the fact that it's damage is increased by helpless state. Perhaps, if they can, they should start by removing that, since it seems to me that isn't how it should work anyway.

[macadope]

I don't know how many good ideas I've seen on the forums for ways to make DC casting relevant and not OP. Its a lot. Yet when we get this new content saves are all in the triple digits making it mathematically impossible to use just about anything DC related.

Devs, what is wrong with you. There's so many good ideas from forumites, just put in a small amount of effort and read. Your bosses will think you are awesome, you will get promoted, the game may get more popular and all this looks great on your resume so you can climb the corporate gaming ladder. If not for us DDO-lovers do it for selfish reasons!!!!

[Cetus]

I play my sorc pretty much as my main nowadays, and I can't really complain about my DC's in TOEE as I can about my DPS. The amount of spellpoints I have for the damage I do isn't enough given the amount of HP and resistances the bosses have.

Casters need more spell damage - spells like energy burst and dragon breath need their DC formula revised - even with a low 70's evo DC, those two spells are like mid 60's for me.

As far as DC's go, first of all - I don't think that a caster should easily lock down EE level 28 content...almost ever. To me, the only type that should be able to do that is a fully maxed out caster who gave up everything for their enchant DC. I'm not just talking triple completionist, I'm talking +7 tome, all the stats available through feats, destiny, trees, enhancements, gear, potions, etc. (Cue in revision for magister as a DC destiny here - but that's off topic). That guy should hit 90% of the mobs. Everyone else, some happy middle ground. Personally, I'm for stopping with the solo play mentality and returning the game back to being a group activity. If under *THESE* circumstances soloists find themselves succeeding, then that's truly an achievement - right now, it's practically expected.