U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Wizza]

Some monster saves were lowered between the first and second Lamannia build. A review of U27 monster saves is ongoing.



We recently spent significant time verifying that saves were what we expected (though balancing is still happening, we wanted to check that nothing surprising was going on). The Shavarath Environmental Effect is the only meaningful difference between monster's Update 25* saves and Update 27 saves. We are otherwise using precisely the same formulas to determine saves that Update 25 used (based on the CR of the monster), though individual monsters (especially minibosses and bosses) may have increased or decreased statistics.

If you see an Update 27 monster with a CR rating that seems far too high (compared to Update 25 monsters), especially for non-boss monsters, feel free to call that out or submit a bug. Using the bug link in my signature is one way to make sure we see the issue - so far we've examined in detail every single Update 27 Lamannia bug submitted through this tool (though anything submitted very recently, such as the last 24 hours, might not have been seen yet).

Obviously, we don't expect the Shavarath Environment Effects (applied to both players and monsters) to continue for all packs into the future.


*Update 26 didn't have monsters or quests, and monster saving throws were unchanged between Update 25 and Update 26.

The problem is, people still complain about Update 25's saves in ToEE. The fact that you use the same formulas AND they have the +4 from Shavarath enviromental effect and the +6 to Saves while full effect, pretty much kills any attempt to DC casting in this pack.

[Ape_Man]

Some monster saves were lowered between the first and second Lamannia build. A review of U27 monster saves is ongoing.



We recently spent significant time verifying that saves were what we expected (though balancing is still happening, we wanted to check that nothing surprising was going on). The Shavarath Environmental Effect is the only meaningful difference between monster's Update 25* saves and Update 27 saves. We are otherwise using precisely the same formulas to determine saves that Update 25 used (based on the CR of the monster), though individual monsters (especially minibosses and bosses) may have increased or decreased statistics.

If you see an Update 27 monster with a CR rating that seems far too high (compared to Update 25 monsters), especially for non-boss monsters, feel free to call that out or submit a bug. Using the bug link in my signature is one way to make sure we see the issue - so far we've examined in detail every single Update 27 Lamannia bug submitted through this tool (though anything submitted very recently, such as the last 24 hours, might not have been seen yet).

Obviously, we don't expect the Shavarath Environment Effects (applied to both players and monsters) to continue for all packs into the future.


*Update 26 didn't have monsters or quests, and monster saving throws were unchanged between Update 25 and Update 26.

What are your intentions? As the developer of this game how often do you feel my Finger on a triple-completionist caster should land in this pack?

Let's start with that and work backwards.

Also in the raid, why is everything Red or Orange?

[Abcchef]

Some monster saves were lowered between the first and second Lamannia build. A review of U27 monster saves is ongoing.



We recently spent significant time verifying that saves were what we expected (though balancing is still happening, we wanted to check that nothing surprising was going on). The Shavarath Environmental Effect is the only meaningful difference between monster's Update 25* saves and Update 27 saves. We are otherwise using precisely the same formulas to determine saves that Update 25 used (based on the CR of the monster), though individual monsters (especially minibosses and bosses) may have increased or decreased statistics.

If you see an Update 27 monster with a CR rating that seems far too high (compared to Update 25 monsters), especially for non-boss monsters, feel free to call that out or submit a bug. Using the bug link in my signature is one way to make sure we see the issue - so far we've examined in detail every single Update 27 Lamannia bug submitted through this tool (though anything submitted very recently, such as the last 24 hours, might not have been seen yet).

Obviously, we don't expect the Shavarath Environment Effects (applied to both players and monsters) to continue for all packs into the future.


*Update 26 didn't have monsters or quests, and monster saving throws were unchanged between Update 25 and Update 26.

I went on to lammania and pulled some gear I don't have (epic litany/deifeic diadem) and used store pots to achieve an 85 dc on my enchant spells. I cannot hold or dance the reavers and jariliths, even after debuffs.

I haven't completed ToEE on EE, but I've run around in there a bit in part 1 and could dance things ok with a 76.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

What are your intentions? As the developer of this game how often do you feel my Finger on a triple-completionist caster should land in this pack?

Let's start with that and work backwards.

Also in the raid, why is everything Red or Orange?

Off the top of my head (without looking to close at the numbers), about 15% more often than my first life Wizard.
Maybe add another 10% for the named gear you farmed.

(and another 10% for the min/max stacking you figured out that Turbine didn't plan for.)





But I realize the reality is that yours is probably way better than that compared to mine....

Which is why everything is Orange and Red.

[Vargouille]

Some monster saves were lowered between the first and second Lamannia build. A review of U27 monster saves is ongoing.



We recently spent significant time verifying that saves were what we expected (though balancing is still happening, we wanted to check that nothing surprising was going on). The Shavarath Environmental Effect is the only meaningful difference between monster's Update 25* saves and Update 27 saves. We are otherwise using precisely the same formulas to determine saves that Update 25 used (based on the CR of the monster), though individual monsters (especially minibosses and bosses) may have increased or decreased statistics.

If you see an Update 27 monster with a CR rating that seems far too high (compared to Update 25 monsters), especially for non-boss monsters, feel free to call that out or submit a bug. Using the bug link in my signature is one way to make sure we see the issue - so far we've examined in detail every single Update 27 Lamannia bug submitted through this tool (though anything submitted very recently, such as the last 24 hours, might not have been seen yet).

Obviously, we don't expect the Shavarath Environment Effects (applied to both players and monsters) to continue for all packs into the future.


*Update 26 didn't have monsters or quests, and monster saving throws were unchanged between Update 25 and Update 26.

I should correct myself, because there's two other significant things we're considering right now:

• Right now Update 27 monsters are benefiting from Epic Resilience, unlike Update 25. This is up for consideration to change or ignore for this update (some of this is pending time).
• Many monsters in Update 27 have Spell Resistance, which we also need to review and balance, and wasn't a signficant factor in Update 25.

The problem is, people still complain about Update 25's saves in ToEE.

Player feedback on Update 25 monster saves is not out of line with what we expect (nor is actual gameplay). As others noted in other threads, saving throws changed signficantly during Update 25 development and Lamannia review.

If we ever reach a point where no player complains about monsters being too powerful, then monsters are likely too weak. As an example to be seen in non-DC related areas for Update 27 feedback, players do reasonably point out when monsters are too weak or gameplay isn't challenging, yet we've also seen feedback asking for Update 27 to be made easier in some of the same areas. Monster balance and quest balance isn't a place where we reasonably expect to make all players happy all the time, as much as we would love to do that.

[fmalfeas]

The problem is this - that formula + the base template + the CR=HD thing. ToEE was mostly humanoids (class-based saves), Giants (racial + class), elementals (racial), undead (racial and class). Out of those, only elementals have unpleasant save profiles, but they come with an array of immunities that means very little DC casting is usually tried against them. They also (except for earth) tend to have lame Con score, making the one form of DC casting against them remain semi-viable.

On the other hand...Devils, Demons, Archons = Outsider Race (Outsider racial save profile + whatever class profile might be attached in certain circumstances). Outsiders have /monk saves/. Which means every save is a good save. There is no baseline 'weak save'. Devils, Demons, and Archons also tend to be well above average on Constitution, Wisdom, and Dexterity, meaning further potency to their saves. Then you toss in the Shav effects, and it gets worse.

If DC casters are expected to preface every single DC spell (including nukes) with Energy Drain at 50 sp a pop, we're gonna see the issues with red named DPS become 100% universal in EE, and as CRs in high level quests increase, start becoming widespread in EH as well.

[fmalfeas]

Off the top of my head (without looking to close at the numbers), about 15% more often than my first life Wizard.
Maybe add another 10% for the named gear you farmed.

(and another 10% for the min/max stacking you figured out that Turbine didn't plan for.)





But I realize the reality is that yours is probably way better than that compared to mine....

Which is why everything is Orange and Red.

45% more?! So, you basically don't feel that any DC Casters but maxed out completionist DC casters should be allowed in EE?

[Vanhooger]

I should correct myself, because there's two other significant things we're considering right now:

• Right now Update 27 monsters are benefiting from Epic Resilience, unlike Update 25. This is up for consideration to change or ignore for this update (some of this is pending time).
• Many monsters in Update 27 have Spell Resistance, which we also need to review and balance, and wasn't a signficant factor in Update 25.

Player feedback on Update 25 monster saves is not out of line with what we expect (nor is actual gameplay). As others noted in other threads, saving throws changed signficantly during Update 25 development and Lamannia review.

If we ever reach a point where no player complains about monsters being too powerful, then monsters are likely too weak. As an example to be seen in non-DC related areas for Update 27 feedback, players do reasonably point out when monsters are too weak or gameplay isn't challenging, yet we've also seen feedback asking for Update 27 to be made easier in some of the same areas. Monster balance and quest balance isn't a place where we reasonably expect to make all players happy all the time, as much as we would love to do that.

Well stepping in the new quest with all Pl in game & the best gear I could possibly have and unable to land a single spell just make me want to go away till you fix it.

Those quest are trivial on melee because of last year class pass.

So, in order to make those mob last longer you (resonably) do the easiest thing, give mob better save & more hp.

In short, DC caster were awesome on trash, now they can't even handle trash. Not to talk about red named.

We need a better mob AI instead of bloated hp&save.

Epic resilience, yeah couldn't wait for that ((

[Ape_Man]

If we ever reach a point where no player complains about monsters being too powerful, then monsters are likely too weak. As an example to be seen in non-DC related areas for Update 27 feedback, players do reasonably point out when monsters are too weak or gameplay isn't challenging, yet we've also seen feedback asking for Update 27 to be made easier in some of the same areas. Monster balance and quest balance isn't a place where we reasonably expect to make all players happy all the time, as much as we would love to do that.

Let me make this simple, no sane person who actually understands how the game mechanics work across multiple classes will disagree with me.

- Content is easy for toons where monster saves aren't a factor. My barbarian, pally, or ranger doesn't care about a monsters saves at all. Neither do pew-pews or warlocks. You could raise/lower their saves by 100 in either direction and it would make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to toons that find this stuff easy.

- Content is too rough for toons that attack monster saves. My maxed out DC caster wizard can't land spells at all and nuking with mobs with this much HP, since I can't make them helpless, isn't possibler either. Changing the saves on monsters for these types of toons is critical for them to go from useless ti at least viable.

When you say " people say the game is too easy" and use it as an excuse not to adjust saves you either don't understand the game mechanics or you're being lazy.

[Drwaz99]

nevermind...will be disregarded anyways.

[slarden]

I should correct myself, because there's two other significant things we're considering right now:

• Right now Update 27 monsters are benefiting from Epic Resilience, unlike Update 25. This is up for consideration to change or ignore for this update (some of this is pending time).
• Many monsters in Update 27 have Spell Resistance, which we also need to review and balance, and wasn't a signficant factor in Update 25.

Player feedback on Update 25 monster saves is not out of line with what we expect (nor is actual gameplay). As others noted in other threads, saving throws changed signficantly during Update 25 development and Lamannia review.

If we ever reach a point where no player complains about monsters being too powerful, then monsters are likely too weak. As an example to be seen in non-DC related areas for Update 27 feedback, players do reasonably point out when monsters are too weak or gameplay isn't challenging, yet we've also seen feedback asking for Update 27 to be made easier in some of the same areas. Monster balance and quest balance isn't a place where we reasonably expect to make all players happy all the time, as much as we would love to do that.

The problem is that PRR, MRR too important in the game and builds witih high PRR, MRR and a mortal fear weapon aren't going to be challenged by anything you do. Those things ALWAYS work in all content and scale well. DC casters are already questionable to play and if the DCs don't work they are completely useless (either half damage, no damage with evasion and/or utility spells don't work). Their DPS is at the bottom of the heap.

I understand the environmental effects is a shavarath thing and it was this way in the original shavarath also. I just hope the new nightmare mode doesn't end up being a hack and slash mode where dcs don't work and it's all about high prr/mrr melees.

[Wizza]

You obviously don't hate casters. You just randomly made every mob Orange and Red named in the new raid with no shrines.

As others noted in other threads, saving throws changed signficantly during Update 25 development and Lamannia review.

Sorry but this is not true and this is why I will not take part into the discussion anymore but be a mere spectator. As usual, do as you wish.

Hope you guys (the players, Ape etc etc) get better results with your feedback.

[Vanhooger]

The problem is that PRR, MRR too important in the game and builds witih high PRR, MRR and a mortal fear weapon aren't going to be challenged by anything you do. Those things ALWAYS work in all content and scale well. DC casters are already questionable to play and if the DCs don't work they are completely useless (either half damage, no damage with evasion and/or utility spells don't work). Their DPS is at the bottom of the heap.

I understand the environmental effects is a shavarath thing and it was this way in the original shavarath also. I just hope the new nightmare mode doesn't end up being a hack and slash mode where dcs don't work and it's all about high prr/mrr melees.

I'll say: Nerf mortal fear, it's game breaking.

[Rys]

I'll say: Nerf mortal fear, it's game breaking.

Mortal fear should have never hit live.

[Vanhooger]

You obviously don't hate casters. You just randomly made every mob Orange and Red named in the new raid with no shrines.



Sorry but this is not true and this is why I will not take part into the discussion anymore but be a mere spectator. As usual, do as you wish.

Hope you guys (the players, Ape etc etc) get better results with your feedback.

No shrine in raid again, well loool

[Vanhooger]

Mortal fear should have never hit live.

I know...but now it's there and need a huge nerf.

[Rys]

I know...but now it's there and need a huge nerf.

Yes, but so do the PRR and MRR.

[knockcocker]

Let me make this simple, no sane person who actually understands how the game mechanics work across multiple classes will disagree with me.

- Content is easy for toons where monster saves aren't a factor. My barbarian, pally, or ranger doesn't care about a monsters saves at all. Neither do pew-pews or warlocks. You could raise/lower their saves by 100 in either direction and it would make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to toons that find this stuff easy.

- Content is too rough for toons that attack monster saves. My maxed out DC caster wizard can't land spells at all and nuking with mobs with this much HP, since I can't make them helpless, isn't possibler either. Changing the saves on monsters for these types of toons is critical for them to go from useless ti at least viable.

When you say " people say the game is too easy" and use it as an excuse not to adjust saves you either don't understand the game mechanics or you're being lazy.

QFT.

Spell resistance and mega-saves. Who is going to bother with that?. As if arcane casters
needed any more reasons to go Shiradi...

[Vanhooger]

Yes, but so do the PRR and MRR.

Absolutely

[knockcocker]

Yes, but so do the PRR and MRR.

So, to be clear, your answer to the problem of saves being too high for DC
casters is to nerf PRR/MRR and to remove Mortal Fear from the game?