U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Rys]

I wish I had an answer.

Well I wish I had an answer that was positive.

I have posted my breakdown on the council boards, tweaked specifically for max DC's, minus cookies. It shows a Divine DC caster is useless against these kinds of saves. To add insult to injury a Divine Caster does not have the luxury Arcane Casters do with both more debuffs available and a wider variety of spells to choose from to allow targeting a "weak save" an option.

No.

Divine casters main bread and butter are Evocation spells, mostly on Fort saves. Which barely breaks 80. Having near 90 save trash mobs means I may as well not bother casting anything. Also, of note...to reach that number meant gimping my build into anemic red name DPS. All twists, all feats, etc, etc, for DC meant I would have a truly weak build for any boss.

Of course...hmm well I thought I had something positive to add here...perhaps I will think of it later...

I was wondering actually what is so hard about making the DCs balanced the very first time. I am not a coder so excuse me if there is more of it than that but is it really that difficult to take all caster classes, count their max DCs for each school, take in consideration some hard to get consumables and the fact that probably nobody will ever go full ******, Shavarath effect and that full hp buff and balance the saves accordingly around that.

Well fingers crossed so they get it right on live. Not crazy high and not way too low....

[Ape_Man]

No brain melees dont have any trade off, dont need grind best itens, dont need ´´tard`` past lifes.

Saves increase 20 pts ? What we got for help ? +1 Dc quality bonus ? Not fun !

We will need 20 more DCs for this to be right. It's Gianthold all over again.

[Ape_Man]

I was wondering actually what is so hard about making the DCs balanced the very first time.

It's not hard, I seriously don't think the guys programing this understand how this game works.

Well fingers crossed so they get it right on live. Not crazy high and not way too low....

I'll bet you a Dirty Kobold this is 31 flavors of broken when it goes live on Monday.

[noinfo]

Why does ANY monster in this game have a fort save 4-5 points higher than the maxed necro DC? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Some mobs I could live with but a Dretch? The lowest of the low that can't be instakilled?

I think we still struggling with what trash should be here.

[Ape_Man]

Some mobs I could live with but a Dretch? The lowest of the low that can't be instakilled?

I think we still struggling with what trash should be here.

I'm sorry, but make it the same as the top DC so it still can be killed with debuffing, it's insane that Enervation + Energy Drain + Finger is not enough on a maxed Pale master.

I'm of the mind a "tough" mobs should make it's save 80% of the time against the max DC with no debuffs, making the save 5 over max DC is insane.

[noinfo]

I'm sorry, but make it the same as the top DC so it still can be killed with debuffing, it's insane that Enervation + Energy Drain + Finger is not enough on a maxed Pale master.

I'm of the mind a "tough" mobs should make it's save 80% of the time against the max DC with no debuffs, making the save 5 over max DC is insane.

No I am actually agreeing with you here. Dretches are trash not high end mobs to be feared. That they can't be taken out by a Wiz with instakills is ridiculous.

[Alternative]

You people still waste time on this? The end of DC casting was neither recent nor sudden. The best CC and insta kill in one is a maul to the face, to be competitive in this state of the game the DC spells would have to be like the maul, no cooldown, no DC needed to land, and costing no sp, and little to no investments or build sacrifices. Anything less will keep the maul in the lead.

Hint: the maul is a metaphor

[Wipey]

You people still waste time on this?

I'd think plethora of magic options should be a big part of fantasy game like this. Character building options is a "big thing" that ddo has going for it, no ?

Hey it's perhaps futile endeavour by handful of die hard class fans with bigger picture in mind but I'd feel bad if I didn't at least say my 2 cents.
It's really complete opposite of what they should be doing in order to promote more classes / playstyles.

[sudzz]

You might save time. Getting you the saves for all monsters (on all difficulties) is an insane amount of data to communicate and make sure we're as accurate as possible while knowing the numbers might still change.

Here's two.

Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Dretch
Fortitude 89
Reflex 42
Will 27


Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Fire Reaver
Fort 80
Reflex 36
Will 74

Those numbers are not necessarily on current Lamannia. And, of course, still subject to change, so communicating this now is probably a terrible idea since it will be quoted for years as "what saves are" when in fact we might never go to live with these numbers. There are so many reasons to not state these things as How Things Are. That it might change and mislead all players forever is not doing the community a service (besides making me a liar, which I dislike immensely but is in fact secondary to misleading players).

/probablyneverdoingthatagainthankyouverymuch

It might be better advised to say that x mob has weak will saves versus strong fort or reflex saves, this keeps the numbers out of it as they can of course change depending on circumstances and presumably champions have higher saves versus normal mobs also? Likely those numbers above will haunt for the next several years as folk will blindly quote them as definitive no matter the disclaimer but good luck +5 on that one.

[Cetus]

Heres a EE TOEE solo on a *non-completionist* sorcerer, flawless without a single pot

Enjoy

[wiliamsane]

Here's two.

Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Dretch
Fortitude 89
Reflex 42
Will 27


Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Fire Reaver
Fort 80
Reflex 36
Will 74

Those numbers are not necessarily on current Lamannia. And, of course, still subject to change, so communicating this now is probably a terrible idea since it will be quoted for years as "what saves are" when in fact we might never go to live with these numbers. There are so many reasons to not state these things as How Things Are. That it might change and mislead all players forever is not doing the community a service (besides making me a liar, which I dislike immensely but is in fact secondary to misleading players).

/probablyneverdoingthatagainthankyouverymuch

Well .. i must thank you Varg for clarification .. i will not bother with DC casting anymore ..
I would like to hear how can completionist compete with this (or even worse - anyone else) .. I got 76 necro dc and 66 enchant dc as sun elf pale master (+6 tome , epic litany , yugo pot , store pot , completionist feat and diadem buff on ..it could have been bit higher with diferent twists and +3 insight - it was just quick build for pl) Even with new gloves and what +12 int you can get it to 80 necro and 70 enchant DC +- and guess what .. you find a Fire Reaver which have those saves plus 5to10 more .. oh yeah and d20 roll at top of that .. All these tryhard necromancers/enchanters and evokers(implosion) can now stick their fingers (of death) into their nose and while wailing like banshee they can go only to reroll into barb (or any rewamped class in that matter)

This will mess up even with those who still use stuning blow .. it was hard enought to get its dc to be at least a bit usable but now .. free feat!

I know these numbers are just on lamania , but be carefull with it .. it can reach far beyond DC casting .. tactic feats , rewamped warchanters , assasinate etc ..

edit: And i forgot group of monsters with mass FoM in ToEE .. it was really lovely and bit of a sad proof you really geting close to killing endgame dc casting

[Wizza]

Heres a EE TOEE solo on a *non-completionist* sorcerer, flawless without a single pot

Enjoy

You know that I have nothing against you but I'm not exactly sure how you can say saves are fine when, in your same video, you spam non-DC spells and you get Reflex save I'd say 60-70% of the times. Every single boss saves from your Lightning bolts (the only other spell you use with a DC with bosses) and your only Epic spells (Breath and Burst). It's not fine when you have a group of mobs and every single one of them saves (Gargoyles, Orcs) or when Random mobs have mass FoM. Most of the stuff that doesn't save are either CR 51 cultists or the Mephits in the Kelno fight. And even then, some CR 51 still saved from your spells. CR 51.

DC casting is not fine. The fact that you completed it flawless and no pots doesn't really prove anything, as I've also done it. The only way you (and me and whoever) completed this no pots it's because we can skip Goristro, Cube, Fire Temple and run with invisibility if we are lucky enough to not get any See Invisibility on the random mobs.

[slarden]

Heres a EE TOEE solo on a *non-completionist* sorcerer, flawless without a single pot

Enjoy

There is a big difference between TOEE and demon assault. TOEE part 1 isn't all that difficult.

Even so you basically completed by skipping a bunch of fights which is fine - but that is why casters run invis in the first place - not to try and zerg - it's needed for sp conservation.

[pjw]

Heres a EE TOEE solo on a *non-completionist* sorcerer, flawless without a single pot

Just an epic RoSS, Bauble, multiple iconic past lives, several heroic past lives...nothing too unusual.

And even with that, it's more than an entire SP bar for one mini-boss, and virtually all other enemies are skipped because you can't possibly hope to kill them via DC casting.

I think you proved the point.

Edit: for ppl who don't know what an ERoSS & baulble do, they are equivalent to a total of 4 pots per shrine.

[Ape_Man]

There is a big difference between TOEE and demon assault. TOEE part 1 isn't all that difficult.

By about an order of magnitude, EE ToEE is much easier than these quests.

[Ape_Man]

Just an epic RoSS, Bauble, multiple iconic past lives, several heroic past lives...nothing too unusual.

And even with that, it's more than an entire SP bar for one mini-boss, and virtually all other enemies are skipped because you can't possibly hope to kill them via DC casting.

I think you proved the point.

Wait . . I didn't watch the video, but did he invis run past everything to preserve SP and then say casters are fine?

[pjw]

Wait . . I didn't watch the video, but did he invis run past everything to preserve SP and then say casters are fine?

Pretty much. A few strategic fights, and bypassed as much as possible. The only bosses actually fought was the air priest (more than an SP bar due to overinflated EE HP and caster red named DPS issues) and the end bosses.

The latter took an entire SP bar + eRoSS + bauble and they did most of the damage using SLAs AFAICT.

The video demonstrates the failure of both DC casting AND red named DPS for casters, IMO. Though soloing EE is always an achievement worthy of comment, the single target DPS is low. Ofc the aoe dps is decent when targets are held (the only DC casting that seemed vaguely reliable)

[Ape_Man]

Ofc the aoe dps is decent when targets are held (the only DC casting that seemed vaguely reliable)

This is something I wish the Devs actually understood, caster DPS even against trash is only decent when the monsters are helpless.

[pjw]

This is something I wish the Devs actually understood, caster DPS even against trash is only decent when the monsters are helpless.

Yeah. We are now at the point with DCs that melees were at a few years ago with AC. It's entirely hit and miss, so to speak.

We may need a DC pass like the armor pass, but where, for example, instakill spells take somewhere between 0 and 100% of the enemy hit points based on the saving throw. Ditto hold: it would slow enemies by 0-100%. Not sure how charm would be handled - confusion perhaps.

[noinfo]

Heres a EE TOEE solo on a *non-completionist* sorcerer, flawless without a single pot

Enjoy

Great achievement.

But, I missed the necro magic, and other dc other than evocation, though I did only watch the first bit could be some enchant later with holds? on the mobs without fom.

Not to take away from the achievement at all, but just its relevance here.

I would like to see this done now on a non shiradi pure wiz.

*** Edit, a few holds during and even a sound burst twisted but was really direct damage with a few supplements. still great achievement.