U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Vanhooger]

/OFF topic

I did demon assault last night on my main. Is basically a vanguard fighter on light armor with bard level and swf str based, got really nice dps & good defense for a ligh armor.

180 prr / 24% dodge / displacment / ghostly / uncanny dodge / 135 AC

I died 2 times:

First was a thiefling mage champion,got hit from disintegrate 800.

Second was marilith champion chain attack, my fault.

I didn't find it as easy as other EE, was surprised, I liked it.

Saw normal hit from firereaver 200slash+300 evil couple of time.

Got to the end boss and they pawned me In 2 sec, lot of trash spamming fire damage & polar ray as well as boss casting something to prevent me doing anything for 6 sec.

I see CC could be useful here if it was actually working

[moo_cow]

You don't have to be in a mob's face to cast something once. It isnt the same as staying close to melee the champ, or red named ogre. They do hit for around 1800 before prr adjustments. After prr the hit is for around 800 on a toon with 150 prr. Champs dont go down in seconds just because youre a melee. Just like how you just said they dont go down in seconds on a MM spammer because resistances. They also have Bludgeon/slashing/piercing resistances. Maybe if you proc mortal fear and roll 19+ every hit. Stop with the exagerations. You cant seem to. Champ archers lol. Use jump and change your movement pattern. Champ archers also hurt melees, so

Come on, you really dont know this? Stop it five.

You have to be right in a mobs face for hellball to proc twice. It doesn't happen if you aren't.

So when you were talking about people taking 1800 damage from mobs you were talking about before prr.... which was certainly not said earlier. They also don't hit for 800 per hit. I could be wrong about that but I think the damage is more along the lines of 300-400.....

And yes they do go down in seconds on a melee. To say otherwise is just silly. Some mobs take a few more seconds than others of course, but come on.

Of course you can jump around when the archers are shooting. But they can still hit you. When they are 10 feet in front of you the arrows hit you pretty quickly....

[Ape_Man]

I see CC could be useful here if it was actually working

The Irony . . .

A DC 68 Danceball is a fancy lightshow because Turbine decided that brutes also need high will saves.

[Ape_Man]

1) buff underforming dc casters
2) nerf over-performing classes which are mostly melee and ranged
3) set this as the new world order where most casters are basically flavor builds that are useful in low level content and a few quests/raids

Regarding this new garba . . . I mean . .. "content" Turbine just needs to lower the monster saves (will and reflex, I think fort is now acceptable but YMMV), it maintains the status quo of casters being useful against trash and does change that they are lousy against red-names because they've been lousy against red names for years (this can be addressed later, preferably by buffing DOTs). The lowering of saves doesn't affect the currently OP classes at all.

It is that simple.

[Vargouille]

We're still looking at performance on Lamannia and making adjustments (for saves and other monster stats, etc.). We're currently expecting that "weak" saves for many monsters will drop lower, but the strongest saves for particular monster types are likely to stay close to where they are on the most recent (3rd) Lamannia. The difference between a strong and a weak save, on epic elite, is often more than 20. It can still vary somewhat from monster to monster who have similar save profiles but may have different ability scores, etc.

Almost every monster has at least one weak saving throw, and at least one strong saving throw. There are a few scattered monster types that get three "fairly strong" saves that are pretty good but not as strong as "strong" saves. Like players, Favored Souls and Monks don't have a truly weak save, but we only rarely make monsters like this. Full bosses are of course often unique and special and powerful snowflakes. Orange named "minibosses" are usually more like normal monsters, but the designers of particular quests sometimes customize them in particular ways.

[Vellrad]

We're still looking at performance on Lamannia and making adjustments (for saves and other monster stats, etc.). We're currently expecting that "weak" saves for many monsters will drop lower, but the strongest saves for particular monster types are likely to stay close to where they are on the most recent (3rd) Lamannia. The difference between a strong and a weak save, on epic elite, is often more than 20. It can still vary somewhat from monster to monster who have similar save profiles but may have different ability scores, etc.

Almost every monster has at least one weak saving throw, and at least one strong saving throw. There are a few scattered monster types that get three "fairly strong" saves that are pretty good but not as strong as "strong" saves. Like players, Favored Souls and Monks don't have a truly weak save, but we only rarely make monsters like this. Full bosses are of course often unique and special and powerful snowflakes. Orange named "minibosses" are usually more like normal monsters, but the designers of particular quests sometimes customize them in particular ways.

Slowing down neg levels and damaged attiributes recovery would help.

[Drwaz99]

We're still looking at performance on Lamannia and making adjustments (for saves and other monster stats, etc.). We're currently expecting that "weak" saves for many monsters will drop lower, but the strongest saves for particular monster types are likely to stay close to where they are on the most recent (3rd) Lamannia. The difference between a strong and a weak save, on epic elite, is often more than 20. It can still vary somewhat from monster to monster who have similar save profiles but may have different ability scores, etc.

Almost every monster has at least one weak saving throw, and at least one strong saving throw. There are a few scattered monster types that get three "fairly strong" saves that are pretty good but not as strong as "strong" saves. Like players, Favored Souls and Monks don't have a truly weak save, but we only rarely make monsters like this. Full bosses are of course often unique and special and powerful snowflakes. Orange named "minibosses" are usually more like normal monsters, but the designers of particular quests sometimes customize them in particular ways.

This is almost word-for-word what you said during this very conversation in regard to TOEE. And yet here we are again. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. You're very likely to have this pop up in every subsequent update unless you change the way you do things or give a complete balance pass to casters.

We get you're against DC casting Varg. and would much rather go to direct damage (you haven't said this directly so but your actions and the actions of the dev team say what you need not). This ever so slight decline in DC casting (some would argue it's not slight but rather a face slap) in each update is just going to alienate people this game cannot afford to alienate. Whether anyone will admit it, the games numbers are visibly dwindling and going around in circles like this is going to do nothing but increase that.

[Wizza]

This is almost word-for-word what you said during this very conversation in regard to TOEE. And yet here we are again. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. You're very likely to have this pop up in every subsequent update unless you change the way you do things or give a complete balance pass to casters.

I just thought the same thing

[Ape_Man]

We're still looking at performance on Lamannia and making adjustments (for saves and other monster stats, etc.). We're currently expecting that "weak" saves for many monsters will drop lower, but the strongest saves for particular monster types are likely to stay close to where they are on the most recent (3rd) Lamannia. The difference between a strong and a weak save, on epic elite, is often more than 20. It can still vary somewhat from monster to monster who have similar save profiles but may have different ability scores, etc.

Almost every monster has at least one weak saving throw, and at least one strong saving throw. There are a few scattered monster types that get three "fairly strong" saves that are pretty good but not as strong as "strong" saves. Like players, Favored Souls and Monks don't have a truly weak save, but we only rarely make monsters like this. Full bosses are of course often unique and special and powerful snowflakes. Orange named "minibosses" are usually more like normal monsters, but the designers of particular quests sometimes customize them in particular ways.

Bolded to highlight the madness.

So is the "weak" save a 60 and the "strong" an 80? Serious question because based on a 79 Necro and a 70 Enchant (Abishai cookies, who cares it's Lamania) that would explain what I was seeing.

[Rys]

We're still looking at performance on Lamannia and making adjustments (for saves and other monster stats, etc.). We're currently expecting that "weak" saves for many monsters will drop lower, but the strongest saves for particular monster types are likely to stay close to where they are on the most recent (3rd) Lamannia. The difference between a strong and a weak save, on epic elite, is often more than 20. It can still vary somewhat from monster to monster who have similar save profiles but may have different ability scores, etc.

Almost every monster has at least one weak saving throw, and at least one strong saving throw. There are a few scattered monster types that get three "fairly strong" saves that are pretty good but not as strong as "strong" saves. Like players, Favored Souls and Monks don't have a truly weak save, but we only rarely make monsters like this. Full bosses are of course often unique and special and powerful snowflakes. Orange named "minibosses" are usually more like normal monsters, but the designers of particular quests sometimes customize them in particular ways.

I like you are making more adjustments and really appreciate that but to be honest, arguing for every point of saves with you each update is getting really tiring.

Bolded to highlight the madness.

So is the "weak" save a 60 and the "strong" an 80? Serious question because based on a 79 Necro and a 70 Enchant (Abishai cookies, who cares it's Lamania) that would explain what I was seeing.

I don't think so. Seems like the weak save is 80 and strong save around 100 (see the reflex save on the archers in my video, spell with a fortitude save DC 84 worked on the archers ok). But again, I have tested only a couple of monsters so I could be wrong. Confirmation on this would be great.

[Vargouille]

This is almost word-for-word what you said during this very conversation in regard to TOEE. And yet here we are again. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. You're very likely to have this pop up in every subsequent update unless you change the way you do things or give a complete balance pass to casters.

The internal design process for monster statting and balancing was wildly different between Update 25 and Update 27. Being new and different may have been partially at fault for causing problems in workflow, and part of what we're looking at addressing in the future. Doing it the same way as before could not be a cause for monster balance problems in Update 27, but may be the solution.

Bolded to highlight the madness.

So is the "weak" save a 60 and the "strong" an 80? Serious question because based on a 79 Necro and a 70 Enchant (Abishai cookies, who cares it's Lamania) that would explain what I was seeing.

I'm confused. I don't understand the thrust of what you are getting at, if you are confused, or just asking me to repeat what was stated.

Monsters have strong and weak saves. Against a particular monster it will often be the case that targeting Fortitude with a stronger DC is going to fail where targeting Will with a weaker DC will succeed. That is the intended goal and design, and not at all new to DDO.

Which save is strong and weak varies on a per-monster-type basis. Whether a 79 Necro works or doesn't work on one monster type won't tell you whether or not it will work on a different kind of monster in the same quest. (For monsters with the same name, it should be the samish.)

[Rys]

I'm confused. I don't understand the thrust of what you are getting at, if you are confused, or just asking me to repeat what was stated.

Monsters have strong and weak saves. Against a particular monster it will often be the case that targeting Fortitude with a stronger DC is going to fail where targeting Will with a weaker DC will succeed. That is the intended goal and design, and not at all new to DDO.

Which save is strong and weak varies on a per-monster-type basis. Whether a 79 Necro works or doesn't work on one monster type won't tell you whether or not it will work on a different kind of monster in the same quest. (For monsters with the same name, it should be the samish.)

He wants to know the numbers. Me too.

[Ape_Man]

I don't think so. Seems like the weak save is 80 and strong save around 100 (see the reflex save on the archers in my video, spell with a fortitude save DC 84 worked on the archers ok). But again, I have tested only a couple of monsters so I could be wrong. Confirmation on this would be great.

Nah, I was fingering the Tieflings ever shot as a 79 DC and missing EVERYTHING else, including Circle of death which means they always made the DC79 Reflex save requirefed from the first part.

I was getting Dretches, which I imagine having a "weak" will so 60, a little less than half the time.

[Ape_Man]

He wants to know the numbers. Me too.

Yes, for the love of all that is un-holy we'd save SO MUCH TIME if you just told us what the saves were

[Rys]

Nah, I was fingering the Tieflings ever shot as a 79 DC and missing EVERYTHING else, including Circle of death which means they always made the DC79 Reflex save requirefed from the first part.

I was getting Dretches, which I imagine having a "weak" will so 60, a little less than half the time.

Fair enough.

Yes, for the love of all that is un-holy we'd save SO MUCH TIME if you just told us what the saves were

Seconded.

[Wizza]

Yes, for the love of all that is un-holy we'd save SO MUCH TIME if you just told us what the saves were

Yes

[Ape_Man]

Monsters have strong and weak saves. Against a particular monster it will often be the case that targeting Fortitude with a stronger DC is going to fail where targeting Will with a weaker DC will succeed. That is the intended goal and design, and not at all new to DDO.

But what appears to be new is we're unable to hit the weak save with with a secondary school, which will be about 10(?) DCs lower than a PM's primary school.

If the weak save is still too high to be hit by a secondary school then it's still too high.

Does that make sense?

[Vargouille]

Yes, for the love of all that is un-holy we'd save SO MUCH TIME if you just told us what the saves were

You might save time. Getting you the saves for all monsters (on all difficulties) is an insane amount of data to communicate and make sure we're as accurate as possible while knowing the numbers might still change.

Here's two.

Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Dretch
Fortitude 89
Reflex 42
Will 27


Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Fire Reaver
Fort 80
Reflex 36
Will 74

Those numbers are not necessarily on current Lamannia. And, of course, still subject to change, so communicating this now is probably a terrible idea since it will be quoted for years as "what saves are" when in fact we might never go to live with these numbers. There are so many reasons to not state these things as How Things Are. That it might change and mislead all players forever is not doing the community a service (besides making me a liar, which I dislike immensely but is in fact secondary to misleading players).

/probablyneverdoingthatagainthankyouverymuch

[Cetus]

You might save time. Getting you the saves for all monsters (on all difficulties) is an insane amount of data to communicate and make sure we're as accurate as possible while knowing the numbers might still change.

Here's two.

Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Dretch
Fortitude 89
Reflex 42
Will 27


Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Fire Reaver
Fort 80
Reflex 36
Will 74

Those numbers are not necessarily on current Lamannia. And, of course, still subject to change, so communicating this now is probably a terrible idea since it will be quoted for years as "what saves are" when in fact we might never go to live with these numbers. There are so many reasons to not state these things as How Things Are. That it might change and mislead all players forever is not doing the community a service (besides making me a liar, which I dislike immensely but is in fact secondary to misleading players).

/probablyneverdoingthatagainthankyouverymuch

Let me just say that no EE shavareth mob of any type should have a save in the 20's. Period. lol

[Wizza]

You might save time. Getting you the saves for all monsters (on all difficulties) is an insane amount of data to communicate and make sure we're as accurate as possible while knowing the numbers might still change.

Here's two.

Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Dretch
Fortitude 89
Reflex 42
Will 27


Demon Assault - Epic Elite - Shavarath Fire Reaver
Fort 80
Reflex 36
Will 74

Those numbers are not necessarily on current Lamannia. And, of course, still subject to change, so communicating this now is probably a terrible idea since it will be quoted for years as "what saves are" when in fact we might never go to live with these numbers. There are so many reasons to not state these things as How Things Are. That it might change and mislead all players forever is not doing the community a service (besides making me a liar, which I dislike immensely but is in fact secondary to misleading players).

/probablyneverdoingthatagainthankyouverymuch

Can I ask you one thing:

Are the saves of these mobs different from quests to quests? I'd like an aswer to this before I reply for real.