U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Rys]

The main benefit of cc is damage mitigation for the party and of course the hold bonus. mortal fear weapons benefit from the hold and so does the entire party.

Your point is well taken- cc is a basically a nitch to help players that aren't built to take ee damage.

This would be all fine and good, if any kind of cc would be needed. If everyone would have a certain role, it wouldn't be problem to go full ****** with EQ or full ****** with Enchant. E.g. DC Druid is (actually was) pretty fun in parties but take it somewhere alone and well... it will suck. Which would be again, fine by me if we wouldn't have a bunch of revamped overperforming classes. The game is just so so imbalanced right now that I don't see any reason to leave the saves that high to only make the gap even greater. If they are planning on some serious nerfs in the future, then sure, let the saves high, but I doubt they are.

[Wipey]

85 Enchant, too funny. You can't just build one trick pony in current game.

Anyway, allow me to demonstrate the efectiveness of divine caster in new stuff.
3 wizard, 3 cleric, 3 fvs and 3 sorc lives. Best in slot gear - with new gloves and goggles. 6 evo +2 evo augment, 5 conj + 2 conj augment.
Twisted 5 evo, 6 wisdom tome, wizard active past life. Yugo pots. Store pots. As much wisdom as possible without totally gimping spell power and single target damage.

Just lol, only thing that works is "party friendly" bb kiting orgy and Divine Wrath for half damage. Maybe I just have too high expectation ?

Fvs at least does some damage, but palemaster is completely ****ed. You can't hold anything and no spell efficient single target damage.

[cave_diver]

Just lol, only thing that works is "party friendly" bb kiting orgy and Divine Wrath for half damage. Maybe I just have too high expectation ?

Fvs at least does some damage, but palemaster is completely ****ed. You can't hold anything and no spell efficient single target damage.

Wow quite the DPS machine there Wipey think it took you 5 min to kill 1st set of 6 mobs :0

I think Turbine is implying that everyone should be a barbarbar rawr!

[Portalcat]

Fvs at least does some damage, but palemaster is completely ****ed. You can't hold anything and no spell efficient single target damage

I played around a bit with my PM yesterday. Necro now works reasonably against most things that aren't dretches. If I hypnotism then mass hold a group, I stop some of them, but there are always still a few things which save.

Once upon a time, that would have been a fine contribution to an EE group for someone that was taking 1/6 spots. It won't make or break a group though and you're sure not going to be completing this content on a PM without a reasonable one around you. It isn't enough now to inspire anyone who doesn't already have a PM to go through the effort of making one when melees can tank these mobs and slice through them in X seconds each.



U27 isn't pretty for DC casters generally. The incremental loot is worth seeking but is largely offset by the need to increase spell penetration. The raid is entirely orange and red names with no shrines - so I guess there's a lot of EN piking to do.

[moo_cow]

I do twist burst. It requires running by and pressing the key once. Nothing like having to plant yourself next to the ogre that swings for 1800(before prr). You do not have to be close to use hellball. You're actively a badsie if you do. Resistant to elements is cool and all, but I didnt even notice that is a buff because they die too fast to missiles followed by a hellball. /shrug

Displace, incorp, dodge, prr are on every build that is built correctly. That doesnt stop you from having to engage the champ because you have to melee. IDK, maybe your melee has 300prr, 25 dodge, 25 incopr. Hook it up with build pls?

You understand that hellball does 2x the damage when used in close range right? So if you want to use hellball without wasting spell points you get in a mobs face.

If you are a melee that actually does dps champs go down in seconds. Doesn't matter what you are fighting. They barely get 1 hit in. And no that 1 hit isn't 1800 damage. The 1 mob that this doesn't count for is the champ hezrous in ToEE end fight. They actually take more than 1 second to kill.

Champ archers do a **** ton of damage to casters, but I guess champs are still only there for melees according to you.

Also a hellball and a missile don't take out a champ with 14k hp when they are highly resistant to two of the elements of the hellball. Seriously.. who are you trying to fool.

[Ape_Man]

U27 isn't pretty for DC casters generally. The incremental loot is worth seeking but is largely offset by the need to increase spell penetration. The raid is entirely orange and red names with no shrines - so I guess there's a lot of EN piking to do.

Lower the reflex and will saves and it's fine.

[moo_cow]

Maybe the fact that one can trivially solo or group EEBB streak to 1-28 on such a build with 0 caster past lives while gathering 15 EE mobs up at a time to AoE down is an indication that existing mobs and environment don't play enough of a role to affect game play at all. Which is exactly what you want for future patches. Why not just re-skin kobolds, it will be easier and have the same effect as the prior 26 patches of mobs and environmental effects.

How many times do I have to explain this? Are you as stupid as your use of ad hominem attacks indicates?

Are you serious? You think that people who use dc's should be useless in shavarath. So evocation spells shouldn't work, enchant spell shouldn't work, necro shouldn't work, etc. So everyone should only spam scorching ray and polar ray. Your argument is stupid and would be dismissed by anyone. That makes any caster who casts spells aside from missile attacks completely and utterly worthless.

[Postumus]

But two wrongs don't make a right. The devs need to add (to the general game) some obstacle for weapon users that casters should be able to bypass easily, and vice-versa.

100% agree.

[Ape_Man]

100% agree.

That worked best when CC was needed, melees couldn't just surround themselves with EE mobs and cleave, and possible (Enchant saves were low enough that you didn't have to go full to land a hold spell).

[Postumus]

That worked best when CC was needed, melees couldn't just surround themselves with EE mobs and cleave, and possible (Enchant saves were low enough that you didn't have to go full-****** to land a hold spell).

I agree with you that melees need a serious nerf.

[nibel]

That worked best when CC was needed, melees couldn't just surround themselves with EE mobs and cleave, and possible (Enchant saves were low enough that you didn't have to go full-****** to land a hold spell).

Not only that, but the gap between your main school (the one you have all spell focus feats and gear) and your general DC was a lot smaller. IIRC, worst case scenario at all was a 5 DC gap (Spell Focus, Greater SF, +3 DC epic gear) because while past lives were a thing, they were nowhere as common as today, so "3 cleric, 3 sorc" for DC was a nightmarish thinking.

Nowadays, what is the gap between your main school and general spells? 10 points? 15? I have no idea.

[Cetus]

Too difficult? For whom tho?

The only people who find any kind of content any difficult are casters. Melees have the time of their lifes, in every single quest.

It's funny, Vargouille talks about difficulty and talks about saves. You know what happened when I went into ToEE on my blitzing Assassing last time? "Oh they have FoM..LOL I don't care, I'm blitzing".


Let's see:
Mobs with huge saves = Melees don't really care. Trip? Last time I saw a melee use trip was with Lay waste, an ability that you can spam as much as you want.
Red and Orange named = Melees can blitz on both and Mortal Fear on Orange named.
Huge HP pool trash mobs = Melees don't care, they don't have anything to stop them. Casters have an SP pool.
No shrines = Melees don't care, yes you lose some DPS by not having Infinite hast- oh sorry, you have got Draconic Reinvigoration now. A caster without SP is dead.

How is content difficult for melees? The truth is Melees are overpowered and casters have to, every single time an update comes out, argue for over 3-4 weeks for Developers to even change the slighty single point of DC.

Oh come on farwil, this is such as exaggeration I'm surprised you wrote this. I actually feel EQUALLY (yes, equally) effective on both my sorcerer and my barbarian in EE TOEE. When it comes to the hard hitting ogres and named guys, or hezrous at the end of part 2, I REALLY have to be careful stepping toe to toe with these guys on my barbarian. The game isn't that difficult, but there still exist situations where you can easily get pwned if you don't watch what you're doing.

You can't spam lay waste as much as you want. This is another exaggeration.

Draconic reinvigoration doesn't reset everything, and you won't use that all the time as you then lose mortal fear. You can't have both fartwil. Which one is it, draconic or mortal fear? There's also a cooldown on that, and you gotta proc it, which sometimes takes longer than preferred.

You know how you get around the "everyone has fom problem" twist soundburst - problem solved. That spell alone makes my sorc quite a bit more effective in TOEE.

[FestusHood]

I see people saying that in the latest build the saves are such that they can be reasonably effective with their main school, but their secondary schools are useless. What if a group of casters approached the problem, each of them having a different specialty? Yes, in an actual group.

People often talk about wanting the hardest content to require grouping, and even possibly to require specific role filling. Do people actually want that, or no?

Has anyone considered using cloudkill to debuff fort saves? I was surprised by being able to reduce groups of mobs in TOEE to helpless state using this, now that the stat damage ward has been relaxed.

As far as i know, Hypnotism debuff stacks with crushing despair. Level draining doesn't always have to be the go to method of reducing saves.

I agree that if people who are maxed out in their primary school can never land a spell, even with debuffing, that is a problem. Considering this is level 30 content, and particularly that it is Shavarath, I don't think dc casters should expect everything they throw, including off-off school spells with relatively low dc's, to land reliably.

They will probably have to begin adding substantial amounts of prr to mobs to curtail the 8k dps that forum reports say all endgame melees are capable of sustaining indefinitely.

[Ape_Man]

I see people saying that in the latest build the saves are such that they can be reasonably effective with their main school, but their secondary schools are useless. What if a group of casters approached the problem, each of them having a different specialty? Yes, in an actual group.

People often talk about wanting the hardest content to require grouping, and even possibly to require specific role filling. Do people actually want that, or no?

Has anyone considered using cloudkill to debuff fort saves? I was surprised by being able to reduce groups of mobs in TOEE to helpless state using this, now that the stat damage ward has been relaxed.

As far as i know, Hypnotism debuff stacks with crushing despair. Level draining doesn't always have to be the go to method of reducing saves.

I agree that if people who are maxed out in their primary school can never land a spell, even with debuffing, that is a problem. Considering this is level 30 content, and particularly that it is Shavarath, I don't think dc casters should expect everything they throw, including off-off school spells with relatively low dc's, to land reliably.

They will probably have to begin adding substantial amounts of prr to mobs to curtail the 8k dps that forum reports say all endgame melees are capable of sustaining indefinitely.

LOLz

[FestusHood]

LOLz

Go ahead and have your lol. Here is my lol. When players who repeatedly complain that the game is too easy then complain when they hit something that is a little too hard.

Before you say that it's only hard for casters, aren't you the necro = godmode guy? That's one of yours isn't it?

[Braegan]

I agree with you that melees need a serious nerf.

Devil Advocate kind of questioning...

And what happens if we nerf melee and CC/DC casters are still left impotent with the current saves model?

I don't see that working out well for anyone.

[BankCoffer]

You understand that hellball does 2x the damage when used in close range right? So if you want to use hellball without wasting spell points you get in a mobs face.

If you are a melee that actually does dps champs go down in seconds. Doesn't matter what you are fighting. They barely get 1 hit in. And no that 1 hit isn't 1800 damage. The 1 mob that this doesn't count for is the champ hezrous in ToEE end fight. They actually take more than 1 second to kill.

Champ archers do a **** ton of damage to casters, but I guess champs are still only there for melees according to you.

Also a hellball and a missile don't take out a champ with 14k hp when they are highly resistant to two of the elements of the hellball. Seriously.. who are you trying to fool.

You don't have to be in a mob's face to cast something once. It isnt the same as staying close to melee the champ, or red named ogre. They do hit for around 1800 before prr adjustments. After prr the hit is for around 800 on a toon with 150 prr. Champs dont go down in seconds just because youre a melee. Just like how you just said they dont go down in seconds on a MM spammer because resistances. They also have Bludgeon/slashing/piercing resistances. Maybe if you proc mortal fear and roll 19+ every hit. Stop with the exagerations. You cant seem to. Champ archers lol. Use jump and change your movement pattern. Champ archers also hurt melees, so

Come on, you really dont know this? Stop it five.

[Rys]

I actually feel EQUALLY (yes, equally) effective on both my sorcerer and my barbarian in EE TOEE.

That is awesome that you are a great sorc who can probably manage to complete EE ToEE on a barb and on a sorc in the same time and without drinking any pots but this is not just about sorcerers. It is about wizards, clerics, favored souls and druids as well. And I think those classes could use a hand right now. Of course I don't want to see them buffed to some ridiculous levels like some other classes are right now (in fact, I would rather see everything nerfed but whatever) but look how much effort and time it takes everytime to make developers to lower the saves to something 'acceptable' like 85.

That is of course certainly reachable but for what price. Or you would rather have DCs somewhere at 100 like originally? Are you surprised there are 5 wizards and 2 clerics left on Argo? I am not.

[slarden]

Oh come on farwil, this is such as exaggeration I'm surprised you wrote this. I actually feel EQUALLY (yes, equally) effective on both my sorcerer and my barbarian in EE TOEE. When it comes to the hard hitting ogres and named guys, or hezrous at the end of part 2, I REALLY have to be careful stepping toe to toe with these guys on my barbarian. The game isn't that difficult, but there still exist situations where you can easily get pwned if you don't watch what you're doing.

You can't spam lay waste as much as you want. This is another exaggeration.

Draconic reinvigoration doesn't reset everything, and you won't use that all the time as you then lose mortal fear. You can't have both fartwil. Which one is it, draconic or mortal fear? There's also a cooldown on that, and you gotta proc it, which sometimes takes longer than preferred.

You know how you get around the "everyone has fom problem" twist soundburst - problem solved. That spell alone makes my sorc quite a bit more effective in TOEE.

Sorcs are about as simple as it gets with "DC casting" - many dump dc for defenses - esp water and earth savants. They have the highest dps and the ability to bypass resistance and make enemies vulnerable is extremely beneficial. They have decent sp regeneration from their own tree and from draconic. The only real issue they face in any content is running out of sp.

Since you are used to making videos perhaps you can show us your sorc running through ee Shavarath so we can see how effective that sonic stun is and how it's better than a melee. No non-sustainable consumables, mana potions or store pots of course. We would like to learn from you and look forward to your video. Please show us your buff bar before you start.

I am certainly not implying you can't solo ee shavarath, you should be able to with a sorc - anyone can do that as long as they aren't operating on echoes of power. I just want to see how you are able to successfuly sonic stun enemies and keep up your sp - and of course be as effective as a melee in there.

Perhaps Demon Assault?

[slarden]

Devil Advocate kind of questioning...

And what happens if we nerf melee and CC/DC casters are still left impotent with the current saves model?

I don't see that working out well for anyone.

Turbine needs to decide whether to:

1) buff underforming dc casters
2) nerf over-performing classes which are mostly melee and ranged
3) set this as the new world order where most casters are basically flavor builds that are useful in low level content and a few quests/raids

I don't care what they do really - it's easy enough to switch to a melee. However after grinding for thunderforged/raid gear on a caster it's frustrating to switch builds because of FOTM musical chairs.

I am not saying I expect this to be resolved before U27 - I don't want to see the content delayed to address DC issues - but by the time we get to eVale I hope it's worked out.