U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Braegan]

Maybe the fact that one can trivially solo or group EEBB streak to 1-28 on such a build with 0 caster past lives while gathering 15 EE mobs up at a time to AoE down is an indication that existing mobs and environment don't play enough of a role to affect game play at all. Which is exactly what you want for future patches. Why not just re-skin kobolds, it will be easier and have the same effect as the prior 26 patches of mobs and environmental effects.

How many times do I have to explain this? Are you as stupid as your use of ad hominem attacks indicates?

Building a one trick pony build has never been a good idea, let alone a one trick pony build that works a small percentage of the time.

[Ape_Man]

/ON TOPIC

Tested stuff out. Fort saves seemed more reasonable, teiflings were dropping non-prepped and an Orthon would take the finger after an energy drain. This is of course on a maxed out completionist caster, not sure how mere mortals would fair.

Will and Reflex saves are still ridiculously high, forget masshold or danceball being reliably (Enchant DC was 68). Circle of Death is worthless since everything will make the Reflex save first.

Were reflex and will saves actually dropped?

If this is the last round of revision before this goes live TR into barbarians, it's the best option.

[Wipey]

Yes, if this is your last revision, I'd suggest getting prepared for big forum ****storm.
You are making new content almost impossible for classes / playstyle that need it the least and been behind for quite a long time.
Again, the content is too easy on any "dps" class.

Still can't land 68 Enchant or 77 Necro on wizzy. 73 ish Evo, 63 Conjuration on fvs is completely useless.
Even with more damage approach, everything is cut in half or evaded basically.

Will do stuff once for favour ( or rather get carried by friends ) and that's it. It won't get played on casters.
People that like to play just caster are out of luck I guess. gg

[Tebaco]

Yes, if this is your last revision, I'd suggest getting prepared for big forum ****storm.
You are making new content almost impossible for classes / playstyle that need it the least and been behind for quite a long time.
Again, the content is too easy on any "dps" class.

As i saw something from yesterdays youtube ddo stream video. I would now give more oil to fire..
Steelstar answered Cordovan (about 48 min. in video i think) that they dont plan doing any spells revisions (so making new spell like abilities, epic spells)..
So casters live with that poor dmg output or play other class or uninstall perhaps.

[Vanhooger]

If this is the last round of revision before this goes live TR into barbarians, it's the best option.

That is what I was thinking, but I found a faster way, I'll etr my dc warlock to goo pact since fiend is useless, DC too, to a shiradi version (even if I hate shiradi) just to acquire my loot and then go back to my dc caster.

It is probably the last revision since it's 23 today and they said this will go live this month, I bet on monday.

[Wizza]

/ON TOPIC

Tested stuff out. Fort saves seemed more reasonable, teiflings were dropping non-prepped and an Orthon would take the finger after an energy drain. This is of course on a maxed out completionist caster, not sure how mere mortals would fair.

Will and Reflex saves are still ridiculously high, forget masshold or danceball being reliably (Enchant DC was 68). Circle of Death is worthless since everything will make the Reflex save first.

Were reflex and will saves actually dropped?

If this is the last round of revision before this goes live TR into barbarians, it's the best option.

This is exactly what happened in ToEE

Will test them out as well later today when I'm home

[Abcchef]

Hopped on to lama with my spellsinger and did some quick testing on the first group of mobs in trials of the archons.

At 85 enchant dc with crushing despair on, everything that ran under my dance ball stayed there for at least a little bit except for the fire reavers.

I used song of capering to dance the fire reavers and spammed hold spells on them but never got a spell to land.


So it seems that at least on the jariliths, dretches, and the lone ice reaver the will saves went down.

And the be honest, I am fine with some mobs being resistant to specific schools as long as they are weak to another. (I went full ****** getting enchant high for testing so my other schools are too low to test effectively)

[Vanhooger]

Hopped on to lama with my spellsinger and did some quick testing on the first group of mobs in trials of the archons.

At 85 enchant dc with crushing despair on, everything that ran under my dance ball stayed there for at least a little bit except for the fire reavers.

I used song of capering to dance the fire reavers and spammed hold spells on them but never got a spell to land.


So it seems that at least on the jariliths, dretches, and the lone ice reaver the will saves went down.

And the be honest, I am fine with some mobs being resistant to specific schools as long as they are weak to another. (I went full ****** getting enchant high for testing so my other schools are too low to test effectively)

Well now if you tell me how to get a 85 enchant dc on my warlock...

[slarden]

Well now if you tell me how to get a 85 enchant dc on my warlock...

It sounds like mind fog will be a useful debuff for you if you can get to a 50% success chance. Basically if you are at 50% mind fog followed by either dancing ball or mass hold increases your chances to 75%. Mind Fog + Dancing Ball followed by a mass hold for mobs that make their saves brings you to 87.5% chance. 3 spells is kind of expensive, but 2 will likely handle 75% of the mobs. You have power word stun and otto's irresistable dance for for mobs that are threatening you (as long as spell resistance is reachable).

It sounds like sometime between now and the U27 release date is a good time to farm for the bauble

[Vanhooger]

It sounds like mind fog will be a useful debuff for you if you can get to a 50% success chance. Basically if you are at 50% mind fog followed by either dancing ball or mass hold increases your chances to 75%. Mind Fog + Dancing Ball followed by a mass hold for mobs that make their saves brings you to 87.5% chance. 3 spells is kind of expensive, but 2 will likely handle 75% of the mobs. You have power word stun and otto's irresistable dance for for mobs that are threatening you (as long as spell resistance is reachable).

It sounds like sometime between now and the U27 release date is a good time to farm for the bauble

It is very expensive & take too long land a debuff, hold and kill...and oh...need to bypass sr first. The barb will have the job done just using his 3 cleave attack before you do that.

As well mind fog does have will save so I don't see how can be useful.

I don't have dancing ball but i rely on soundburst & howl of terror so neither of those will work I presume.

[Rys]

Here are some Earthquake tests:

On the Dretches, Fleshrenders and Ice Flensers:
73 DC seemed to work around 40% of the time
80 DC seemed to work around 75% of the time
84 DC seemed to work around 95% of the time

On the archers, 84 DC (reflex) worked when they rolled 1.

I don't play DC casters anymore, but I think that the reasonable evocation DC for Druids (with gear, tomes, PLs, consumables) while still keeping some DPS is max around 75 which would mean around 50% chance for some mobs and no chance (beside 1s) for archers. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Ape_Man]

It sounds like mind fog will be a useful debuff for you if you can get to a 50% success chance. Basically if you are at 50% mind fog followed by either dancing ball or mass hold increases your chances to 75%. Mind Fog + Dancing Ball followed by a mass hold for mobs that make their saves brings you to 87.5% chance. 3 spells is kind of expensive, but 2 will likely handle 75% of the mobs. You have power word stun and otto's irresistable dance for for mobs that are threatening you (as long as spell resistance is reachable).

It sounds like sometime between now and the U27 release date is a good time to farm for the bauble

There's no point in bothering with crowd control, melees handle this stuff just fine without out. Seriosly, just TR into a barbarian and you won't care.

The point of enchant is Mass Hold + Nuke. Caster DPS is pure garbage right now, has been for a long time, but at least if the mobs were helpless and you had Sense Weakness twisted the nuking damage was tolerable.

Regarding the bard with 85 Enchanct DC that is impossible on a wizard or any other class.

[Ape_Man]

Here are some Earthquake tests:

On the Dretches, Fleshrenders and Ice Flensers:
73 DC seemed to work around 40% of the time
80 DC seemed to work around 75% of the time
84 DC seemed to work around 95% of the time

On the archers, 84 DC (reflex) worked when they rolled 1.

I don't play DC casters anymore, but I think that the reasonable evocation DC for Druids (with gear, tomes, PLs, consumables) while still keeping some DPS is max around 75 which would mean around 50% chance for some mobs and no chance (beside 1s) for archers. Correct me if I am wrong.

That you.

Devs can you please let us know if Reflex saves in the 80s is WAI or is this still bugged?

[slarden]

It is very expensive & take too long land a debuff, hold and kill...and oh...need to bypass sr first. The barb will have the job done just using his 3 cleave attack before you do that.

As well mind fog does have will save so I don't see how can be useful.

I don't have dancing ball but i rely on soundburst & howl of terror so neither of those will work I presume.

Yeah with saves that high the only option will be mind fog + dancing sphere and/or mass hold. As you said - it's rather costly.

[Wizza]

That you.

Devs can you please let us know if Reflex saves in the 80s is WAI or is this still bugged?

I just finished testing the saves as well. Pretty much what Rys and Ape said. At 80 DC, my spells worked around 80% of the time. And to get 80 DC on a Sorcerer I had to go pretty hard on Evocation and Charisma, absolutely gimping my Enchantment DC.

I'm in a situation where I went full ******** Evocation and my spells land only if I use Waves of Exhaustion + Solid Fog and maybe 1-2 stacks of Lethargy and I can't hold anything because I went full ****** Evocation so my Enchantment is absolutely horrible, which means I won't even have the +Helpless damage. We are in a situation where half of the classes are struggling and the other half can just roflstomp content.

Besides, also did some tests with holding. Forget it, it's just not happening. Forget about Mind Fog.

EDIT: Oh funny thing: Jariliths, when saving from Cold energy burst and Dragon Breathe, take no damage.

[slarden]

I just finished testing the saves as well. Pretty much what Rys and Ape said. At 80 DC, my spells worked around 80% of the time. And to get 80 DC on a Sorcerer I had to go pretty hard on Evocation and Charisma, absolutely gimping my Enchantment DC.

I'm in a situation where I went full ******** Evocation and my spells land only if I use Waves of Exhaustion + Solid Fog and maybe 1-2 stacks of Lethargy and I can't hold anything because I went full ****** Evocation so my Enchantment is absolutely horrible, which means I won't even have the +Helpless damage. We are in a situation where half of the classes are struggling and the other half can just roflstomp content.

Besides, also did some tests with holding. Forget it, it's just not happening. Forget about Mind Fog.

EDIT: Oh funny thing: Jariliths, when saving from Cold energy burst and Dragon Breathe, take no damage.

I would strongly consider twisting in evocation augmentation from magister if you can fit it in. Things like unmeta'd ice storm, frost lance and magic missle become cheap debuffs. Augmentation doesn't help many builds, but it helps most evocation builds. I suspect cold will be a common choice since Niac's biting cold and polar ray have no save. Still to get the low-cost SLAs to work debuffing is necessary. Solid fog + evocation augmentation is the easiest way.

To effectively use mind fog you need about a 75 enchantment DC. Once you drop below 50% the effectiveness of mind fog decreases significantly with each DC loss. It seems like saves in this 3rd lamannia build are about where they were in heroic shavarath when the level cap was 20.

With the current save requirements, certain builds will just not work while others will work with debuffing. It's about what i expected when Varg said saves would drop by 10 - except i was expecting save requirements to be around 80 rather than mid 80s. It's better.

[Ape_Man]

I would strongly consider twisting in evocation augmentation from magister if you can fit it in. Things like unmeta'd ice storm, frost lance and magic missle become cheap debuffs. Augmentation doesn't help many builds, but it helps most evocation builds. I suspect cold will be a common choice since Niac's biting cold and polar ray have no save. Still to get the low-cost SLAs to work debuffing is necessary. Solid fog + evocation augmentation is the easiest way.

To effectively use mind fog you need about a 75 enchantment DC. Once you drop below 50% the effectiveness of mind fog decreases significantly with each DC loss. It seems like saves in this 3rd lamannia build are about where they were in heroic shavarath when the level cap was 20.

With the current save requirements, certain builds will just not work while others will work with debuffing. It's about what i expected when Varg said saves would drop by 10 - except i was expecting save requirements to be around 80 rather than mid 80s. It's better.

And by the time you have anything dancing the two Mortal Fear melees in the party will have everything already dead.

Devs, what's the point of the saves being this high?

[slarden]

And by the time you have anything dancing the two Mortal Fear melees in the party will have everything already dead.

Devs, what's the point of the saves being this high?

The main benefit of cc is damage mitigation for the party and of course the hold bonus. mortal fear weapons benefit from the hold and so does the entire party.

Your point is well taken- cc is a basically a nitch to help players that aren't built to take ee damage.

[Vanhooger]

The main benefit of cc is damage mitigation for the party and of course the hold bonus. mortal fear weapons benefit from the hold and so does the entire party.

Your point is well taken- cc is a basically a nitch to help players that aren't built to take ee damage.

My point is, it shouldn't be like that.

[Ape_Man]

The main benefit of cc is damage mitigation for the party and of course the hold bonus. mortal fear weapons benefit from the hold and so does the entire party.

Your point is well taken- cc is a basically a nitch to help players that aren't built to take ee damage.

Damage mitigation ain't needed.

Holds are all but impossible to land and anything besides a bard that can't do much of anything else.

Playing a caster is pointless.