U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Tilomere]

del

[BankCoffer]

haha

Not sure how to take this? Are you laughing because you agree and find it funny? Or are you laughing because the only toon you play is something ranged for the past 2 years now, and don't know any better? Am confused

[Vanhooger]

Not sure how to take this? Are you laughing because you agree and find it funny? Or are you laughing because the only toon you play is something ranged for the past 2 years now, and don't know any better? Am confused

Do you really need to be rude with everyone?

[Rys]

Not sure how to take this? Are you laughing because you agree and find it funny? Or are you laughing because the only toon you play is something ranged for the past 2 years now, and don't know any better? Am confused

I don't know any better, sorry!

[BankCoffer]

I don't know any better, sorry!

It's okay!! I Figured. Saw your youtube page and knew it right away.

[BankCoffer]

Do you really need to be rude with everyone?

haha

[Rys]

The second Lamannia prop had relatively few changes to monster statting. Most of the changes have been put in since then. As previously noted, we're sorry those didn't all come sooner but no one should expect that the final balance will be the same as the second Lamania build.

That doesn't really solve the gap between casters, melees and ranged tho. Actually I am worried, it will only make it bigger. Anyways, looking forward to the changes.

It's okay!! I Figured. Saw your youtube page and knew it right away.

Thanks for the extra view!! Always appreciated.

[slarden]

I assume all I know about current Epic Elite is based on commentaries from friends, guildmates, and forum feedback. I don't like to play EE specifically because I don't think it is "challenging", just a inflated number on all mobs. I did ran endgame elite and epics back when cap was 20, but gave up on EE after Gianthold.

It also doesn't matter if you know all the workarounds to make your rogues to full damage on undeads. You are still using specific tactics and gear and stuff to bypass something that is not needed when you are fighting, let's say, orcs in ToEE. And you are investing on those bypasses specifically because you know you will need to use them if you fight a big skeleton boss.

I understand that casters in general lack sustained DPS, and mob HP inflation has led it to be a major problem. I agree that something should be done to fix that (either countering the HP inflation issue, or giving casters a DPS alternative). I just don't think Shavarath should be the content that care specifically to DC-based stuff. Since ToD was released, Shavarath was the place where DC-based tactics (spells, stuns, etc) was harder to land by design.

DC casting is suffering the same problems that AC run into once the number starts to go over the d20 range, and part of this number is based on gear or buffs (I remember my AC tank that were only hit on a 1, suddenly taking a lot of hits once he was raised, before he could reapply all the AC buffs). Spell DC need a pass of some sort to control the madness (and I don't think the same changes to AC should apply here), but IMO Shavarath is not the place to make that pass.

I don't have a problem if you want to theory-craft or deduce from what others tell you, but rogues (or any ranged/melee for that matter) are not having any trouble with DPS or resource constraints in the highest end content. Rogues might have problems with being a bit squishy, but dps is not a problem - I don't care what quest you put them in.

The devs are doing the right thing to make adjustments in Shavarath, but i agree an overall caster pass is needed. It's not ok to make saves unreachable in Shavarath and i am glad the devs understood the issue and addressed it.

[slarden]

That is what we're currently planning to ship for Update 27, and what has been seen on Lamannia twice. (There are a few monsters with higher than 45 Spell Resistance, and Lantern Archons in particular have rather exceptionally high spell resistance.)

Thank you for the response. It's fine if the Archons have unreachable spell resistance #s because of a specific monster trait.

The main thing was bringing player DC and monster saves closer together and you did that and it's highly appreciated.

I know a ranger pass is on the horizon, but perhaps an overall caster pass for all casting classes would be helpful - maybe about the time the level cap changes to 30.

[Grailhawk]

^^ Quite simply, that's pretty funny.

Glad I could help you understood how wrong you were.

[Mryal]

That is what we're currently planning to ship for Update 27, and what has been seen on Lamannia twice. (There are a few monsters with higher than 45 Spell Resistance, and Lantern Archons in particular have rather exceptionally high spell resistance.)

Personaly, i fail to see why spell resistance is still in game.All it does is create gap between spells that can effectively bypass it by not needing it (earthquake, web,etc) and spells that need to bother with it, requiring significant investment.Significant investment into something like spell resistance drives the character away from other areas that are "needed" now on the soloist world - like beign able to do damage, beign able to heal yourself, not beign one shot by mobs, etc.Lets face it specialized roles like DC casting arent really needed in the game anymore save for very few areas, wich is sad, but the truth is often sad :P

People choose do play with specialized casters etc for fun really.

A caster pass is needed? yea definetly.Specialy for Druid wich only has two clunky enhancement trees.But really, theres a much more simple solution, simply lower all mob saves and then increase the save roll for mobs from d20 to say, d30 or even d40.In my opinion a 1-20 just doesnt allow enough randomness for the insane values we are seeing atm.

[Tebaco]

A caster pass is needed? yea definetly.Specialy for Druid wich only has two clunky enhancement trees.But really, theres a much more simple solution, simply lower all mob saves and then increase the save roll for mobs from d20 to say, d30 or even d40.In my opinion a 1-20 just doesnt allow enough randomness for the insane values we are seeing atm.

How many usefull trees have sorc? One is for conjuration specced. One is for ek and defensive enhancements. So remains 3 evocation trees. Opposite element is always useless..So its not option.
So only possible combinations are:
fire + air. Or
fire + earth. Or
Air + watter. Or
watter + earth.
So more synergy comes only with:
fire + air OR
Air + watter .

But anyway second element demage is always very weak for epic quests. There are more talking about this, especially gear question. Casters need grind much more for sticks than meelers.
Evocation DC isnt high enough for beat archers type mobs without failing saves.

And make DC based sorc is tricky and its much weaker than wizards or other classes. For doing that toon you need do max cha (so +7 tome, grind mod gear, grind PL for take cha feats indsted of SP feats..)

...

solution shiridi?

[Ape_Man]

solution shiridi?

Pretty much this is your only option, or Master's Blitz as a melee.

[Tilomere]

del

[nibel]

I will be ok with that if we had pack were melee and ranged struggle like DC caster does in shav.

In theory, DR was supposed to fit this role. That is also one of the reasons why I don't like that the core 3 on AA give bows blunt and slash damage types.

In practice, DR values has been thoughtfully decreasing as our damage output is increasing. Again, back when the cap was 16, our melee damage was an order of magnitude or two lower than now, yet, Harry have DR 35 on elite. The devils on U27 pack should had DR 500 or so to match how absurd 35 DR was back then.

But two wrongs don't make a right. The devs need to add (to the general game) some obstacle for weapon users that casters should be able to bypass easily, and vice-versa.

I don't have a problem if you want to theory-craft or deduce from what others tell you, but rogues (or any ranged/melee for that matter) are not having any trouble with DPS or resource constraints in the highest end content.

I was talking about concept, not actual live mechanics. Sure, we have on live X and Y and Z that make rogues deal tons of damage to constructs. That is not the point I was making. I'm just saying that, based on our knowledge of Shavarath since the cap went up to 20, it was always supposed to be a harsh place for DC casters. So DC casters having a lot of problem landing spells on U27 quests, to me, looks like it is working as intended.

Does that means absolute total immunity? No. But if you are playing on the hardest difficulty with something that is not actually going full steam on DC casting, it is seriously not supposed to land anything. But then it raises the problem that DDO currently have a lot of small increments to spell DC that is almost impossible to keep them all going at once.

Examples: Assumption of tomes mean +3.5 DC. Lasting <stat> Potions are +1 DC. FvS aura is -2 saves (the same as +2 DC to all casters in group), Magister and DI have procs that reduces saves by 5. Swashbuckler and Warlocks have enhancements that reduces saves. AAs can stack SR reduction. Bards can use songs to add up to +2 DC. The list can go on and on, but we and Turbine are in a hard place to define what actually can be considered "average" about DC casting nowadays.

Exactly like it was with AC pre-MotU. At that time, people were "go full tank or don't bother with AC". The same is being true today about DC casting.

And that has nothing to do with Shavarath by itself. That, as a zone, I still believe that should be a hard place for DC casters.

[Grailhawk]

I don't want to fight kobolds in waterworks re-skinned as devils and demons in Shavarath. I fully expect mob characteristics and environmental effects to effect play. Otherwise where is the immersion? It is just more kobolds, this time with green skin and horns.

That has nothing to do with letting DC casting work or not.

[dunklezhan]

Shavarath, for all quests, is going to be different. Specifically: Monster and player characters no longer get +4 to all saving throws (Morale bonus type).




There are a lot of shades of grey here, and for good or ill it falls on us to figure out where to draw the lines. This is also part of the reason we really do want active discussions here, or good points for why it should lean one direction or another.

We're coming from this point of view: Hmm, Shavarath having +10 to monster saves compared to Temple of Elemental Evil seems really quite a lot too high. Pulling back player characters saves by 4 as part of the change also seems acceptable.

We're still leaving in +4 to Enchantment and Fear saving throws, which we feel is still meaningful and affects many casters still. Additionally, after review, we're leaving the Spell Resistance largely intact. We don't feel those values are too high, but they are extremely widespread in Shavarath, so non-damaging harmful spells are still going to have some issues to content with in general.

In short, we feel that Shavarath is going to retain some of the difficulty, lore, and feel without "going too far". Everyone is going to have their own opinion of what "going too far" is, and it's not really something we can expect everyone or even most players to completely agree on.

Thanks Varg, understood. (also, hadn't realised my post had sounded quite so snarky. Was meant to be much lighter in tone).

[moo_cow]

Quite simply you do not understand that DC casting is a a far wider category then fire spells. Saying DC casting should not work in an entire patch is like saying all elemental spells should not work in an entire patch. Which would be horrible design.

Cut him a bit of slack. He thinks a well performing caster is someone who spams prismatic spray till his enemy dies. Not even a joke, that is the sad part.

[moo_cow]

Champions are a direct response to melees. Casters and ranged toons never even have to get close to the fort bypassing, 1800 damage a swing doing, true seeing mob. Ever. I go in there on my pally and I get hit for 800 on a toon blitzing with 150prr. Know what happens when Warlocks, Shiradis, Throwers, and Mechs are used? Only the easiest time of your life. Ever.

Do you not carry energy burst, dragons breath, or hellball on your caster? I do on mine and that requires me to get close to mobs. Also some champs are so highly resistant to elements that they take about 200 damage per spell cast. There are also many champs immune to death spells. This actually hurts casters more than it hurts melees. If you play a proper melee you shred down champs in 1/2 a second anyway. If you have several champs on you ... well that is what displacement, incorporeal, dodge, and prr are for. If people get slammed by champs on melees they are playing wrong.

[BankCoffer]

Do you not carry energy burst, dragons breath, or hellball on your caster? I do on mine and that requires me to get close to mobs. Also some champs are so highly resistant to elements that they take about 200 damage per spell cast. There are also many champs immune to death spells. This actually hurts casters more than it hurts melees. If you play a proper melee you shred down champs in 1/2 a second anyway. If you have several champs on you ... well that is what displacement, incorporeal, dodge, and prr are for. If people get slammed by champs on melees they are playing wrong.

I do twist burst. It requires running by and pressing the key once. Nothing like having to plant yourself next to the ogre that swings for 1800(before prr). You do not have to be close to use hellball. You're actively a badsie if you do. Resistant to elements is cool and all, but I didnt even notice that is a buff because they die too fast to missiles followed by a hellball. /shrug

Displace, incorp, dodge, prr are on every build that is built correctly. That doesnt stop you from having to engage the champ because you have to melee. IDK, maybe your melee has 300prr, 25 dodge, 25 incopr. Hook it up with build pls?