U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[Vanhooger]

I just don't think Shavarath should be the content that care specifically to DC-based stuff. Since ToD was released, Shavarath was the place where DC-based tactics (spells, stuns, etc) was harder to land by design.

I will be ok with that if we had pack were melee and ranged struggle like DC caster does in shav.

I don't know a single quest were melee/ranged dps is not working well.

Maybe add to shav effect mob are immune to mortal fear, no? Looks fair to me.

[Vanhooger]

No that's not at all what he was saying in this post.
He actually said that they want the saves to be somewhat comparable to ToEE and iirc those were not all that high in general.
It's not like just lowering the saves to the point where everybody can hit their spells 95% of the time is going to make anything better.

No it isn't comparable, everything has SR & they have the +4 bonus, so if my spell land reliably on toee, they won't on shav.

As well shav +4 enchatment & +4 fear mean a +8 save against howl of terror?

[Rys]

In short, we feel that Shavarath is going to retain some of the difficulty, lore, and feel without "going too far". Everyone is going to have their own opinion of what "going too far" is, and it's not really something we can expect everyone or even most players to completely agree on.

Difficulty? That's quite relative notion, isn't it. Because those three quests, including the raid were walk in the parc on my archer even after the bump for the second Lamannia. Yet the DC casters have to feel pretty frustrated there. You still think that the difficulty comes with high saves, high hp and high hits. Fights that would make you use your head instead of autoattack and some twitch skills required for completion would offer way better 'difficulty'.

Plus I didn't think I would ever say this as a huge soloer, but the game really needs to get the content where the teamwork and certain roles are required, at least in raids. You got that pretty right in Deathwyrm in the time of release. But as it is now, it seems that every quest that is released is made for soloers. How can that challenge anyone? How that can challenge a full party? It's only and only about the DPS nowadays. You have the DPS? You roflstomp everything, you won DDO. Sad.

This discussion would get way more attention if you wouldn't have ruined any kind of need for cc casters by introducing insane powercreep and by overbuffing and homogenizing the classes in each update.

[davmuzl]

No it isn't comparable, everything has SR & they have the +4 bonus, so if my spell land reliably on toee, they won't on shav.

As well shav +4 enchatment & +4 fear mean a +8 save against howl of terror?

Well yes they have SR, but it's they same like it was at level cap 20. Devil and demon SR isn't so high that you have to invest a lot if you have the PLs. If you are playing a first lifer then yes this is a bigger problem but they don't have drow like SR.
+ to saves means you land your spells 20% less. It's quite a lot and I don't know how well your spells worked in ToEE. But They don't go down from "landing all the time" to "don't work at all"

Don't know if fear actually counts as an enchantment spell. Howl of terror certainly doesn't sound like it's an enchantment.

[Vanhooger]

Well yes they have SR, but it's they same like it was at level cap 20. Devil and demon SR isn't so high that you have to invest a lot if you have the PLs. If you are playing a first lifer then yes this is a bigger problem but they don't have drow like SR.
+ to saves means you land your spells 20% less. It's quite a lot and I don't know how well your spells worked in ToEE. But They don't go down from "landing all the time" to "don't work at all"

Don't know if fear actually counts as an enchantment spell. Howl of terror certainly doesn't sound like it's an enchantment.

I have no idea what feat to remove(since warlock is tight on feat) where to take AP off to fit some SR, so probably they force me to tr into a melee or ranged build get my loot, tr back to caster and never come back.

[Portalcat]

Additionally, after review, we're leaving the Spell Resistance largely intact. We don't feel those values are too high, but they are extremely widespread in Shavarath, so non-damaging harmful spells are still going to have some issues to content with in general.

This is a bit ambiguous, given that the numbers needed in the past two Lamannia builds were higher than the quoted 40-45 range that was intended.

That said, it's an issue of ~2 points of DC to beat a 50-55 SR versus a 40-45 SR mob on a maxed PM. That's not insignificant, but it's not what's going to make or break DC casters in this content either.

It is a substantially bigger deal though on any toon that isn't running around with 3x Wiz past lives and/or 3x FvS past lives though, if that figures into your reasoning at all at the EE level.

[fmalfeas]

Well yes they have SR, but it's they same like it was at level cap 20. Devil and demon SR isn't so high that you have to invest a lot if you have the PLs. If you are playing a first lifer then yes this is a bigger problem but they don't have drow like SR.
+ to saves means you land your spells 20% less. It's quite a lot and I don't know how well your spells worked in ToEE. But They don't go down from "landing all the time" to "don't work at all"

Don't know if fear actually counts as an enchantment spell. Howl of terror certainly doesn't sound like it's an enchantment.

Howl is pretty much the only Enchantment that has the Fear flag. Most Fear affects are Necro. In tabletop, there's a pile of Fear effects that are illusion as well.

On the upside, Fear effects should be able to have higher DCs than any other DC spell, thanks to Draconic Incarnation. If that's working.

[Cetus]

Shavarath, for all quests, is going to be different. Specifically: Monster and player characters no longer get +4 to all saving throws (Morale bonus type).




There are a lot of shades of grey here, and for good or ill it falls on us to figure out where to draw the lines. This is also part of the reason we really do want active discussions here, or good points for why it should lean one direction or another.

We're coming from this point of view: Hmm, Shavarath having +10 to monster saves compared to Temple of Elemental Evil seems really quite a lot too high. Pulling back player characters saves by 4 as part of the change also seems acceptable.

We're still leaving in +4 to Enchantment and Fear saving throws, which we feel is still meaningful and affects many casters still. Additionally, after review, we're leaving the Spell Resistance largely intact. We don't feel those values are too high, but they are extremely widespread in Shavarath, so non-damaging harmful spells are still going to have some issues to content with in general.

In short, we feel that Shavarath is going to retain some of the difficulty, lore, and feel without "going too far". Everyone is going to have their own opinion of what "going too far" is, and it's not really something we can expect everyone or even most players to completely agree on.

I prefer it on the side of "too difficult" rather than "too easy". With the latter, fun is definitely zapped out of it. And new end game raids should take weeks to beat, not hours.

[Wizza]

I prefer it on the side of "too difficult" rather than "too easy". With the latter, fun is definitely zapped out of it. And new end game raids should take weeks to beat, not hours.

Too difficult? For whom tho?

The only people who find any kind of content any difficult are casters. Melees have the time of their lifes, in every single quest.

It's funny, Vargouille talks about difficulty and talks about saves. You know what happened when I went into ToEE on my blitzing Assassing last time? "Oh they have FoM..LOL I don't care, I'm blitzing".


Let's see:
Mobs with huge saves = Melees don't really care. Trip? Last time I saw a melee use trip was with Lay waste, an ability that you can spam as much as you want.
Red and Orange named = Melees can blitz on both and Mortal Fear on Orange named.
Huge HP pool trash mobs = Melees don't care, they don't have anything to stop them. Casters have an SP pool.
No shrines = Melees don't care, yes you lose some DPS by not having Infinite hast- oh sorry, you have got Draconic Reinvigoration now. A caster without SP is dead.

How is content difficult for melees? The truth is Melees are overpowered and casters have to, every single time an update comes out, argue for over 3-4 weeks for Developers to even change the slighty single point of DC.

[Tebaco]

I have no idea what feat to remove(since warlock is tight on feat) where to take AP off to fit some SR, so probably they force me to tr into a melee or ranged build get my loot, tr back to caster and never come back.

This sounds like powergaming. I think majority of players dont want waste time with TRing just for this reason. What community needs is challanging but playable group game at cap. This seems like major problem of current game. If you set up your toon well, there is no reason why you should be forced to by carryed in several quests with your meeleer game mates.

I have plenty of ideas what should be done, but... It seems like wasting time posting it.

Anyway I have a question. How is this game beeing tested? Does anyone know it? Because as i see forum, it seems that its beeing tested mainly by community. Testing is probably very expensive process with all options that game offers. So it must be frustrating for devs listening many opposite ideas from community and make correct decisions.
In some companies is stuff prepared by direction of one man (ie Apple & Steve). That worked impressively well. I hope that Turbine have such genius brain too.

[BankCoffer]

Let's see:
Mobs with huge saves = Melees don't really care. Trip? Lol please, last time I saw a melee use trip was with Lay waste, an ability that you can spam as much as you want.
Red and Orange named = Melees can blitz on both and Mortal Fear on Orange named.
Huge HP pool trash mobs = Melees don't care, they don't have anything to stop them. Casters have an SP pool.
No shrines = Melees don't care, yes you lose some DPS by not having Infinite hast- oh sorry, you have got Draconic Reinvigoration now. A caster without SP is dead.

How is content difficult for melees? The truth is Melees are overpowered and casters have to, every single time an update comes out, argue for over 3-4 weeks for Developers to even change the slighty single point of DC.

Champions are a direct response to melees. Casters and ranged toons never even have to get close to the fort bypassing, 1800 damage a swing doing, true seeing mob. Ever. I go in there on my pally and I get hit for 800 on a toon blitzing with 150prr. Know what happens when Warlocks, Shiradis, Throwers, and Mechs are used? Only the easiest time of your life. Ever.

[Wizza]

Champions are a direct response to melees. Casters and ranged toons never even have to get close to the fort bypassing, 1800 damage a swing doing, true seeing mob. Ever. I go in there on my pally and I get hit for 800 on a toon blitzing with 150prr. Know what happens when Warlocks, Shiradis, Throwers, and Mechs are used? Only the easiest time of your life. Ever.

Champions are not a direct response to melees. Champions are a band-aid for the powercreep, an awful and very badly designed band-aid if you ask me. Very rarely they have fort bypass and in any case you can two shot them on your blitzing Pally.

Also, casters face those problems with every single mob of any quest, in every situation. You are saying Melees face a challenge just with champions? Nice balance.

[Vellrad]

Champions are a direct response to melees. Casters and ranged toons never even have to get close to the fort bypassing, 1800 damage a swing doing, true seeing mob. Ever. I go in there on my pally and I get hit for 800 on a toon blitzing with 150prr. Know what happens when Warlocks, Shiradis, Throwers, and Mechs are used? Only the easiest time of your life. Ever.

Its funny that those champions that are 1 shotting everyone exists only on forums not in game.

[BankCoffer]

Champions are not a direct response to melees. Champions are a band-aid for the powercreep, an awful and very badly designed band-aid if you ask me. Very rarely they have fort bypass and in any case you can two shot them on your blitzing Pally.

Also, casters face those problems with every single mob of any quest, in every situation. You are saying Melees face a challenge just with champions? Nice balance.

Of course champs are direct response to melee. The ogre champs in TOEE, the red named ogre rares. All swing for 1800~ before prr. You're not two shot-ing them. Casters and ranged never get close to them. Ever. I dread taking my pally in there when those things are spawned. My shiradi? LOL@YouYoloGG

[Wizza]

Of course champs are direct response to melee. The ogre champs in TOEE, the red named ogre rares. All swing for 1800~ before prr. You're not two shotingt themm. Casters and ranged never get close to them. Ever. I dread taking ym pally in there when those things are spawned. My shiradi? LOL@YouYoloGG

The famous red named champions hitting for 1800

[BankCoffer]

Its funny that those champions that are 1 shotting everyone exists only on forums not in game.

maybe you should play the game more? IDK what to tell you. I ransack it weekly on my toons. I see them all the time. Perhaps you should, you know, actually play the content?

[Ape_Man]

Too difficult? For whom tho?

The only people who find any kind of content any difficult are casters. Melees have the time of their lifes, in every single quest.
.

It is baffling how people cannot understand this.

[Rys]

Of course champs are direct response to melee.

haha

[BankCoffer]

The famous red named champions hitting for 1800

Do you even English, bro?

[Vargouille]

So is this the 40-45 mentioned previously or was the 40-45 #s mentioned earlier something you were just considering?

That is what we're currently planning to ship for Update 27, and what has been seen on Lamannia twice. (There are a few monsters with higher than 45 Spell Resistance, and Lantern Archons in particular have rather exceptionally high spell resistance.)

This is a bit ambiguous, given that the numbers needed in the past two Lamannia builds were higher than the quoted 40-45 range that was intended.

That said, it's an issue of ~2 points of DC to beat a 50-55 SR versus a 40-45 SR mob on a maxed PM. That's not insignificant, but it's not what's going to make or break DC casters in this content either.

Apologies: We have not seen any other reports of monsters having 55 Spell Resistance (or above 50), and have not seen that ourselves. We're taking another look, however. But we can't change something that isn't there, as far as we can tell.

Edit: We're finding some inconsistencies with what we thought was going on, so thanks for pointing this out.

No it isn't comparable, everything has SR & they have the +4 bonus, so if my spell land reliably on toee, they won't on shav.

Worth repeating, which perhaps you are unaware of:

Tentatively, amongst other balance changes, we're planning to:

1. Remove the general +4 bonus to saving throws from the Shavarath Environmental Effect (affecting all player characters and monsters in Shavarath).
2. Remove Epic Resilience from Update 27 quests. We still want to revisit this in a more thorough fashion (ideally along with some other factors, such as Epic Ward and related things), but this should make a big difference for Update 27.

This reduces "healthy" monster saves by -10, compared to the most recent Lamannia.

Difficulty? That's quite relative notion, isn't it. Because those three quests, including the raid were walk in the parc on my archer even after the bump for the second Lamannia. Yet the DC casters have to feel pretty frustrated there.

The second Lamannia prop had relatively few changes to monster statting. Most of the changes have been put in since then. As previously noted, we're sorry those didn't all come sooner but no one should expect that the final balance will be the same as the second Lamania build.