U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[slarden]

I don't like the idea of getting rid of the Shavarath Effect.
The whole idea of going to another plane is for things to be different there.

This is one pack (or two).
there will be plenty of others where the DC casters can shine.


If anything, you should find a way to add to the Shavarath Effect to make it hard for other players too.

We would need to see major nerfage to paladins, barbarians, bards, and melees/ranged toons is general if this approach is taken.


Even in content where DC casting works it's far more effective to come with a great axe and plow through the dungeon.

I play a wide variety of builds so I am not looking to see one build shine over another, but if people think DC casters should be ineffective, we should put all builds on an even playing field. I would like to see DC casting work, but if that is not in the cards perhaps nerf the other builds so the challenge level is equal for all builds.

[Vargouille]

Of note: Monster saving throws are inherently important to get right. This is something that affects nearly every class directly or indirectly. If your character does anything with a saving throw, this matters (whether that's Stunning Blow, Energy Burst, Lightning Bolt, or Finger of Death).

Despite the original thread title, DC Casting is not The One and Only Reason why we care about getting monster saving throws right.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of the Shavarath Effect.
The whole idea of going to another plane is for things to be different there.

Agreed, and I'd love to add more environmental effects to DDO to shake up gameplay and make it a bit different here and there. (Speaking only for myself, I would personally lean towards crazier Xoriat-like effects if I were picking a game for only me to play! Luckily for many players, there are others to restrain me, including myself since others play DDO.)

We aren't removing the Shavarath Environment. We are altering it and making it less severe.

[Angelic-council]

People usually can't achieve Necro DC 77 or evocation DC 82 without having some sort of potions and clicky, temporal effect going on. It's very situational and it can't be maintained 24/7. Some casters can't mass debuff, like FvS or Clerics. I don't think people would wait for anyone to debuff anyways. That's why instant massive damage wins in DDO. So.. what is the truly acceptable DC on EE. Should it be based on the current max achievable DC pre buff?, or all the buffs count too.

Because currently, DC casters are in a tight position. Some classes, like divine or warlock can do both, DC and damage, so it's easier for them than a wizard for example. I think turbine just have to set a goal.. that ok, in this quest monsters will have __ DC, because people can achieve this much. But what it really should be?

[nibel]

Are you running end game content or Heroic TRing?

Doesn't matter. I wasn't complaining. I was throwing a comparison that is implied because of those mob types' immunity to sneak attack. Rogues are supposed to have to work harder to dish damage to undeads just like paladins are supposed to work harder to dish damage to non-evil mobs.

So, under assumptions like those, I don't see anything wrong with saves in Shavarath being a native no-no, where you are supposed to deal with them via no-DC abilities and direct damage.

Now, on the other hand, do casters have a problem with direct damage in epics? Yes. Turbine should give a decent alternative to epic casters to dish some kind of sustainable DPS. Nothing to complain about it.

(Interesting enough, I just noticed that top-tier spell DC is actually reaching the numbers where AC became problematic, which lead to th AC mechanic being changed. I wonder when they will fix saves in the same vein)

[davmuzl]

I don't think people would wait for anyone to debuff anyways. That's why instant massive damage wins in DDO.

It's just a question of how the debuff is applied to the enemy, how big the impact of the debuff is and some other factors.

There are debuffs that are applied by attacking an enemy and especially when it doesn't proc all the time it's doesn't work. Running up to an enemy takes longer than casting a spell and because the most important save is made immediatly (this mainly affects CC) stuff that procs later has no real impact.
I could imagine a debuff that is applied on a cleave attack working pretty well in a group.
Also a lot of debuffs have saves themselves, so that's not very helpful either.

If mobs were strong enough so just running at them and hitting them in the face doesn't work, people would be much more willing to wait for a caster to debuff the enemy and then CC it.
Sadly the times when DDO was balanced enough to where this worked are long gone. Before the current situation where everybody is playing high prr high melee dmg everybody just stayed away from the mobs and still did enough dmg.

[maddong]

I would prefer that dc's were lowered and if they want certain mobs to be more difficult just add something like 25% enchant evasion or 40% necromancy evasion (applying to things that spell resist applies to, similar to 1st edition non level based spell resistance... Was it called magic resistance back then?). For some reason I would prefer that to the bastard ac system.

As it is it is annoying if you have a barb or paladin with a bunch of twists of fate and you want to play something challenging with your friend who has a wizard that doesn't have their Ed's fleshed out. Your friend basically needs shiradi unlocked and can only play in that destiny.

Some of the problem could be fixed if we just lowered all saves and cut back on all the stacking bonuses.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

We would need to see major nerfage to paladins, barbarians, bards, and melees/ranged toons is general if this approach is taken.


Even in content where DC casting works it's far more effective to come with a great axe and plow through the dungeon.

I play a wide variety of builds so I am not looking to see one build shine over another, but if people think DC casters should be ineffective, we should put all builds on an even playing field. I would like to see DC casting work, but if that is not in the cards perhaps nerf the other builds so the challenge level is equal for all builds.

Of note: Monster saving throws are inherently important to get right. This is something that affects nearly every class directly or indirectly. If your character does anything with a saving throw, this matters (whether that's Stunning Blow, Energy Burst, Lightning Bolt, or Finger of Death).

Despite the original thread title, DC Casting is not The One and Only Reason why we care about getting monster saving throws right.



Agreed, and I'd love to add more environmental effects to DDO to shake up gameplay and make it a bit different here and there. (Speaking only for myself, I would personally lean towards crazier Xoriat-like effects if I were picking a game for only me to play! Luckily for many players, there are others to restrain me, including myself since others play DDO.)

We aren't removing the Shavarath Environment. We are altering it and making it less severe.

Personally, I think we need more ways to challenge players and environmental effects from other planes is a great tool IMO.

...and shouldn't a plane of Evil reduce the powers of a Paladin. (although perhaps Shavarath in the Ebberron campaign isn't really an evil plane)

(but I do also want to be able to use our super powers and dominate parts of the dungeon at times too....)


Edit: Maybe nerfing the saves of the Thiefling minions or other common foot soldiers, but leaving high saves for more powerful outsiders.

[Tilomere]

del

[nibel]

...and shouldn't a plane of Evil reduce the powers of a Paladin. (although perhaps Shavarath in the Ebberron campaign isn't really an evil plane)

Shavarath isn't evil. It is just a gigantic battlefield between three mostly-equal forces that can never have a major advantage over the other two. The plane is not evil because one of those forces is composed of celestials. Also, violence by itself is not evil in DnD world.

For Eberron, I think the closest we have to an "evil" plane is Mabar and Dal Quor.

[dunklezhan]

We aren't removing the Shavarath Environment. We are altering it and making it less severe.

I'm not clear: if you're changing how Shavarath works, that's one thing. If you're changing it just for specific quests in a certain range, that's quite another thing. I don't like the second thing at all. Which is it please, Varg?


Also, I remember hitting shav before the cap raised past 20. Essentially if I wasn't in a group, it just wasn't worth it. It took an extreme, specialised build almost made for the purpose to handle solo shavarath on elite and no slouch even on normal. Even now, I probably wouldn't contemplate Shavarath solo on elite. That's how it is supposed to be. That's what I want - when I go to the plan where the devils themselves battle... I expect to get my ass handed to me the first few times. I don't mind if I can't contribute as much as usual in the toughest content. If DC casting doesn't work there... Not really bothered. It never used to work there, you'd more or less spam hold person hoping it would land before the party wiped. Casters will just have to pike this content in a group until they've got the gear and setup to return to Business As Usual.

I know I know, we don't want anyone to feel excluded, but this didn't seem to matter until a few years ago - the wrong content was pike mode for particular classes or builds intentionally as far as I can tell. That was frustrating but it did force people to look for groups, which was good. You want to close the gap, sure, I'm all for it, but I'd rather that was via alternative useful non DC based spells for casters rather than nerfing an entire plane of existence. And if the Twelve are capable of that, then they can clear out their own bloody inn next time.

I realise I'm a casual player - so me getting my ass handed to me is a different thing that an end game specialist. But I thought they wanted a ridiculous level of challenge too. Isn't the point that you have to faceplant a few times and struggle through in order to get the new gear which then makes things more do-able? Maybe the gear rewards are where we should be looking for changes rather than making the whole area easier.

[Requiro]

(...)(Speaking only for myself, I would personally lean towards crazier Xoriat-like effects if I were picking a game for only me to play! (...)

Wild Mage could solve the problem

[davmuzl]

It sure feels and plays the same. Swapping to no-save acid spells when fire doesn't work isn't much different than swapping to no-save acid spells when Necro DC doesn't work. Having that swap or equivalent available (for non-casters) is already required by EE red named HP and mob/champ immunities and buffs. So having a patch of content with an environment effect that makes DC not work isn't the end of the world. DC casting > dps casting in the other 26 patches already.

And while it does effect things like tactics, they aren't primary attacks and players already have to build characters that are good even when tactics are unavailable, since they still have to deal with that red named HP bar.

I'm just saying you could have an entire patch with a powerful environmental effect where every mob was utterly immune to everything with a saving throw in the game, and every build capable of dealing with Red Named HP will do fine against trash.

That's not true. Some builds have very limited DPS and make up for that by using CC. This means that the additional challenge of fighting a red named affects them more than other builds, but they can still deal with it a few times in the quest. They might not be able to deal with a full quest of immune enemies. Just because one time per quest there is a red named doesn't mean you have to make a build that can deal with this all the time.

[slarden]

I realise I'm a casual player - so me getting my ass handed to me is a different thing that an end game specialist.

Doesn't matter. I wasn't complaining. I was throwing a comparison that is implied because of those mob types' immunity to sneak attack. Rogues are supposed to have to work harder to dish damage to undeads just like paladins are supposed to work harder to dish damage to non-evil mobs.

So, under assumptions like those, I don't see anything wrong with saves in Shavarath being a native no-no, where you are supposed to deal with them via no-DC abilities and direct damage.

Now, on the other hand, do casters have a problem with direct damage in epics? Yes. Turbine should give a decent alternative to epic casters to dish some kind of sustainable DPS. Nothing to complain about it.

(Interesting enough, I just noticed that top-tier spell DC is actually reaching the numbers where AC became problematic, which lead to th AC mechanic being changed. I wonder when they will fix saves in the same vein)

It absolutely does matter if you commenting on end game issues and you don't play end game content. The reason I asked is that it didn't seem like you understood the current state of DC casters that are running the most difficult content.

I don't have any problems with eOrchard or EE plants on my rogue - never did even before the pass. Your comparison doesn't really work. All you have to do is look at a casters sp pool and then calculate how many spells you will have to cast to take down a 400k hit point boss. Regular spells are too costly and do too little damage to get to 400k with a reasonable # of spell points. That means casting dps is all about enhancement and ED slas and spell point regeneration. Not all classes have equal access to those things and the very best spell point regeneration involves fire which isn't so useful in eShavarath.

The save requirements as of the last lam update were high 80s and higher. So now your utility spells don't work at all. Debuffs are very costly (sp). Your DC damage spells which are already highly inefficient are doing half damage. You are squishy on top of that compared to other builds.

You can't really compare that to a rogue that has so many ways to bypass fortification and doesn't have dps limited by a resource pool like spell points. There is no comparison. A caster is useless once they run out of sp - there is no such limit for a rogue.

As for the change to the environmental effect, my understanding is that it is only being done because it's an easy way to get the saves right. other than that it has very little impact for epics.

[Grailhawk]

It sure feels and plays the same. Swapping to no-save acid spells when fire doesn't work isn't much different than swapping to no-save acid spells when Necro DC doesn't work. Having that swap or equivalent available (for non-casters) is already required by EE red named HP and mob/champ immunities and buffs. So having a patch of content with an environment effect that makes DC not work isn't the end of the world. DC casting > dps casting in the other 26 patches already.

And while it does effect things like tactics, they aren't primary attacks and players already have to build characters that are good even when tactics are unavailable, since they still have to deal with that red named HP bar.

I'm just saying you could have an entire patch with a powerful environmental effect where every mob was utterly immune to everything with a saving throw in the game, and every build capable of dealing with Red Named HP will do fine against trash.

Quite simply you do not understand that DC casting is a a far wider category then fire spells. Saying DC casting should not work in an entire patch is like saying all elemental spells should not work in an entire patch. Which would be horrible design.

[slarden]

It sure feels and plays the same. Swapping to no-save acid spells when fire doesn't work isn't much different than swapping to no-save acid spells when Necro DC doesn't work. Having that swap or equivalent available (for non-casters) is already required by EE red named HP and mob/champ immunities and buffs. So having a patch of content with an environment effect that makes DC not work isn't the end of the world. DC casting > dps casting in the other 26 patches already.

And while it does effect things like tactics, they aren't primary attacks and players already have to build characters that are good even when tactics are unavailable, since they still have to deal with that red named HP bar.

I'm just saying you could have an entire patch with a powerful environmental effect where every mob was utterly immune to everything with a saving throw in the game, and every build capable of dealing with Red Named HP will do fine against trash.

It was the same way prior to U14 with eChronoscope, eDevil Assualt, TOD, VOD and shroud. Most people respec'd out of fire. Fire has been the best element for a very long time, but with eShavarath and eVale i will be respec'ing my sorc to Water. I just made a tier 3 TOEE item with 156 glaciation and 23% ice lore. ETR into a water savant - and I am ready.

If you don't want to respec unmeta'd magic, chain and force missles aren't bad. Acid is also a decent secondary element.

[Vargouille]

I'm not clear: if you're changing how Shavarath works, that's one thing. If you're changing it just for specific quests in a certain range, that's quite another thing. I don't like the second thing at all. Which is it please, Varg?

Shavarath, for all quests, is going to be different. Specifically: Monster and player characters no longer get +4 to all saving throws (Morale bonus type).

I know I know, we don't want anyone to feel excluded, but this didn't seem to matter until a few years ago - the wrong content was pike mode for particular classes or builds intentionally as far as I can tell. That was frustrating but it did force people to look for groups, which was good. You want to close the gap, sure, I'm all for it, but I'd rather that was via alternative useful non DC based spells for casters rather than nerfing an entire plane of existence. And if the Twelve are capable of that, then they can clear out their own bloody inn next time.

There are a lot of shades of grey here, and for good or ill it falls on us to figure out where to draw the lines. This is also part of the reason we really do want active discussions here, or good points for why it should lean one direction or another.

We're coming from this point of view: Hmm, Shavarath having +10 to monster saves compared to Temple of Elemental Evil seems really quite a lot too high. Pulling back player characters saves by 4 as part of the change also seems acceptable.

We're still leaving in +4 to Enchantment and Fear saving throws, which we feel is still meaningful and affects many casters still. Additionally, after review, we're leaving the Spell Resistance largely intact. We don't feel those values are too high, but they are extremely widespread in Shavarath, so non-damaging harmful spells are still going to have some issues to content with in general.

In short, we feel that Shavarath is going to retain some of the difficulty, lore, and feel without "going too far". Everyone is going to have their own opinion of what "going too far" is, and it's not really something we can expect everyone or even most players to completely agree on.

[Vanhooger]

Shavarath, for all quests, is going to be different. Specifically: Monster and player characters no longer get +4 to all saving throws (Morale bonus type).




There are a lot of shades of grey here, and for good or ill it falls on us to figure out where to draw the lines. This is also part of the reason we really do want active discussions here, or good points for why it should lean one direction or another.

We're coming from this point of view: Hmm, Shavarath having +10 to monster saves compared to Temple of Elemental Evil seems really quite a lot too high. Pulling back player characters saves by 4 as part of the change also seems acceptable.

We're still leaving in +4 to Enchantment and Fear saving throws, which we feel is still meaningful and affects many casters still. Additionally, after review, we're leaving the Spell Resistance largely intact. We don't feel those values are too high, but they are extremely widespread in Shavarath, so non-damaging harmful spells are still going to have some issues to content with in general.

In short, we feel that Shavarath is going to retain some of the difficulty, lore, and feel without "going too far". Everyone is going to have their own opinion of what "going too far" is, and it's not really something we can expect everyone or even most players to completely agree on.

So in short, if you got a DC caster roll a Barb, end of the story.

[slarden]

Additionally, after review, we're leaving the Spell Resistance largely intact. We don't feel those values are too high, but they are extremely widespread in Shavarath, so non-damaging harmful spells are still going to have some issues to content with in general.

So is this the 40-45 mentioned previously or was the 40-45 #s mentioned earlier something you were just considering?

[nibel]

It absolutely does matter if you commenting on end game issues and you don't play end game content. The reason I asked is that it didn't seem like you understood the current state of DC casters that are running the most difficult content.

I assume all I know about current Epic Elite is based on commentaries from friends, guildmates, and forum feedback. I don't like to play EE specifically because I don't think it is "challenging", just a inflated number on all mobs. I did ran endgame elite and epics back when cap was 20, but gave up on EE after Gianthold.

It also doesn't matter if you know all the workarounds to make your rogues to full damage on undeads. You are still using specific tactics and gear and stuff to bypass something that is not needed when you are fighting, let's say, orcs in ToEE. And you are investing on those bypasses specifically because you know you will need to use them if you fight a big skeleton boss.

I understand that casters in general lack sustained DPS, and mob HP inflation has led it to be a major problem. I agree that something should be done to fix that (either countering the HP inflation issue, or giving casters a DPS alternative). I just don't think Shavarath should be the content that care specifically to DC-based stuff. Since ToD was released, Shavarath was the place where DC-based tactics (spells, stuns, etc) was harder to land by design.

DC casting is suffering the same problems that AC run into once the number starts to go over the d20 range, and part of this number is based on gear or buffs (I remember my AC tank that were only hit on a 1, suddenly taking a lot of hits once he was raised, before he could reapply all the AC buffs). Spell DC need a pass of some sort to control the madness (and I don't think the same changes to AC should apply here), but IMO Shavarath is not the place to make that pass.

[davmuzl]

So in short, if you got a DC caster roll a Barb, end of the story.

No that's not at all what he was saying in this post.
He actually said that they want the saves to be somewhat comparable to ToEE and iirc those were not all that high in general.
It's not like just lowering the saves to the point where everybody can hit their spells 95% of the time is going to make anything better.