U27: The Sudden End of All Endgame DC Casting in DDO?

[davmuzl]

Disclaimer: This is getting deeply theoretical and more of a discussion of goals vs. what is necessarily in DDO right at this moment (and subjective, subject to change, etc.)

There are some good points here. There are some details that could be quibbled with, but if a primary difference between a completionist and a first life character is that the first life character has a more narrow focus, yet is still moderately close in effectiveness, for that particular focus, that doesn't seem like the worst thing. (For instance, if a completionist caster might branch out into different twists or damage spells outside of DC casting, which will certainly strengthen the character, but not necessarily blow away a first life character

This looks good at first glance, but let's take a look at how this actually works out in the game.

Let's say we have a first life wizards who is focused on CCing enemies with dancing balls and mass hold monster. This means that every spell he is using has will save. So he might be able to hit enemies with a low will save (even this takes quite a ot of investment), but everything else is a major problem. And don't forget that there are all the undead and a lot of other enemies who are completly immune to these kinds of spells.
So instead of being able to do at least something in every quest, this wizard doesn't have a whole lot to do the majority of the time and he is relying on his party member to actually kill stuff.

Also because having spells hit 95% of the time is so much better than let's say 80% (it means that they fail 75% less) most players don't actually focus that much on different spells. They rather max out 1 spellschool and usually it's necromancy because instant killing is pretty powerful, the number of useful spells in this school is pretty big and the spells work in a variety of situations.

The best enhancement for spellcasters imo is the storm of vengeance SLA for the druid. Not in terms of how much power it gives the spellcaster, but in terms of design. It has a very long cooldown so it can't be spammed like a lot of other SLAs, but it saves a lot of sp. The long cooldown doesn't discourage as much from using it as some other abilities with long cooldowns do, so it actually feels good to use it. You don't have to save it for the next room, because even if you need it there you can still use the actual spell.
This mainly works for damage spells of course because they eat a lot of sp through metamagics and they are used in almst every situation. Utility spells like invisibility don't work well with SLAs. They are not used often enough.
What might help CC casting would be long CD SLAs with increased DCs.
This kind of powerful high level spell is missing for most spellcasters. Instead of getting really powerful spells where the caster has to wait for a good opportunity it's more about spamming out more efficient low level spells.
So yes casters should be very powerful, but they should have to manage their resources.

Something else people have asked a lot for in the past are epic spells. It would propably work out good enoguh if there were epic versions of already existing spells that don't scale well enougn in the epic levels. Spells like wall of fire, stone skin and rage come to mind.

[Gratch]

I see where DC casting is going for a while... and it's 1977 musicals...

It's a warlock life for us
It's a warlock life for us
Who cares about DC
Shiradi for a destiny
It's a warlock life for us

[Seikojin]

This looks good at first glance, but let's take a look at how this actually works out in the game.

Let's say we have a first life wizards who is focused on CCing enemies with dancing balls and mass hold monster. This means that every spell he is using has will save. So he might be able to hit enemies with a low will save (even this takes quite a ot of investment), but everything else is a major problem. And don't forget that there are all the undead and a lot of other enemies who are completly immune to these kinds of spells.
So instead of being able to do at least something in every quest, this wizard doesn't have a whole lot to do the majority of the time and he is relying on his party member to actually kill stuff.

Also because having spells hit 95% of the time is so much better than let's say 80% (it means that they fail 75% less) most players don't actually focus that much on different spells. They rather max out 1 spellschool and usually it's necromancy because instant killing is pretty powerful, the number of useful spells in this school is pretty big and the spells work in a variety of situations.

The best enhancement for spellcasters imo is the storm of vengeance SLA for the druid. Not in terms of how much power it gives the spellcaster, but in terms of design. It has a very long cooldown so it can't be spammed like a lot of other SLAs, but it saves a lot of sp. The long cooldown doesn't discourage as much from using it as some other abilities with long cooldowns do, so it actually feels good to use it. You don't have to save it for the next room, because even if you need it there you can still use the actual spell.
This mainly works for damage spells of course because they eat a lot of sp through metamagics and they are used in almst every situation. Utility spells like invisibility don't work well with SLAs. They are not used often enough.
What might help CC casting would be long CD SLAs with increased DCs.
This kind of powerful high level spell is missing for most spellcasters. Instead of getting really powerful spells where the caster has to wait for a good opportunity it's more about spamming out more efficient low level spells.
So yes casters should be very powerful, but they should have to manage their resources.

Something else people have asked a lot for in the past are epic spells. It would propably work out good enoguh if there were epic versions of already existing spells that don't scale well enougn in the epic levels. Spells like wall of fire, stone skin and rage come to mind.

Without busting into math, you aren't going to get much out of this line of thought. If a first life cc caster can 80% EE (at level), why bother with past lives? If your gains are only 10% then it isn't really something anyone will care about. Now if at level on EE, with max stat and best gear and build, you have a 70% for first life, you will want that 10% from past lives. That I think is a better design path than giving 80% to first lifers on EE at level.

[nibel]

Tentatively, amongst other balance changes, we're planning to:

1. Remove the general +4 bonus to saving throws from the Shavarath Environmental Effect (affecting all player characters and monsters in Shavarath).
2. Remove Epic Resilience from Update 27 quests. We still want to revisit this in a more thorough fashion (ideally along with some other factors, such as Epic Ward and related things), but this should make a big difference for Update 27.

Please, don't.

I know many people consider UMD a given, but one thing I always liked about Shavarath is how we don't need to buff with GH there. Nerfing the environmental effect might also make the level 19 chain even easier than it is right now.

In the same vein, during U25 you said that you didn't knew about the Epic Resilience hidden bonus, so you put all ToEE mobs immune to this effect. That is ok. Those monsters were not designed with that buff, and it was throwing saves beyond the expectations. However, using the same explanation on U27 is not acceptable.

And just as a personal curiosity... is it really EASIER to cut off two different sources from every enemy in four specific quests, than just check the mob data and cut ten points from their saves?

Everything the same is bad. On that we can agree.

However, it is not fun (the definition of what we're seeking!) for your favorite character, of the appropriate level and build (aka: reasonable class & feat choices, gear, etc.), to feel completely unviable.

• Your character feeling useless in an entire quest is beyond boring and decidedly unfun (and a worse offense, if we had to pick between them, though we shouldn't have to).

Like every rogue in every undead, construct, elemental and plant-based chains in the game?

[nibel]

Double post

[Ape_Man]

Like every rogue in every undead, construct, elemental and plant-based chains in the game?

You haven't played a rogue in a while have you?

Hint: assassin's trick

[davmuzl]

Without busting into math, you aren't going to get much out of this line of thought. If a first life cc caster can 80% EE (at level), why bother with past lives? If your gains are only 10% then it isn't really something anyone will care about. Now if at level on EE, with max stat and best gear and build, you have a 70% for first life, you will want that 10% from past lives. That I think is a better design path than giving 80% to first lifers on EE at level.

It's not so much about how high the chance to hit the spell is exactly but more about how much better it is to just focus on one spell school.
Yes you could probably get solid enchantment and necro DCs, but why bother if you can get necro DCs high enough to just kill what you would only CC otherwise.
So instead of trying to get DCs in multiple schools high enough to where they can use those spells a lot of players just invest in defense and some form of DPS. And that's only once they are actually at the point where they can think about this and are not just worrying about hitting any spells.

[BankCoffer]

You haven't played a rogue in a while have you?

Hint: assassin's trick

Great! Now I can not sneak attack only 75% of the time.

[Vargouille]

And just as a personal curiosity... is it really EASIER to cut off two different sources from every enemy in four specific quests, than just check the mob data and cut ten points from their saves?

Yes. Far easier, far faster, and far less prone to mistakes and introducing bugs. Changing one Shavarath Effect and stopping another effect from happening is two changes, and if that change goes wrong we're likely to be able to figure out quickly, and players can tell as well. Changing dozens of monsters requires changes in dozens of places, and making three different small numerical changes in each of those places, where it's very easy to make mistakes, and extremely difficult to verify that each and every change was exactly correct. (Subtracting ten is slightly less error prone than, for instance, subtracting nine or dividing by three, since we work in base ten, but the chance for bugs is mostly on "how many distinct changes", since each change is an opportunity for something to go wrong.)

/tradesecrets

Like every rogue in every undead, construct, elemental and plant-based chains in the game?

I'm sorry if you feel like you are not contributing in any quests with those kinds of monsters. As mentioned in the post I was replying to, everyone or everything the same is not good. There are many shades of grey and it falls on us to figure out where in those shades is acceptable or not. The alternative is making everything the same all the time, because then there's no room for judgement, but that's also less fun.

As always, detailed and concise feedback is welcome. From this post it's hard to be confident I thoroughly understand the nature and severity of the feedback.

[Augon]

Like every rogue in every undead, construct, elemental and plant-based chains in the game?

hmmm....
I must be doing something wrong. My rogue has never run a quest that he felt useless in. Ran Haunted Halls a few nights ago and he had a resepectable kill count thanks to jumping over the undead that I don't have good DPS agains and wailing on he necros who I have excellent damage against even if I cant assassinate them. He also was able to contributed his outstanding trapping skills to the effort.

There are times during quests that I may as well wait for the grunts to take out some trash. But there are times when everyone else was waiting on me to disable a trap (or 20). I've rarely heard fighters and Sorcs complain about feeling useless in a quest where there are traps.

In my opinion, game balance is not giving every class the same abilities and usefulness. It is giving each class different abilities and different ways to contribute. In some quests, an assassin rogue will get half the kills in the quest. In other quests he will be there for his trapper skills. In other quests he will be there for . . . well someone has to be the first to open the chests.

As far as DC casting is concerned, while I agree that my PM is not landing as many FODs as he should across the entire game, I don't think there is anything wrong with a quest or even quest area where the wizard has to change his tactics a bit in order to contribute. I think game balance would be that melee should have to deal with something similar. My guess is that was the original purpose of many undead being incorporeal. It made swinging a weapon at them less than useful. But now, that's laughable as Ghostbane weaps drop like candy in the game.

I salute your effort to make each class distinct, Varg. That is what makes it fun for me. Thanks!

[cave_diver]

Like every rogue in every undead, construct, elemental and plant-based chains in the game?

With all the ways to get fort by-pass in the game along with assassins trick these mobs are no longer an issue

[nibel]

I'm sorry if you feel like you are not contributing in any quests with those kinds of monsters. As mentioned in the post I was replying to, everyone or everything the same is not good. There are many shades of grey and it falls on us to figure out where in those shades is acceptable or not. The alternative is making everything the same all the time, because then there's no room for judgement, but that's also less fun.

As always, detailed and concise feedback is welcome. From this post it's hard to be confident I thoroughly understand the nature and severity of the feedback.

No, not that I feel like I'm not contributing at all in those quests. It is just that my primary source of damage (sneak attack) is highly diminished in those quests, so my rogues have to branch out to non-standard tactics. Use more debuff, trap skills, priorize the few living targets in the quest, etc...

IMO, it is basically the same thing about DC casters on Shavarath. Since their release, DC casting was seriously problematic in Shavarath because of the permanent GH effect. This do not means that all casters are useless, just that they should branch out to other tactics on that zone: No-DC casting, direct damage, buffs, etc.

The "problem" with DC casting being "useless" in general endgame is another problem. But Shavarath in specific I think it is ok for DC casters to be subpar. Just like paladins should (theoretically) have problems in content with good or neutral enemies, while shine against evil mobs.

(Spell Resistance, on the other hand, is an issue that should be looked. Shavarath mobs don't have "extra SR" compared to other mobs, so those should be balanced)

[slarden]

No, not that I feel like I'm not contributing at all in those quests. It is just that my primary source of damage (sneak attack) is highly diminished in those quests, so my rogues have to branch out to non-standard tactics. Use more debuff, trap skills, priorize the few living targets in the quest, etc...

IMO, it is basically the same thing about DC casters on Shavarath. Since their release, DC casting was seriously problematic in Shavarath because of the permanent GH effect. This do not means that all casters are useless, just that they should branch out to other tactics on that zone: No-DC casting, direct damage, buffs, etc.

The "problem" with DC casting being "useless" in general endgame is another problem. But Shavarath in specific I think it is ok for DC casters to be subpar. Just like paladins should (theoretically) have problems in content with good or neutral enemies, while shine against evil mobs.

(Spell Resistance, on the other hand, is an issue that should be looked. Shavarath mobs don't have "extra SR" compared to other mobs, so those should be balanced)

Are you running end game content or Heroic TRing? In high-end epic play, DC casters are subpar almost everywhere except the few places their specialty skills are useful. If DCs aren't reasonable they are useless completely.

My rogue is in my sig and doesn't have problems in any end game content with plants or undead. Assassin's trick works. Mortal fear works. Dodge, AC, evasion and damage works just fine in all content.

I appreciate the devs quick response on this issue.

[patang01]

Yes. Far easier, far faster, and far less prone to mistakes and introducing bugs. Changing one Shavarath Effect and stopping another effect from happening is two changes, and if that change goes wrong we're likely to be able to figure out quickly, and players can tell as well. Changing dozens of monsters requires changes in dozens of places, and making three different small numerical changes in each of those places, where it's very easy to make mistakes, and extremely difficult to verify that each and every change was exactly correct. (Subtracting ten is slightly less error prone than, for instance, subtracting nine or dividing by three, since we work in base ten, but the chance for bugs is mostly on "how many distinct changes", since each change is an opportunity for something to go wrong.)

/tradesecrets



I'm sorry if you feel like you are not contributing in any quests with those kinds of monsters. As mentioned in the post I was replying to, everyone or everything the same is not good. There are many shades of grey and it falls on us to figure out where in those shades is acceptable or not. The alternative is making everything the same all the time, because then there's no room for judgement, but that's also less fun.

As always, detailed and concise feedback is welcome. From this post it's hard to be confident I thoroughly understand the nature and severity of the feedback.

I agree that everything shouldn't be the same, but then you have the first harper quest where all the monster are either immune (like willowhisps and acid) or can't be crit (plant monster) in quest after quest. Now I get that thematically it was about 'druids' going full on loon but it didn't help that so many of the quests had the same bunch of terrible monsters (for that purpose). And of course that's rough on rogues who (if you play assassin) depends on the ability to assassinate.

[Chi_Ryu]

With all the ways to get fort by-pass in the game along with assassins trick these mobs are no longer an issue

This.

A Rogue assassin can have a standing fort bypass of 40%, before even equipping an armour piercing item (up to 35% more) or using Assassin's Trick, for the cost of one normal feat (Precision) and one Rogue feat (Opportunist), with the other 5% coming from a ship buff.

Assassin's Trick also makes some previously immune races susceptible to Assassinate.

If I twist Grim Precision and equip a TF item with Dragon's Edge I have standing 90% fort bypass.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes. Far easier, far faster, and far less prone to mistakes and introducing bugs. Changing one Shavarath Effect and stopping another effect from happening is two changes, and if that change goes wrong we're likely to be able to figure out quickly, and players can tell as well. Changing dozens of monsters requires changes in dozens of places, and making three different small numerical changes in each of those places, where it's very easy to make mistakes, and extremely difficult to verify that each and every change was exactly correct. (Subtracting ten is slightly less error prone than, for instance, subtracting nine or dividing by three, since we work in base ten, but the chance for bugs is mostly on "how many distinct changes", since each change is an opportunity for something to go wrong.)

/tradesecrets



I'm sorry if you feel like you are not contributing in any quests with those kinds of monsters. As mentioned in the post I was replying to, everyone or everything the same is not good. There are many shades of grey and it falls on us to figure out where in those shades is acceptable or not. The alternative is making everything the same all the time, because then there's no room for judgement, but that's also less fun.

As always, detailed and concise feedback is welcome. From this post it's hard to be confident I thoroughly understand the nature and severity of the feedback.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of the Shavarath Effect.
The whole idea of going to another plane is for things to be different there.

This is one pack (or two).
there will be plenty of others where the DC casters can shine.


If anything, you should find a way to add to the Shavarath Effect to make it hard for other players too.

[Braegan]

The problem with DC casters "not shinning" (as I've heard it labeled here) is

- It becomes far too mana intensive to burn bloated hp mobs down, which results in piking or chugging pots

- It calls on DC casters to be relegated to a support role. Now I don't mind this now and then. However, the game is different now. A support role isn't always very welcome due to the ability of everyone being completely self-sufficient. When heroic Amrath was released divines were welcome for heals, BB damage, Arcanes were welcome for displacement and CC. In DDO now a support role isn't needed. A group would rather go with 6 full on DPS that can self-heal, self-buff than take a blue bar class providing superfluous bonuses.

[Tilomere]

del

[willox2112]

This.

A Rogue assassin can have a standing fort bypass of 40%, before even equipping an armour piercing item (up to 35% more) or using Assassin's Trick, for the cost of one normal feat (Precision) and one Rogue feat (Opportunist), with the other 5% coming from a ship buff.

Assassin's Trick also makes some previously immune races susceptible to Assassinate.

If I twist Grim Precision and equip a TF item with Dragon's Edge I have standing 90% fort bypass.

This. Not only this, but the 6th core of Shadowdancer also has a chance to remove sneak attack immunity on ANY monster. With the attack speed you can achieve in epic levels, rolling a 20 is pretty common and coupled with Deception items you get a killer combo.

[Grailhawk]

DCs aren't as relevant anymore as they used to be. Even if it is impossible to make the DC, death ward and death block champions and hp bloated red names already mean every caster including DC casters need to already be built for mana efficient raw damage. So it isn't like all these DC casters will become useless. At most they will need to use their backup they already have built in, which is just like that rogue.

Especially since EA is the DC destiny, and has tons of mana efficient light damage, plus lantern ring, plus a 2 FVS splash. I don't see why DC casters should have the game and an environment specifically themed around DC not working well changed around them, but the aforementioned rogue is told to suck it up.

I had a fire savant for years. The pros and cons of such a build is that it doesn't always work, such as against fire immune mobs. I don't see why fire savants get screwed by all the upcoming fire immune mobs in the new environment but DC casters get the environment adjusted in a way that doesn't make sense with lore so that they do fine in the new content. That seems unfair.

This isn't the same. DC casting is a much wider selection of spells then fire. With in DC casters you have spells to compel things mentally, hold them physically or magically, or yes kill them out right. If a creature is immune to those things cool DC casting should not work on them just like a Fire "mage" should not work against a creature that is fire to immune. But if a creature could be held or compelled or killed then the spells should have a chance to work, what this thread is about is that those spells that should work have no chance to work.