U27 Items Official Discussion - Round 2

[moo_cow]

The base damage rating is exactly that. It doesn't factor in any external modifiers. It isn't meant to be the ultimate information when considering which might be the best weapon after all possible factors are added in.

BDR gives a large advantage to weapons which have keen or impact on them. It's actually relevant to do that for shields, since there is no improved critical feat that effects them.

You use carnifex for your example. It's one of only a very few greataxes (3 now?) that have an abnormal critical profile. There are many axes that have abnormal base die, but the value of that isn't influenced at all by your damage modifier, only by the amount of +(w) effects you use.

There is a belief that Carnifex is always the best weapon at low levels, even for wizards with 10 strength, no power attack, essentially minimal damage modifier. In many cases they would actually be better off using an axe with a higher BDR, especially if it also has extra proc'ing damage effects.

The weapons I compared the one with keen had a lower BDR. I compared the carnifex to a level 16 weapon.

As for shields the vanguard has a great effect on what it means. +2 threat range +7 damage, +1 critical multiplier +2[w]. Also some shield have a x3 multiplier/x2 multiplier. 19-20 crit or 20 crit. So there is actually a difference. The difference is just smaller especially since there is no IC for them.

[FestusHood]

The weapons I compared the one with keen had a lower BDR. I compared the carnifex to a level 16 weapon.

As for shields the vanguard has a great effect on what it means. +2 threat range +7 damage, +1 critical multiplier +2[w]. Also some shield have a x3 multiplier/x2 multiplier. 19-20 crit or 20 crit. So there is actually a difference. The difference is just smaller especially since there is no IC for them.

Agreed, all those additional effects do make a difference. I finally got all the pieces to make an antique greataxe. Im trying to decide just what build to use to most take advantage of it's 1d20 base damage. My main consideration will be what can stack the most possible +(w) effects. Different things than i would consider if i was trying to take advantage of a drow greataxe for example. I don't know which of those has a higher BDR offhand, i would just guess it is the drow axe.

That small shield in this update is the first named shield i have seen that has impact on it. It would get more benefit from the +2 vanguard enhancement to threat range than any other shield. The Ultimatum has the biggest base die, it would benefit more from the extra 2(w). On the downside, it appears to be missing the 2 outside the bracket that most epic weapons/shields have. It could be that it ends up worse than the Aegis for standard auto shield bashing, but better for special attacks that add +(w). I'm too lazy to work out the math in detail though.

[Steve_Howe]

It seems weird to argue something to the death when you can't even attempt to understand the other side.

Irony.

[Infiltraitor]

Just saw the new longsword, Fellblade. It is 18-20/x2 instead of 17-20/x3.


It would be better as 17-20/x2, as stated. Now it is just an upgraded Oathblade sans d10, and not as good as a Thunderforged Khopesh.

To actually be decent raid loot at 18-20/x2, it would need to be 5.5[1d10] and Mythic +2/+4.

[moo_cow]

Irony.

I know what I'm talking about and you don't. Is that what irony is? Guess I've got it wrong this entire time.

[Steve_Howe]

I know what I'm talking about and you don't. Is that what irony is? Guess I've got it wrong this entire time.

Bless your little heart!

[Steve_Howe]

Just saw the new longsword, Fellblade. It is 18-20/x2 instead of 17-20/x3.


It would be better as 17-20/x2, as stated. Now it is just an upgraded Oathblade sans d10, and not as good as a Thunderforged Khopesh.

To actually be decent raid loot at 18-20/x2, it would need to be 5.5[1d10] and Mythic +2/+4.

Yeah, they REALLY screwed this item over. HIGHLY disappointed.

[IronClan]

I'm sorry but this is simply not true. When you compare the ultimatum to the madstone aegis at a certain + to damage mod the ultimatum starts to do more damage. When you factor in the special things from vanguard such as expanded threat range and + to crit multipliers you will notice at different points one will be better than the other.

As I said if you don't know that much about how the game works BDR can deceive you.

But this goes both ways, if you don't know how BDR works it can deceive you.

You should read the wiki entry on BDR, it's quite obvious that you don't know what how it's formulated... You've made statements over and over that show you don't even know what is included in the forumla, including in the above post in the part I didn't quote.

Now as for a affixes and special cases like that shield obviously you're not going to use 1 data point to make a choice... you're not going to base it off one affix either that would be just as dumb as basing it off only BDR.

[IronClan]

Just saw the new longsword, Fellblade. It is 18-20/x2 instead of 17-20/x3.


It would be better as 17-20/x2, as stated. Now it is just an upgraded Oathblade sans d10, and not as good as a Thunderforged Khopesh.

To actually be decent raid loot at 18-20/x2, it would need to be 5.5[1d10] and Mythic +2/+4.

Yep very disapointed, they got cold feat about a possible 60% crit range and bailed on the only Named Long Sword that would have been worthy of using. I was even considering making a Long Sword and Board user... oh well... I wouldn't have ultimately X2 even if it critted 60% of the time is meh.

[Steve_Howe]

You should read the wiki entry on BDR, it's quite obvious that you don't know what how it's formulated...

You ruined it! I would have preferred he live in ignorance!

Oh well.

[SealedInSong]

Divine Disciple.

It adds it to your spellbook.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Divine_disciple

>>> Sunburst: Your Cleric spellbook gains Sunburst as a level 8 spell.

The only sunburst SLAs I can think of are:
morninglord
season's herald

[Infiltraitor]

Yep very disapointed, they got cold feat about a possible 60% crit range and bailed on the only Named Long Sword that would have been worthy of using. I was even considering making a Long Sword and Board user... oh well... I wouldn't have ultimately X2 even if it critted 60% of the time is meh.

Actually, ditching the 17-20/x2 was the SMART move, but they didn't make the right changes to make it usable. The alternative was Divine Crusader Paladin 9-20/x3 (+120% from crits) and they were right to nerf that part. However, they simply nerfed the good parts and left in the worthless parts and made a weapon inferior to Thunderforged, which everyone already has.

They upgraded it's power to equal a scimitar and rapier, but they forget that scimitars and rapiers are gimped too.

So, Sev, if you are reading this, here is what you should change the weapon to:


5.5[1d8]
18-20/x2
13 Enchantment Bonus
Sovereign Vorpal
Double Strike 15%
Mythic Weapon Boost +15
Aligned, Cold Iron
Orange Augment
Red Augment

Voila, the weapon is suddenly an upgraded Devourer's Reaping that doesn't suck. The 10d4 Lawful damage and 4d4 banishing is cute, but won't sell Raid Timers. While not making the weapon as strong as a Thunderforged, would still be at least stronger than the non-raid Temple of Elemental Evil weapons and their +24 to Melee Power and Universal Spellpower.

Edit: Do it Sev, Do it for the turbine store sales.

[Axeyu]

You ruined it! I would have preferred he live in ignorance!

Oh well.

Dude. You are the ignorant one here. BDR is a pointless number, just as moo_cow pointed out. It serves no purpose what so ever and you are just setting yourself up for a mistake if you pay any attention to it at all.
Personally I just pretend that it doesn't exist and when I want to compare items I do the actual math.

[moo_cow]

As I said if you don't know that much about how the game works BDR can deceive you.

But this goes both ways, if you don't know how BDR works it can deceive you.

You should read the wiki entry on BDR, it's quite obvious that you don't know what how it's formulated... You've made statements over and over that show you don't even know what is included in the forumla, including in the above post in the part I didn't quote.

Now as for a affixes and special cases like that shield obviously you're not going to use 1 data point to make a choice... you're not going to base it off one affix either that would be just as dumb as basing it off only BDR.

Seriously Iron, what are you even talking about. I know how BDR is calculated. I know the damage mods and effects doesn't factor in to BDR. That is why I am saying BDR is worthless. If you don't understand that .... I can't even... the sheer stupidity ....The entry on the wiki even leads to a thread where I have a post where I explain that BDR does not factor in anything aside from what is on the weapon, therefore it is useless. It also leads on to explain how the calculation for BDR that a weapon displays isn't even correct. Not relative to this response, but I think it is fairly clear that I know what I'm talking about. You however do not.

I clearly said in the above post that BDR only factors in what is on the weapon. That gives no signifcant detail about your damage however since it doesn't include bonuses to damage. When you factor in important damage, crit multipliers, crit range, etc(those are the expanded crit ranges and multipliers that don't show on the weapon, which is a lot of them). It is quite evident that BDR provides no benefit to making choices. To back that up all you have to do is look at the bdr, then do the math with damage factored in.

You also claimed that a barb with 100 static damage and 45 mod str could determine a choice. This still isn't true because every weapon is different. I already showed you that this isn't the case. The only time BDR is helpful in determining if a weapon is good or not is if the weapon has the exact same crit range, multiplier, same static damage, and same base die roll. The only difference left is the enhancement bonus, and if a person can't tell if a 5 is bigger than a 4 than they have no hope.

You and steve howe must be the only people in the game that actually think BDR matters.

[moo_cow]

It adds it to your spellbook.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Divine_disciple

>>> Sunburst: Your Cleric spellbook gains Sunburst as a level 8 spell.

The only sunburst SLAs I can think of are:
morninglord
season's herald

It's possible he might of misspoke. Because while it is added to your spell book there is still no save, even if it says there is one.

[Cordovan]

Please cut the insults and personal attacks out, folks. I get that item talk can get heated, but no need to insult each other.

[Postumus]

Seriously Iron, what are you even talking about. I know how BDR is calculated. I know the damage mods and effects doesn't factor in to BDR. That is why I am saying BDR is worthless. If you don't understand that .... I can't even... the sheer stupidity ....The entry on the wiki even leads to a thread where I have a post where I explain that BDR does not factor in anything aside from what is on the weapon, therefore it is useless. It also leads on to explain how the calculation for BDR that a weapon displays isn't even correct. Not relative to this response, but I think it is fairly clear that I know what I'm talking about. You however do not.

Well said and dead on.

[axel15810]

Anyone ran weapon calcs on the new weapons yet? I assume T3 thunderforged with mortal fear is still king of trash killing easily, but I'm wondering how these new weapons stack up to T2 Thunderforged and against bosses.

[Axeyu]

Anyone ran weapon calcs on the new weapons yet? I assume T3 thunderforged with mortal fear is still king of trash killing easily, but I'm wondering how these new weapons stack up to T2 Thunderforged and against bosses.

Here's a calc. https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6c1wl7ytr...date%203.6.ods Have at it. Add your own build and compare the weapons. I'm expecting a video!

[Grailhawk]

Anyone ran weapon calcs on the new weapons yet? I assume T3 thunderforged with mortal fear is still king of trash killing easily, but I'm wondering how these new weapons stack up to T2 Thunderforged and against bosses.

Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 15-18/x2 19-20/x3, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 13 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Avarage: 110.51 
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 127.09 

Thunder Froged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x2 19-20/x3, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 12 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 144.09 
Discounting Fire damage: 139.96 


Adding +2 Crit Threat and +1 Crit Mult
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 13 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 129.39 
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 148.80

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 12 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 183.26
Discounting Fire damage: 179.14


At damage mod 50
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 63 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 221.89
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 255.17

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 62 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 275.76
Discounting Fire damage: 271.64


With 100 Melee Power and 20 Seeker 
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 63 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 387.96
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 446.16

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 62 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 428.84
Discounting Fire damage: 426.71

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Flame Touched, Dragon Edge, Crippling Flames
Per Hit Average: 463.94

It looks like it competitive depending on content though some more detailed analysis is warranted as Doublestrike doesn't really work the way I'm factoring it in.