U27 Items Official Discussion - Round 2

[Steve_Howe]

Takes away choice. Bad design... Anyone who uses Wisdom as a primary stat now has one choice for a Wisdom item. All other goggles are now off the table for that character.

I mean, I've got characters who might use a +11 item instead of a +12 item in my primary stat to make gearing work, but no one is going to pass up a +12 item that ALSO has +4 insight bonus...

Absolute best in slot items are bad design. There should always be some trade-off... Hard choices means the devs are doing it right. No-brainers mean they messed up.

Plus, what's the point of even having an insight bonus if you're going to put it on the same item as the primary stat? Just get rid of insight bonuses and make it a +16 wisdom item.

Disagree.

My monk will NOT be using these new goggles.

Why, you ask?

Because he uses Epic Litany of the Dead trinket.

So what?

Right now my monk uses Epic Glimpse of the Soul which has +11 WIS, True Seeing and some other stuff. My +3 to WIS is in my docent which I will NOT be giving up because it also has a +3 to CON insight bonus.

If I change out Glimpse of the Soul for the new goggles, I lose True Seeing but gain another 2 to my Wisdom. Since I lose True Seeing, I have to get it back some other way, probably via the Compass trinket which means I lose Litany of the Dead. That means I lose +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom so I'm back where I started Wisdom-score-wise. Not only do I lose the +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom, I lose the +2 Profane bonus to all other stats.

Since I refuse to lose True Seeing, I will NOT be using the new goggles on my monk. The new goggles are NOT NECESSARILY the absolute best in slot item even for monks.

[Ape_Man]

Trust me, it's not for lack of trying. The 5 or 6 of us that are willing to try and learn this have gone in there, many times knowing that we will fail before we start. We don't have some of the right parts to make it easier, i.e. none of us has a caster that can reliably crowd control the archers, let alone anything else.

Make some more friends?

[Grailhawk]

Plus, what's the point of even having an insight bonus if you're going to put it on the same item as the primary stat? Just get rid of insight bonuses and make it a +16 wisdom item.

In this case it prevents power creep of having a +16 item and then fitting in a +4 or 3 insight item, that's the point.

[FestusHood]

Make some more friends?

You've said that before, it's just not me. I've been on losing teams before, my first thought wasn't "later guys, i'm gonna go join the other team". Even if that was satisfying for me, which it wouldn't be, it would do nothing to help my other friends.

[Xahtep]

Disagree.

My monk will NOT be using these new goggles.

Why, you ask?

Because he uses Epic Litany of the Dead trinket.

So what?

Right now my monk uses Epic Glimpse of the Soul which has +11 WIS, True Seeing and some other stuff. My +3 to WIS is in my docent which I will NOT be giving up because it also has a +3 to CON insight bonus.

If I change out Glimpse of the Soul for the new goggles, I lose True Seeing but gain another 2 to my Wisdom. Since I lose True Seeing, I have to get it back some other way, probably via the Compass trinket which means I lose Litany of the Dead. That means I lose +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom so I'm back where I started Wisdom-score-wise. Not only do I lose the +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom, I lose the +2 Profane bonus to all other stats.

Since I refuse to lose True Seeing, I will NOT be using the new goggles on my monk. The new goggles are NOT NECESSARILY the absolute best in slot item even for monks.

For an 16 item like that id be scrolling true seeing every 10 minutes if necesary. But i see your point. Still those googles need some sort of balancing. Not completly removing the +3 ki of course.

[fangblackhawk]

I'd like all of these things more if there was a reason to want them. Why do I want ML28 loot at this point? Just like with TF tier 3 and MOD items, these items should be ML26. ML27 max.

iirc the producers letter stated the cap will increase from 28 to 30 near the end of the year...... giving us about 6 months to get a smattering of gear we "think" will work with epic green steel from hints we hope we interpreted right (a few hours of a ui on test server that didnt exist and was possibly mentioned to be possibly be linked to epic green steel and or sentient wepons for one).... to have to farm the stuff out we really should of been farming for what epic green steel really is for our Uber end game builds and the new and improved shroud farm ....... and will i die if i wear uncleansed heroic green steel with epic uncleansed green steel

[Unsmitten]

Would you consider trading the +2 quality will save on Resonation to +20 Perform? or the wizardry XI on Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier?

Perform +20 items are to my knowledge only on ML25 Ring of Deceit from FoT and ML27 Cord of Reprisals from Inferno of the Damned. Another itemization option for perform would be much appreciated, especially if it's on a beneficial item like Resonation would be.

[Xahtep]

Would you consider trading the +2 quality will save on Resonation to +20 Perform? or the wizardry XI on Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier?

Perform +20 items are to my knowledge only on ML25 Ring of Deceit from FoT and ML27 Cord of Reprisals from Inferno of the Damned. Another itemization option for perform would be much appreciated, especially if it's on a beneficial item like Resonation would be.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Shimmering_Pendant

[slarden]

Can we get the tiered loot again?

Also, why not any new augments? Is this system completly abandoned now?

We basically have that with mythic bonuses now. +2 and +4 mythics rarely drop below EE and aren't available as 20th end rewards.

It sounds like it's not as tiered as previously - you can get the +2 and +4 mythics on EE and very rarely below that level. At least that is the way I understand it.

[JOTMON]

Takes away choice. Bad design... Anyone who uses Wisdom as a primary stat now has one choice for a Wisdom item. All other goggles are now off the table for that character.

I mean, I've got characters who might use a +11 item instead of a +12 item in my primary stat to make gearing work, but no one is going to pass up a +12 item that ALSO has +4 insight bonus...

Absolute best in slot items are bad design. There should always be some trade-off... Hard choices means the devs are doing it right. No-brainers mean they messed up.

Plus, what's the point of even having an insight bonus if you're going to put it on the same item as the primary stat? Just get rid of insight bonuses and make it a +16 wisdom item.

Yes it is an item that every Monk and Cleric and Monk will now try to build around. (obviously oriented for Monks)
I don't see how this is a bad design, its an item that has been missing from the loot tables for far too long.. and comparable to items in this level range.
lets compare to..

Mythic Emerald Gaze for any STR build...
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mythic_Emerald_Gaze
Strength +11
Insightful Strength +4
Intimidate +20
Shatter +12
Insightful Will Save +2
Immunity to Fear
Tendon Slice 8%
Insightful Combat Mastery +5
Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow or Blue Augment Slot)
Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green Augment Slot

and low and behold Mythic Emerald Gaze is.. level 27 and BTA..

[Saekee]

Disagree.

My monk will NOT be using these new goggles.

Why, you ask?

Because he uses Epic Litany of the Dead trinket.

So what?

Right now my monk uses Epic Glimpse of the Soul which has +11 WIS, True Seeing and some other stuff. My +3 to WIS is in my docent which I will NOT be giving up because it also has a +3 to CON insight bonus.

If I change out Glimpse of the Soul for the new goggles, I lose True Seeing but gain another 2 to my Wisdom. Since I lose True Seeing, I have to get it back some other way, probably via the Compass trinket which means I lose Litany of the Dead. That means I lose +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom so I'm back where I started Wisdom-score-wise. Not only do I lose the +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom, I lose the +2 Profane bonus to all other stats.

Since I refuse to lose True Seeing, I will NOT be using the new goggles on my monk. The new goggles are NOT NECESSARILY the absolute best in slot item even for monks.

I am guessing you do not have enhanced ki then, or is in the docent? In which case +3 enhanced ki with the new goggles would come in handy?
Note that you argue for having a trinket purely for True seeing which can be remediated by scrolling it--it will last 10 minutes (if it were only 5 minutes, I can understand the issue, but 10min is plenty). +3 ki and +2 MOAR wisdom is very nice...You probably don't need the intercession ward on the Glimpse goggles and the bluff bonus (or whatever the skill bonus of +20 in the Glimpse goggles) there can be put in an augment (a lower bonus but OK).
That said, you already have a setup so I can understand not needing to change it.

[Vellrad]

Yes it is an item that every Monk and Cleric and Monk will now try to build around. (obviously oriented for Monks)
I don't see how this is a bad design, its an item that has been missing from the loot tables for far too long.. and comparable to items in this level range.
lets compare to..

Mythic Emerald Gaze for any STR build...
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mythic_Emerald_Gaze
Strength +11
Insightful Strength +4
Intimidate +20
Shatter +12
Insightful Will Save +2
Immunity to Fear
Tendon Slice 8%
Insightful Combat Mastery +5
Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow or Blue Augment Slot)
Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green Augment Slot

and low and behold Mythic Emerald Gaze is.. level 27 and BTA..

Str doesn't counts because divine might.

[JOTMON]

Str doesn't counts because divine might.

Why because those with access to divine might don't get the stacking bonus.. not all STR builds have a Divine might alternative.
There is no Wisdom version of Divine might that Wisdom builds can substitute.
There are a lot of other bonuses on Emerald Gaze that still have a good synergy for STR builds.

Vision of Precision Helm has
Wisdom +12
Insightful Wisdom+4
Enhanced Ki +3
Dazing X
Green Slot and Blue Slot
BTCoA

How is this considered OP compared to Mythic Emerald Gaze.
Its one level higher min level required and BTC.

[Wizza]

Yes it is an item that every Monk and Cleric and Monk will now try to build around. (obviously oriented for Monks)
I don't see how this is a bad design, its an item that has been missing from the loot tables for far too long.. and comparable to items in this level range.
lets compare to..

Mythic Emerald Gaze for any STR build...
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mythic_Emerald_Gaze
Strength +11
Insightful Strength +4
Intimidate +20
Shatter +12
Insightful Will Save +2
Immunity to Fear
Tendon Slice 8%
Insightful Combat Mastery +5
Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow or Blue Augment Slot)
Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green Augment Slot

and low and behold Mythic Emerald Gaze is.. level 27 and BTA..

I agree. We get an amazing designed item for str and noone complains, everyone just says "such a good item!".

We get the same exact thing for Wisdom and people call it op.

Either we call them both op or they are both good items.

[Rys]

We basically have that with mythic bonuses now. +2 and +4 mythics rarely drop below EE and aren't available as 20th end rewards.

It sounds like it's not as tiered as previously - you can get the +2 and +4 mythics on EE and very rarely below that level. At least that is the way I understand it.

Yeah, that is true. Better than nothing I guess. Even tho, I would rather have tiered loot where the elite reward is granted. I wanted to smash my head against the table everytime I've got Epic Emerald Gaze in EE VoL. Or does it work differently for U27?

[Steve_Howe]

I agree. We get an amazing designed item for str and noone complains, everyone just says "such a good item!".

We get the same exact thing for Wisdom and people call it op.

Either we call them both op or they are both good items.

I think people just hate Monks.

[slarden]

He wasn't talking about mythic quest items. He was talking about all or nothing raid loot.

That is what I am talking about too. As I understand it mythic versions of raid items will rarely drop below EE. this is very close to all or nothing raid loot.

I think they should step up the drop rate of +2 mythic items on EH and then step up the drop the rate of both +2 and +4 mythic items on EE.

The current design makes EH less compelling if you don't get a meaningful increase in at least the +2 mythic drop rate.

[Cetus]

You were specifically talking about raid loot. As far as i know, these don't yet have mythic versions, just the one. They already have higher drop rates on elite. We're not talking about getting a slightly better version of the item on elite, we're talking about getting the item in any form, at all.

Believe it or not, there are many people playing this game that can never reasonably expect to beat MOD on epic elite. Certainly not often enough to farm it. Are you willing to pay 5000 tp for new packs to make up for all the lost sales from people who don't buy it because they know there is literally no chance to ever get the loot from it?

I will assume then that you think an appropriate droprate for phlogs in thunderholme would be 0% on epic normal, 2% on hard, and 100% on elite?

Before you say that people who can't complete epic elite raids aren't trying hard enough, i'll just say that the belief that anybody can do anything with enough effort is inaccurate. Innate talent is a real thing. If Shaq couldn't make his free throws, i guess he just wasn't trying hard enough right?

First - I think the raid loot does have mythic versions, I was clarifying this earlier.

Second - Whether we talk about raid loot or normal loot, it doesn't matter. My suggestion applies to all loot, and that is to provide loot whose power is proportional to the challenge that was overcome to obtain it.

Third - Higher drop rates is not an incentive, because the rate at which you complete normal versions usually far exceeds the drop rate difference between difficulties. Going back to raid bypass timers here...

Fourth - I call BS on "never being able to beat EE MOD". The fact that you're interested is good, you should hook up with other like minded players and see if you can workout a strategy to beat it. When you do, pulling that EE exclusive shiny will feel that much better. Handing out the same exact gear to EN competent characters and EE competetent characters cheapens the game in my opinion.

So, people have incentive to buy packs - because whatever difficulty they can handle, they'll get appropriately powered loot that may help them advance in power sufficiently to tackle EE.

And this is the nature of the game, you pool your resources together to tackle new content, the loot from which will makes things easier - until the next update comes out. Rinse, repeat.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Disagree.

My monk will NOT be using these new goggles.

Why, you ask?

Because he uses Epic Litany of the Dead trinket.

So what?

Right now my monk uses Epic Glimpse of the Soul which has +11 WIS, True Seeing and some other stuff. My +3 to WIS is in my docent which I will NOT be giving up because it also has a +3 to CON insight bonus.

If I change out Glimpse of the Soul for the new goggles, I lose True Seeing but gain another 2 to my Wisdom. Since I lose True Seeing, I have to get it back some other way, probably via the Compass trinket which means I lose Litany of the Dead. That means I lose +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom so I'm back where I started Wisdom-score-wise. Not only do I lose the +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom, I lose the +2 Profane bonus to all other stats.

Since I refuse to lose True Seeing, I will NOT be using the new goggles on my monk. The new goggles are NOT NECESSARILY the absolute best in slot item even for monks.

Piercing Clarity from gmof?
Dunno what destiny or twists you have in use.

[Steelstar]

First - I think the raid loot does have mythic versions, I was clarifying this earlier.

It does!