Developers, can we talk about the Binding status of items?

[JOTMON]

Some of the binding makes no sense..

Raid items.. sure BTCoA its a raid item that should notably be the best of the best named items in the game for the level it represents.
Upgraded crafted items.. makes sense to bind as you tier up power of named items..

Quest items.. BTA/BTCoE/BTAoE.. in many cases is heavy handed.. many items coming out of quests shouldn't be bound at all.. only the more powerful/upgradeable items should carry these tags..

Chain end rewards.. BTCoA.. why is it that Quest items are BTA, unbound when the chain is fully bound and not tiered for difficulty.. chain drops normal version and is BTC.. why?
This makes no sense to me whatsoever.. if anything the chain version should have lesser restrictions than the quest version.. you have to run 4 quests at a chance of getting a item from the reward list.. not farm 1 chest in a quest.

Fix end reward list givers for running chains.. don't give us some BS of how its not possible.. you are doing it in saga's already with a point system and sagas recognize difficulties and reward list is based on it.
Unbind chain rewards or change them to the on equip binding.. whatever tier is less than the quest farm version... makes no sense to me that farming 1 quest gives a better reward than farming the whole chain.
Add named items to chain end reward list.. after a while it gets annoying to see 3 +3 BTC search tomes on the same list.. I am in a level 200 guild.. we already farmed the hell out of guild renown.. everything on the saga list is btc.
Expand the list and give us some unbound choices that we can trade or sell.. unbind all the tomes on the saga chain reward list. I would even be happy to see the guild renown stones unbound.. there would be a market for those.

On of the other things I hate seeing is "exclusive".. not every clicky item needs to be exclusive.. seriously...
Yes its nice to have clickies and more than one.. they take inventory space which means the more things we have the more space we will need and we will adjust, farm favor, buy more space...
Raid items should not be exclusive.. its already a grind to get them.
if we craft/build/upgrade something it shouldn't be exclusive.. Devs screwed us on Ornamental daggers with retroactive exclusive.. Kobolds still hate you for this..

and of course there are the flasks.. I was excited when I heard they wer ecoming.. great something for non-UMD users with stacks of unlimited vendor scrolls......
They came out and I farmed and crafted two of them only to discover...BTC and long shared timers.... one of the stupidest thing I have seen in this game.. two pots on the same toon.. ahhhhhrrrgrrrrr...
It was a grind getting them and an ever longer grind making them..clickity.f.click...10,000 times...
remove shared timers. give each flask its own cooldown timer.. If I want to build/carry 10 flasks and cycle drink them then let me.. its 10 inventory slots.. or the equivalent space of 1,000 scrolls...

We want "re-playability" of content.. not "one and done".

[Vargouille]

There's more to discuss here, but one short thing worth nothing: From our point of view, looking globally, being able to trade loot doesn't result in increased running of quests. For every piece of loot you trade to someone else, that just means you ran the quest more, and someone else ran the quest less (whoever got the loot from you). That's not to say trading is always and inherently undesirable, nor is it inherently desirable.

In summary, "I'll run this quest more if I can trade the loot!" isn't inherently compelling as a reason to make more of the loot in DDO unbound or bind on equip. We do realize this affects different players differently (sellers vs. buyers).

We continue to use a variety of binding in different situations, and sometimes the same situation, and expect that to continue in the future. Occasionally some players believe a single update indicates a new method has been chosen, Now and Forever. This is explicitly not the case for loot binding.

[mezzorco]

Why, at some point in DDO history, we changed from Unbound or even BtCoE items to BtA items in quests?

Because if items were tradeable, less premium players would buy the adventure pack, since they can simply trade for items they need.

From our point of view, looking globally, being able to trade loot doesn't result in increased running of quests.

True. Indeed, being able to trade has the opposite effect.
If I cannot trade items and loot an unwanted item, I'll have to run it a second (third, fourth...) time.
If I can trade items and loot an unwanted item, I'll trade it for the item I'm looking for.

[Wh070aa]

There's more to discuss here, but one short thing worth nothing: From our point of view, looking globally, being able to trade loot doesn't result in increased running of quests. For every piece of loot you trade to someone else, that just means you ran the quest more, and someone else ran the quest less (whoever got the loot from you). That's not to say trading is always and inherently undesirable, nor is it inherently desirable.

In summary, "I'll run this quest more if I can trade the loot!" isn't inherently compelling as a reason to make more of the loot in DDO unbound or bind on equip. We do realize this affects different players differently (sellers vs. buyers).

We continue to use a variety of binding in different situations, and sometimes the same situation, and expect that to continue in the future. Occasionally some players believe a single update indicates a new method has been chosen, Now and Forever. This is explicitly not the case for loot binding.

Or someone ran the quest same amount of times as you, but could not get the item he wanted, but got the item you ran the quest for instead.
Running quest for 40+times to get the thing you want is not fun, when you have do trow out items someone else is running the 40 runs for.
And the person buying the things has to run other quests for something to trade the stuff you have.

Only problem is that inflation in this game is out of control, and the duping.

Trading means interaction with other players, and reason to look for items.

More grind =/= more playtime. I personally don't bother with the rare, untradeable stuff, because I newer get it, even when I statistically should.

Trade=interaction=more fun=more players. While extreme grind gains you more in game/in quest time initially, it creates dead continent, and causes people to stop playing.

[Vellrad]

There's more to discuss here, but one short thing worth nothing: From our point of view, looking globally, being able to trade loot doesn't result in increased running of quests. For every piece of loot you trade to someone else, that just means you ran the quest more, and someone else ran the quest less (whoever got the loot from you). That's not to say trading is always and inherently undesirable, nor is it inherently desirable.

In summary, "I'll run this quest more if I can trade the loot!" isn't inherently compelling as a reason to make more of the loot in DDO unbound or bind on equip. We do realize this affects different players differently (sellers vs. buyers).

We continue to use a variety of binding in different situations, and sometimes the same situation, and expect that to continue in the future. Occasionally some players believe a single update indicates a new method has been chosen, Now and Forever. This is explicitly not the case for loot binding.

You forgot about people who are too bad to run content and they can trade for it or forget it.
Them trading won't make quest less run, because they wouldn't complete anyway.

Also, in current BtA, you only need 1 item ever. Period.
In BtCoE, you can't use same item on 15 alts, so if you got more toons, you need to run it more.

[arkonas]

You forgot about people who are too bad to run content and they can trade for it or forget it.
Them trading won't make quest less run, because they wouldn't complete anyway.

Also, in current BtA, you only need 1 item ever. Period.
In BtCoE, you can't use same item on 15 alts, so if you got more toons, you need to run it more.

actually this guy does have a point. its like the pale green ioun stone and necro 4 gear. its all awesome and its bta. so once you tr or something you move it to another toon so on. the only time you need to look for more is if you have numerous toons at that level that needs that gear. other then that all it does it get passed. now on another note i am one of the few players who doesn't want to farm **** into the ground. reason i do this is because i hate it for one and two i don't want to kill my desire to run the content into the ground so i hate it.


i like being able to walk into a quests or chain line i dont do often. i have never completed a thunderforged ever. yet alone even come close to 10 runs before i tr. i just don't care. sure it would be nice one day. or run marked for death a thousand times. i've ran it maybe a total of 25 times and one item out of it. this gives me reasons to keep running it. i know some just want to kill their enjoyment but hey that is their call and then what will they do when they have all of that gear sitting there with nothing to achieve.

so i guess my point is i like the variety of bta, bind on equip and even unbound. as long as i see a variety im happy.

[Rys]

There's more to discuss here, but one short thing worth nothing: From our point of view, looking globally, being able to trade loot doesn't result in increased running of quests. For every piece of loot you trade to someone else, that just means you ran the quest more, and someone else ran the quest less (whoever got the loot from you). That's not to say trading is always and inherently undesirable, nor is it inherently desirable.

In summary, "I'll run this quest more if I can trade the loot!" isn't inherently compelling as a reason to make more of the loot in DDO unbound or bind on equip. We do realize this affects different players differently (sellers vs. buyers).

We continue to use a variety of binding in different situations, and sometimes the same situation, and expect that to continue in the future. Occasionally some players believe a single update indicates a new method has been chosen, Now and Forever. This is explicitly not the case for loot binding.

For me, trading was a huge part of the game while staying at the cap. And that was practically killed in the last couple updates and so was my play time. There is really very little number of things to do for people who wants to stay at the cap.

But it is your choice, can't say I care anymore.

[Enoach]

I see a place for all binding types myself. I'm not against trading but I also understand that there are some items that just should not be tradable after they have been looted.

Bind to Character on Acquire - One of if not the oldest binding method in DDO. My feeling is this should be limited to Raid specific loot and End rewards (especially end rewards where the ML is lower then comparable items)

Bind to Account on Acquire - My feeling is this should be used for special items that have a reduced ML that are not character specific possibly consumable in nature. I also feel any Canieth Crafted item should be bound to Account and not bound to Character - in its current state the majority that do use this system appear to use it for low to early mid level gear creation.

Bind to Character on Equip - These should be limited to quest loot drops of rare items.


Now as clarification:

First I'm not a fan of ingredients being bound. I do like the Shroud model where the bulk of the ingredients are not bound and only the Power Shards are bound to character on acquire, Lord of Blades similar with the Spirits needed for binding. This allows players to trade to get what they want, but also requires that the character earn 3 (single shard) to 4 (double shard) of the total ingredients needed to have the item. While the two new dragon raids have a much simpler crafting ingredients (basically Ingots, CoVs, red scales, shadow scales and red/shadow phylactery) I still think the system is flawed in the amounts required. Turbine has done a good job in the past to help players be assured at a good chance of getting something they want out of a raid on the 20th completion. Most raids meet that. Now sometimes we can get 3+ end reward lists and still not get what we are after [Reason I don't have a Radiant Set on my cleric ] but for the most part many do get something useful out of a raid within the first 20 runs (again not always the exact item they were after). I think the system would have been better for the two new dragon raids if the phylactery amount was reduced to 1 and its drop rate was more like the Power Shards in Shroud. This would have given Turbine a chance to create 3 distinct lists - 1 for Shadow, 1 for Red and maybe add 1 for a Combined. Having one as a guaranteed drop in the appropriate end reward. I think there would have been less issues all around with this system.

I am also an advocate of removing the Bound to Account Status on Shards/Seals for the Older Epic items. Or at least creating a trade in method similar to the 3 Desert Scroll for 1 Desert Scroll option that is currently available.

[kned225]

We want to farm items and trade. I don't want to do these quests once and done. I WANT to play this game but I want to have a reason to play. Why would I do a quest when it offers me nothing, after I got my item? XP is zero, since I'm capped

If endgamers are only playing in order to acquire, sell and profit, there's a whole big world out there waiting for them where they'll give you REAL MONEY to do this

[Wizza]

There's more to discuss here, but one short thing worth nothing: From our point of view, looking globally, being able to trade loot doesn't result in increased running of quests. For every piece of loot you trade to someone else, that just means you ran the quest more, and someone else ran the quest less (whoever got the loot from you). That's not to say trading is always and inherently undesirable, nor is it inherently desirable.

In summary, "I'll run this quest more if I can trade the loot!" isn't inherently compelling as a reason to make more of the loot in DDO unbound or bind on equip. We do realize this affects different players differently (sellers vs. buyers).

We continue to use a variety of binding in different situations, and sometimes the same situation, and expect that to continue in the future. Occasionally some players believe a single update indicates a new method has been chosen, Now and Forever. This is explicitly not the case for loot binding.

I think your point is a bit flawed. What happens for real is:

Everyone runs the content at some point. A casual player will get the item and the Veteran gets the item. The vet will never go back to that quest because he has no reason to, the casual will have no reason as well because that quest is Lv28 and it doesn't even offer XP for him. He now has an item for all of his alts and the quest dies.

With BtCoE, that quest will be run forever, until the loot gets outdated. The Veteran will always find someone who wants a 2nd item for his alt, a newbie who doesn't like the new quest etc. The casual might join the Veteran group hoping to get lucky and get the item again and make some quick money.

This is exactly what is happening on live with necropolis is dead.

Besides, trading is worth for Turbine as well. Check history of Trade forums. How many TP codes and Otto boxes were sold during the GH time? How many "casuals" bought and spent Astral Shards to buy stuff? Why do we even have a trading forum now, at all, if you think that trading kills your content faster (LOL)? Trading does not kill content, no carrot to run it does.

Trading has always been a huge part of this game. ALWAYS. Remember the times when people farmed PLIS, Bloodstone, Ring of SpellStoring to sell them and become rich? Yeah, I do.

[maddong]

There's more to discuss here, but one short thing worth nothing: From our point of view, looking globally, being able to trade loot doesn't result in increased running of quests. For every piece of loot you trade to someone else, that just means you ran the quest more, and someone else ran the quest less (whoever got the loot from you). That's not to say trading is always and inherently undesirable, nor is it inherently desirable.

In summary, "I'll run this quest more if I can trade the loot!" isn't inherently compelling as a reason to make more of the loot in DDO unbound or bind on equip. We do realize this affects different players differently (sellers vs. buyers).

We continue to use a variety of binding in different situations, and sometimes the same situation, and expect that to continue in the future. Occasionally some players believe a single update indicates a new method has been chosen, Now and Forever. This is explicitly not the case for loot binding.

To me it seems like I see more pickup groups for MOTU/GH/shadowfell (where equipment can be sold) than I do for necro/3bc/fashion madness (where equipment is bound to account).

In the last couple of weeks I have sold 2 optics for 800 shards each and several rings for 100 shards each. So I think that definitely affects what people are running....

[Qhualor]

To me it seems like I see more pickup groups for MOTU/GH/shadowfell (where equipment can be sold) than I do for necro/3bc/fashion madness (where equipment is bound to account).

In the last couple of weeks I have sold 2 optics for 800 shards each and several rings for 100 shards each. So I think that definitely affects what people are running....

I don't doubt that has some affect, but gear from Necro and 3BC is BTA. They were popular in the beginning because nobody had the gear yet. Just running that content 1/2/3 times per life I have most of the gear I want and pass the loot to a character that doesn't have it as they level for past lives. It's common now to see this loot passed in the chest or vendored if nobody wants it. It's even easier to acquire too as the named loot shows up randomly in the chain end reward. I now run those quests primarily for the xp.

Loot from GH, MOTU and Shadowfell can be sold. Those that buy or trade for those items aren't interested in farming quests to sell loot. If they pull an item they can't or won't use it gets put on AH or passed in the chest. These are the kind of players that are also running those quests primarily for the xp. It does make sense to me because I was in the same boat myself when cap was 25. I bought all EE gear I cared about from the plat AH while running mainly EH and the only motivation I had was xp. Some of that loot I can't sell even at 25k.

[Braegan]

I have been vocal in the past over this.

I agree that I wish the binding status was not all BTA loot for many of the reasons in this thread and those I have posted about in the past.

Those are based on my in game experience.

[Sebastrd]

Why, at some point in DDO history, we changed from Unbound or even BtCoE items to BtA items in quests?

Trading has always been a big, big part of every MMORPG. Trading is fundamental to interact with other people, to give a feeling of purpose to questing other than fun or farming for our own items. Trading and selling is that carrot that many endplayers have always wanted and it's not something that I'm making up. We have few historical examples:

EE GH was absolutely fantastic. Items were rare enough and everything was BtCoE. I remember tons of players farming ToR, PoP to sell their items and get some Astral shards or trade them for their wanted items.
EE Stormhorns was amazing as well. People still farm it, after all this time. Same goes for Haunted Halls.

ToEE, for some reason, has some items Unbound and some BtA. I still have not understood what is happening in that quest.

What made you change your mind and make everything BtA? We want to farm items and trade items. Why are you preventing us from doing that? Why can't we have BtCoE items anymore? Once we get our own items, a pack is dead for many players. Look at Necro 4. Noone runs the quests anymore, unless a friend needs an item. The only thing that is run is the Raid. Same goes for 3BC, a pack reduced to XP farm during eTRs.

Speak to us Devs. Let us know. I don't want to do these quests once and done. I WANT to play this game but I want to have a reason to play. Why would I do a quest when it offers me nothing, after I got my item? XP is zero, since I'm capped. Fun factor is always there, I still run HH once in a while because the quest is fun but what makes me run HH even more is the fact that I may or may not loot something and sell it (unless it's the Purple Dragon Shield).

I don't even care about tiered loot at this point, that is obviously not coming back.

Why have you killed trading and selling?

I already don't have enough room between TRs for all of the BtCoE loot I have laying around. As it is I have to make gearing decisions these days based on whether or not I can afford to take up another slot in my TR cache. BtA loot alleviates that problem.

I sympathize with folks that no longer have motivation to repeat quests, because they can't sell the loot anymore. In fact, it bugs me a bit, too. However, I'd never want to go back to the burden that BtCoE places on my inventory space.

Perhaps BtAoE would be a happy medium?

[General_Gronker]

Perhaps it's their way of saying thanks?

Except that the binding was going on before that, so your point isn't.

We continue to use a variety of binding in different situations, and sometimes the same situation, and expect that to continue in the future.

Loot binding is pretty simple, and you guys should be able to handle this:

Is it RAID loot?

YES - bound to character on acquire.
NO - unbound. Period.

Anything else is simply bad design.

[Alternative]

Because if items were tradeable, less premium players would buy the adventure pack, since they can simply trade for items they need.

See, I'm a premium player and I didn't buy fashion madness because there's no single item I'd use, and on top of that I couldn't even make any profit from trading those items. BTA loot, did not buy the pack, not planning too. Possibly the same would happen to the new archon pack it it wasn't for the raid, might depend on price.

[pjw]

Also, in current BtA, you only need 1 item ever. Period.

Not strictly true: I have numerous copies of the same BtA item for convenience. Relogging to get my BTA items would really suck. The exceptions are very low level BtA (eg. the robes from Co6).

It's great to pull some items on a character and know I can use it on another. Also, if I know I already have 1 or 2 spare in the bank, it's a great incentive to offer them to other people on the spot. This is a good social outcome, especially if pugging with newer players.

[Iriale]

I already don't have enough room between TRs for all of the BtCoE loot I have laying around. As it is I have to make gearing decisions these days based on whether or not I can afford to take up another slot in my TR cache. BtA loot alleviates that problem.

I sympathize with folks that no longer have motivation to repeat quests, because they can't sell the loot anymore. In fact, it bugs me a bit, too. However, I'd never want to go back to the burden that BtCoE places on my inventory space.

This.

Storage is a big problem, and i don’t acquire new btc items if they are not awesome (anyways in the last updates the loot have been awful for my toons)

Anyways, devs should think in some solution to the storage problem and the stupid TR cache (who don’t hate the TR cache?). Items bta is only a small band-aid. In a game where grinding gear is one of the main carrots for player permanency, you should not penalize the named gear storage, devs. Create the trophy room or other thing, but give us solutions. But while storage problem is not addressed, sorry, but we need unbound and bta items, bind on acquire or not.

And a note: motu and gianthold quests are more played not for their btcoe loot (that is mostly outdated nowadays, less a few items), if not because these quests are more friendly (low level, faster quests, big xp from sagas) in the epic levelling and the ETR xp grind.

I don’t mind a mix of btc/bta/unbound gear, but with so limited storage, I won’t acquire btc gear that is not awesome. And in this update the loot will be meh. There are things more important than the bind status of items: storage problems and quality of loot. Address these first, after if you want can to do more loot btc.

[Iriale]

Not strictly true: I have numerous copies of the same BtA item for convenience. Relogging to get my BTA items would really suck. The exceptions are very low level BtA (eg. the robes from Co6).

It's great to pull some items on a character and know I can use it on another. Also, if I know I already have 1 or 2 spare in the bank, it's a great incentive to offer them to other people on the spot. This is a good social outcome, especially if pugging with newer players.

+1

[Wizza]

I already don't have enough room between TRs for all of the BtCoE loot I have laying around. As it is I have to make gearing decisions these days based on whether or not I can afford to take up another slot in my TR cache. BtA loot alleviates that problem.

I sympathize with folks that no longer have motivation to repeat quests, because they can't sell the loot anymore. In fact, it bugs me a bit, too. However, I'd never want to go back to the burden that BtCoE places on my inventory space.

Perhaps BtAoE would be a happy medium?

I don't really care if it's BtAoE, BtCoE or unbound, as long as we can sell and trade them.

This.

Storage is a big problem, and i don’t acquire new btc items if they are not awesome (anyways in the last updates the loot have been awful for my toons)

Anyways, devs should think in some solution to the storage problem and the stupid TR cache (who don’t hate the TR cache?). Items bta is only a small band-aid. In a game where grinding gear is one of the main carrots for player permanency, you should not penalize the named gear storage, devs. Create the trophy room or other thing, but give us solutions. But while storage problem is not addressed, sorry, but we need unbound and bta items, bind on acquire or not.

And a note: motu and gianthold quests are more played not for their btcoe loot (that is mostly outdated nowadays, less a few items), if not because these quests are more friendly (low level, faster quests, big xp from sagas) in the epic levelling and the ETR xp grind.

I don’t mind a mix of btc/bta/unbound gear, but with so limited storage, I won’t acquire btc gear that is not awesome. And in this update the loot will be meh. There are things more important than the bind status of items: storage problems and quality of loot. Address these first, after if you want can to do more loot btc.

I absolutely agree that giving us more bank space should be a priority as well but I don't think that it's a good enough reason to not make loot sellable or tradeable.