What is Reaper difficulty?

[blerkington]

It is normal that after making a game easier the pendulum swings back. Let me point out that it is only your impression that an added difficulty is mispent reasources. It is the impression of those of us who have "beat ddo" that we are to be given a challenge. I think it's unfortunate that you don't recognize the need for an untouchable ceiling in the game. It is my deariestest hope that reaper is just stupid difficult.

One of the best things we could do right now is get a server merger and a revitalized endgame. I am in an endgame guild and we have been losing logins since the Madness pack. There is a dirth of low-level content. Fixing the LFM panel population bug would help new players. Let's do that among other things.

Hi,

You seem to be misunderstanding my point, and also making some inaccurate and unflattering assumptions about how I play the game. My main is a completionist/epic completionist and these days I am mostly running EE content.

In other threads I've argued that there isn't much difficulty left for experienced players with good, geared-out characters. Particularly not after the more recent changes with PRR and MRR and the frankly insane approach taken so far to class rebalancing with all of the massive and unnecessary boosts.

The thing is, we already have four difficulties for most quests with not all that much between them. Elite could and should be harder than it is, normal and hard should be further apart than they are. The developers have allowed elite to become the default difficulty at heroic, and it is also becoming that way to an increasingly large extent at epic levels too.

My point is that it's redundant to add another difficulty when we already have four that aren't all that well-balanced. There is also the problems of what incentive there will be to run the quests at this new difficulty; if there is something substantial, there will be complaints that it's too far out of reach for the masses like we had with EE loot from Gianthold, and if it's nothing more than bragging rights there won't be terribly much reason to run it all the time.

Sure, it might be fun to try for a little while, but most likely it will be just a bunch of bloated sacks of HPs that builds which use some of the more broken abilities in the game can get through without much trouble and for any others it's pointlessly difficult. I think you may be overestimating the creativity of the development team when it comes to adding difficulty to the game.

I'd guess we both agree that there should be more challenge left in the upper levels of the game, but there are different ways to do that, and Reaper difficulty does not sound like the right way to me. Spending a lot of development resources on developing a new difficulty for a small segment of the community who may not even end up playing it regularly does seem like a big failure in prioritising to me.

We'll just have to see how it shakes out. But to me it seems like a move from a development team who are unwilling to admit and learn from their previous mistakes and are all out of ideas about how to go forward with the game. Although we will be able to judge the end result for ourselves, we will never know the true opportunity cost it came at in terms of bug fixing, proper class and content rebalancing for the whole game, and genuinely new content.

Thanks.

[IronClan]

Elite is tied to bravery streaks (with bonuses), favor, and other rewards that current players are basing their game play and game time around. The current game demands playing through content for the very first time on elite to get these bonuses as well, thus adding to the expectation that players should be able to complete new content on elite. That's a good thing for many of our players. Making elite even more difficult is not something we want to do at this time.

Sev~

It's hard admitting that the game has problems created by past designs, that due to ingrained behaviors you can't really afford to fix, I appreciate the candor Sev, much respect.

I can get behind a new difficulty setting but I don't want to see the player base thinned out any more than it already is, you know this is going to happen if you add a new difficulty setting that works throughout the level ranges. On the other hand if the new setting is like old Epic; if it's a ML28 to 30 end game setting and has some form of unique carrot, a totally unique prestige system (unlockable achievments?) or cosmetic rewards, and of course drop rates on "Mythic" items that are higher than EE by reasonable amount. Otherwise this just compounds the current problem.

If it's not a end game system it will just thin out an already thin player base, spreading less and less players out along a longer path, raising cap to 30 will also have this effect to a lesser degree, but adding a whole new difficulty will reduce the number of players available for EE groups)

I guess there is a compelling logical argument that getting the "challenge seekers" out of EE's and into "Reaper" (meh on the name IMO, Mythic is more evocative) will make EE harder for the remaining players when/if the ostensibly more skilled challenge seekers are no longer helping.

Still I'd like to see this NOT become a lever that spreads us thinner and makes grouping even less common. Players who are after a challenge arguably do not need this new challenge to happen while TR'ing or ETR'ing, arguably they need challenges that leverage the TR'ing they've already done, that rewards them for progressing their characters.

[IronClan]

snip* never mind, to reduce friction against this new setting I'm going to stay off the hot button topic of risk vs reward.

I'm okay with Reaper giving a higher drop chance if it's an end game setting, and having some sort of bragging rights achievement system like Steam achievements, and some cosmetic rewards that only drop there.

Of course it will only be a matter of time before the entitled generation expects the cosmetics to be given to them as well.

[IronClan]

obviously somebody said something to convince you differently because last I read, there was no interest in creating a new difficulty.

No interest? They were admittedly debating the idea of a Killer DM mode in house and posted that on the forums? I would say they were clearly interested. What they said was that they were not going to do it for the time being. That's pretty different from no interest. In fact more than a few posters around here seemed to take it as a sure sign they would add a new difficulty, and it was only a matter of time (probably just as wrong as no interest).

the primary focus in this game is xp. what is this reaper difficulty going to do to get players to run it enough to make it worth the dev time if the risk of failure increases and slows down progress? the only level range I can see that makes sense is level 30 running quests for mythic items to give cap players something else to do.

I think you answered your own question Reaper difficulty can kill two birds with one stone and can do it in a way that doesn't thin out current XP leveling LFM's

By being cap only it becomes endgame (we need an endgame!) and doesn't dilute leveling LFM's cap only could be level 30 or maybe a little flex 28-30
By having higher drop rates and maybe cosmetics and achievements there's some carrots that don't cheese off the entitled generation

Things to consider or debate the merit of:
1st Edition Champions EVERY MOB (take the crowns away please) especially Boss mobs (at least all bosses should have champ buffs)
Achievements (maybe unlocks even?) pattern after the current monster manuals but give displayable trophies of some sort (visible in Bio)
Instead of having a level minimum allow any Epic level character, but give no XP
No XP or no BB personally I don't want to see anything that enforces a narrow behavior (can't break mah streak to join your raid)
Revamp some old raids that no one plays at level with Reaper mode and Mythic items <- instant wider endgame content just add loot

Discuss.

[Silverleafeon]

Iron usually has very interesting reading.
Granted I don't agree with everything he says, but its worth taking a close look at.

It's hard admitting that the game has problems created by past designs, that due to ingrained behaviors you can't really afford to fix, I appreciate the candor Sev, much respect.

Nods in respect.

I can get behind a new difficulty setting but I don't want to see the player base thinned out any more than it already is, you know this is going to happen if you add a new difficulty setting that works throughout the level ranges.

This is a growing concern of mine as well.

On the other hand if the new setting is like old Epic; if it's a ML28 to 30 end game setting and has some form of unique carrot, a totally unique prestige system (unlockable achievments?) or cosmetic rewards, and of course drop rates on "Mythic" items that are higher than EE by reasonable amount. Otherwise this just compounds the current problem.

Reaper = Old Epics but set 10 levels higher?

There is serious merit to consider there.
Let the "Demi=gods" have someone to toy with.

This would also reset certain quests again, such as going back phase by phase and REAPERing old quests group by group.

Remember the House P on Old Epic, that would renew the game?

If it's not a end game system it will just thin out an already thin player base, spreading less and less players out along a longer path, raising cap to 30 will also have this effect to a lesser degree, but adding a whole new difficulty will reduce the number of players available for EE groups)

I guess there is a compelling logical argument that getting the "challenge seekers" out of EE's and into "Reaper" (meh on the name IMO, Mythic is more evocative) will make EE harder for the remaining players when/if the ostensibly more skilled challenge seekers are no longer helping.

Still I'd like to see this NOT become a lever that spreads us thinner and makes grouping even less common. Players who are after a challenge arguably do not need this new challenge to happen while TR'ing or ETR'ing, arguably they need challenges that leverage the TR'ing they've already done, that rewards them for progressing their characters.

Well said, and certainly a point to consider.
Deserves a +1

snip* never mind, to reduce friction against this new setting I'm going to stay off the hot button topic of risk vs reward.

I'm okay with Reaper giving a higher drop chance if it's an end game setting, and having some sort of bragging rights achievement system like Steam achievements, and some cosmetic rewards that only drop there.

Of course it will only be a matter of time before the entitled generation expects the cosmetics to be given to them as well.

Yes a complex issue.

I think Reaper only at Demi-god end game levels would change the sphere of loot somewhat so the two could be intertwined.

There is a more and more mythic interest and considering the low drop rates, an increased drop rate would be appreciated for those working towards "perfect" gear sets (something TR players often don't worry about)

No interest? They were admittedly debating the idea of a Killer DM mode in house and posted that on the forums? I would say they were clearly interested. What they said was that they were not going to do it for the time being. That's pretty different from no interest. In fact more than a few posters around here seemed to take it as a sure sign they would add a new difficulty, and it was only a matter of time (probably just as wrong as no interest).

I think it slipped thru the code, BUT so did a variation of sentient weapons that is definitely NOT going to be used. Granted we will get some sort of Epic Greensteel (can we call it sentient?).

Its probably being debated by the PC now if not before now, even if only in their threads, but that also is no sigh of definite future.

I think you answered your own question Reaper difficulty can kill two birds with one stone and can do it in a way that doesn't thin out current XP leveling LFM's

By being cap only it becomes endgame (we need an endgame!) and doesn't dilute leveling LFM's cap only could be level 30 or maybe a little flex 28-30
By having higher drop rates and maybe cosmetics and achievements there's some carrots that don't cheese off the entitled generation

Well said, the Devs should definitely consider thus as a possibly route.

Things to consider or debate the merit of:

1st Edition Champions EVERY MOB (take the crowns away please) especially Boss mobs (at least all bosses should have champ buffs)

Aye, I can go with that.

Achievements (maybe unlocks even?) pattern after the current monster manuals but give displayable trophies of some sort (visible in Bio)

Grants past life status symbols ~ in a current or previous life you did Reaper Quest ___ one hundred times?

Instead of having a level minimum allow any Epic level character, but give no XP

Hmm...since its intended for end game and bring your best epic destiny...maybe...not sure on that point.
Granting equal to Elite xp would be fine and not increasing.
Hard to predict where that would lead.
Tending to say "no" on this point, but willing to listen to reason.

No XP or no BB personally I don't want to see anything that enforces a narrow behavior (can't break mah streak to join your raid)

Why not make some sort of system other than Bravery?

Maybe increment your Reaver Streak (which never, ever resets and never, ever grants bonus xp)?
Rename it Reaver Trophy Counter or the like?

Revamp some old raids that no one plays at level with Reaper mode and Mythic items <- instant wider endgame content just add loot

Great theory.
I'm all over that one, even with just cosmetics.

Discuss.

Pleasure reading as always.

[Qhualor]

No interest? They were admittedly debating the idea of a Killer DM mode in house and posted that on the forums? I would say they were clearly interested. What they said was that they were not going to do it for the time being. That's pretty different from no interest. In fact more than a few posters around here seemed to take it as a sure sign they would add a new difficulty, and it was only a matter of time (probably just as wrong as no interest).



I think you answered your own question Reaper difficulty can kill two birds with one stone and can do it in a way that doesn't thin out current XP leveling LFM's

By being cap only it becomes endgame (we need an endgame!) and doesn't dilute leveling LFM's cap only could be level 30 or maybe a little flex 28-30
By having higher drop rates and maybe cosmetics and achievements there's some carrots that don't cheese off the entitled generation

Things to consider or debate the merit of:
1st Edition Champions EVERY MOB (take the crowns away please) especially Boss mobs (at least all bosses should have champ buffs)
Achievements (maybe unlocks even?) pattern after the current monster manuals but give displayable trophies of some sort (visible in Bio)
Instead of having a level minimum allow any Epic level character, but give no XP
No XP or no BB personally I don't want to see anything that enforces a narrow behavior (can't break mah streak to join your raid)
Revamp some old raids that no one plays at level with Reaper mode and Mythic items <- instant wider endgame content just add loot

Discuss.

I know there is a sub-section of players that want even *more* difficulty in existing content. We have to make decisions about where to spend our time, and we think our time would be better spent making new challenging content with new Mythic treasures to reward those challenges than trying to back track and introduce difficulty where a lot of players don't want it.

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

you were all up and down the same thread. sometimes our memories can be fuzzy. I can understand that.

I am read only now btw so consider any posts I make from now on will be a rare thing. I have had enough dancing on these forums.

[Silverleafeon]

I can also see the merits of a system with Reaper added to each quest thru out heroics and epics to challenge players.

However, a player can attempt Elite with a lower level toon (which should reward with better loot and xp usually) to challenge themselves.

This is not possible at level cap as Toon Level = Quest Level (more or less) and higher quests are not available.

However, to take full advantage of allowing players to challenge quests with lower level toons, the Devs would need to consider changing the following:

Power-leveling penalty: (individual) If you are exactly 4 levels below the highest-level character in the party, you receive a -50% penalty. If you are 5 levels below, you receive a -75% penalty. If you are 6 levels below, you receive a -99% penalty. If you are 7 or more levels below, you receive no XP regardless of bonuses. Characters that are level 20 or higher do not receive a power-level penalty, even when grouped with level 28 characters (verified: level 20 had no penalty with a 28 in quest).


into thus

Power-leveling penalty: (individual) If you are 5 levels below, you receive a -75% penalty. If you are 6 levels below, you receive a -99% penalty. If you are 7 or more levels below, you receive no XP regardless of bonuses. Characters that are level 20 or higher do not receive a power-level penalty, even when grouped with level 28 characters (verified: level 20 had no penalty with a 28 in quest).



I feel that will increase grouping a great deal with very little change to coding or abuse in all levels of difficulty.

[DANTEIL]

Just a small but possibly relevant data point:

When I looked at this on Lamannia, the message about "Reaper Difficulty" regarding the Bravery Bonus was not just limited to endgame content (e.g., the new quests and ToEE, for instance). I checked on a smattering of Marketplace quests, and they all had the same message. Obviously this is subject to change and refinement, (if it happens at all), but this suggests that Reaper is not going to be a Level 30-only concern. This also suggests that any implementation would be 'wholesale' (like going from Hard to Elite) such as "make all monsters Champions" or "add blanket buffs/immunities" or "3x trap damage."

I don't know why I care since I am not an EE player at all. I just think it's interesting to see them try to something to challenge the more expert players, and I hope it succeeds. For this purpose, I actually like the idea of Reaper difficulty (whatever it is) better than the Champions, especially if it turns out to be something extra and optional (i.e., that I can ignore) that provides non-essential rewards (e.g., along the lines of Remnants or cosmetics).

[Silverleafeon]

Just a small but possibly relevant data point:

When I looked at this on Lamannia, the message about "Reaper Difficulty" regarding the Bravery Bonus was not just limited to endgame content (e.g., the new quests and ToEE, for instance). I checked on a smattering of Marketplace quests, and they all had the same message. Obviously this is subject to change and refinement, (if it happens at all), but this suggests that Reaper is not going to be a Level 30-only concern. This also suggests that any implementation would be 'wholesale' (like going from Hard to Elite) such as "make all monsters Champions" or "add blanket buffs/immunities" or "3x trap damage."

I don't know why I care since I am not an EE player at all. I just think it's interesting to see them try to something to challenge the more expert players, and I hope it succeeds. For this purpose, I actually like the idea of Reaper difficulty (whatever it is) better than the Champions, especially if it turns out to be something extra and optional (i.e., that I can ignore) that provides non-essential rewards (e.g., along the lines of Remnants or cosmetics).

Thank you for checking this ok.

It took me a full day to download Lamania, and did some of the quests there before it was taken down.

Opinion ~ we probably need a new difficulty level.

Needs a great deal of thought, which is why this thread which is obviously going to be read and studied in detail and discussed is important.



Applying over every difficulty has its advantages due to easy coding.

Use raid rules ~ no scaling, no hires, no summoning shrines.

Use damage curves already in place adjusting as desired.

+XX% of treasure chests are mimics.

+XX% of monsters are champions.

Use loot table curves already in place adjusting as desired.

Use monster CR rating curves already in place adjusting as desired.

Use existing bravery system.


Optional ~ wandering traps, exploding shrines, entire floor doing X type ___ damage per tick, etc...

[Silverleafeon]

I know there is a sub-section of players that want even *more* difficulty in existing content. We have to make decisions about where to spend our time, and we think our time would be better spent making new challenging content with new Mythic treasures to reward those challenges than trying to back track and introduce difficulty where a lot of players don't want it.

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

OH, I missed this one.

Which comes back to Iron's proposal ~ Reaper becomes the new old Epic if anything.


But this post is like 4 months old...so does the invention of mimics and champions change perspective?

"Best use of our time" ~ going to take a lot less time to convert now.
However...

[noinfo]

Epic gear was also ML20 which made it pointless to have for many. Basically, that epic gear was, for the most part, only really useful to play epics with. While it could be used in other content one plays while capped at the time, the amount of grind to get it compared to the amount of other use one could get out of it made it rather inefficient to do so.

It wasn't just that either. The old epics had their flaws as well.

They invalidated many strong Heroic builds due to breaking established rules. These rules were relaxed later but being hit every swing on a character with AC that could tank Horoth by a pirate? Being originally relegated to cc only on a wizard? Epics offered a lot back then but they were far from perfect.

[Xionanx]

Elite is tied to bravery streaks (with bonuses), favor, and other rewards that current players are basing their game play and game time around. The current game demands playing through content for the very first time on elite to get these bonuses as well, thus adding to the expectation that players should be able to complete new content on elite. That's a good thing for many of our players. Making elite even more difficult is not something we want to do at this time.

Sev~

I find this statement mind boggling; if true, this statement implies that "Elite" is the "Expected Difficulty" that people are running on.. Basically, that mean ELITE is the NEW NORMAL.

If people are expected to do Elite their first time through the game.. and the reasoning for expecting players to do that is because Favor and XP are tied to elite..

Wouldn't it make sense to simply offer the same XP and Favor for running the quests, REGARDLESS OF DIFFICULTY, and then make "Hard and Elite" actually harder for players who want more challenge.

That way, the expectation becomes players will run "Normal" for XP and Favor, and then run Hard and Elite to challenge themselves.. which to me makes a lot more sense then offering Hard/Normal/Casual and then expecting players not to run Hard/Normal/Casual.

[noinfo]

Just have it turn off Dugeon Scaling, higher chance of spawning champion mobs (those who have asked for bosses to be champions, sure, on the day that red names can be attacked by tactics and dc based casters)

If you want to increase difficulty further without inflation. Look at the real cause. It is NOT prr and mrr. Its the ease of healing in the game.

Either add stacking debuffs or cumulative cool downs on healing spells, everything is based on spike damage being able to kill someone rather than war by attrition and is one of the reasons tank builds are not as effective as they could be.

[old-school]

No interest? They were admittedly debating the idea of a Killer DM mode in house and posted that on the forums? I would say they were clearly interested. What they said was that they were not going to do it for the time being. That's pretty different from no interest. In fact more than a few posters around here seemed to take it as a sure sign they would add a new difficulty, and it was only a matter of time (probably just as wrong as no interest).

I am with those who thought this matter had been reviewed and discarded, based mainly on dev quotes such as this one (emphasis is mine):

Quote Originally Posted by Severlin:
I know there is a sub-section of players that want even *more* difficulty in existing content. We have to make decisions about where to spend our time, and we think our time would be better spent making new challenging content with new Mythic treasures to reward those challenges than trying to back track and introduce difficulty where a lot of players don't want it.

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

So, either the data has changes, or a very influential (and very small - see above) subset of players has changed Severlin's mind on this issue. We may never know for sure.

[Vulkoorex]

I find this statement mind boggling; if true, this statement implies that "Elite" is the "Expected Difficulty" that people are running on.. Basically, that mean ELITE is the NEW NORMAL.

If people are expected to do Elite their first time through the game.. and the reasoning for expecting players to do that is because Favor and XP are tied to elite..

Wouldn't it make sense to simply offer the same XP and Favor for running the quests, REGARDLESS OF DIFFICULTY, and then make "Hard and Elite" actually harder for players who want more challenge.

That way, the expectation becomes players will run "Normal" for XP and Favor, and then run Hard and Elite to challenge themselves.. which to me makes a lot more sense then offering Hard/Normal/Casual and then expecting players not to run Hard/Normal/Casual.

This will never happen as those who wanted more of a challenge have repeatedly stated they want more xp and loot for running a higher difficulty. So in the end, they want it all.

[Postumus]

Quote Originally Posted by Severlin:


We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

And yet the new raid has already been beaten on EE by 6 person groups in 25 mins or less, and soloed by others and it hasn't even hit live yet. That is not consistent with the final sentence in that quote.

[GeoffWatson]

And yet the new raid has already been beaten on EE by 6 person groups in 25 mins or less, and soloed by others and it hasn't even hit live yet. That is not consistent with the final sentence in that quote.

There are bugs that make it easier than it should be (eg blades doing less damage than on EN). They might get fixed before it hits live.

[Azarddoze]

Umm, so what? Because someone invests too much importance in what is a pointless game then they are somehow entitled
to more than someone who does not? Turbine only cares about that person if they are also spending $$ in the store.


Again, so what? why worry so much about what other people are doing?. If you're saying that
they've made the game too easy to cater for 'these people' (I've no idea who this group of people
are supposed to be, I've never encountered any) and this is affecting you, then I think that's the
problem that we're talking about solving in this new difficulty thread. If you're also saying you want
better gear (i.e. the return to tiered loot) for doing it then I think that's a totally different
thing and effectively equates to asking for a different reward level.

Tiered loot, IMO, is divisive and not healthy. I think if you are going to separate loot out by difficulty
then it needs to be done by drop rates and subtle changes (i.e. green slot instead of yellow etc.). I've
no problem with so called 'better' players getting access to loot faster - which tends to happen anyway.

You talk about entitlement from a position of entitlement.

If this was all true and you (not you... but more casual players) were not entitled to anything, you wouldn't even be part of this discussion as it doesn't concern you at all.

The very basic behind a challenging difficulty is fun (a proper player vs environment suited to a wider kind of players). And no, you cannot treat MMO just like if they were any single player game because they are not and the audience playing isn't quite the same. Their motivations to dedicate tons of hours on a e-character in a RPG is something to be considered. The omnipresent social aspect (comparison) is the very reason why this casual-hardcore war exists in the first place. It comes from both side.

There's not much to add to this neverending debate but know that most hardcore players don't give a **** about 75% (random number) of the features that the casual players may enjoy regularly, yet they don't try to dictacte how those parts of the game should be crafted. Better loot is just like that. it's a feature that is part of the progression available to players and it only offers MORE options (+/- content) and more motivations to keep climbing through that progression.

Finally, I get that people can get discouraged when they cannot get their hand on something that others can. I also understand that this is all tied to financial decisions and that Turbine does what best in that sense. Still, it is stupid to be restrained on fun because of people complaining about something that wasn't made for them.

I know many players that play games only until they faceroll it / find it too easy. Then they move on. Challenge has it's audience.


Edit: Even though it might bring me back, i'm also on the side of those who think it is far too late (for a couple reasons) to introduce a new difficulty once that the player base has disminished too much.

[knockcocker]

If this was all true and you (not you... but more casual players) were not entitled to anything, you wouldn't even be part of this discussion as it doesn't concern you at all.

What point are you making here? Who gets to decide who has a concern and who does not?

The very basic behind a challenging difficulty is fun (a proper player vs environment suited to a wider kind of players). And no, you cannot treat MMO just like if they were any single player game because they are not and the audience playing isn't quite the same. Their motivations to dedicate tons of hours on a e-character in a RPG is something to be considered. The omnipresent social aspect (comparison) is the very reason why this casual-hardcore war exists in the first place. It comes from both side.

I somewhat agree hence the reason why I generally argue that the game should not intrinsically support such
divisions. I believe that's best left in the hands of the players - who they do and not want to play with.

I certainly agree on your point about difficulty/challenge and fun. I don't necessarily agree that MMOs
should be any different to single player games wrt. rewards. I'm not arguing for no reward; I'm averse
to adding yet more power creep and do not want to see a return to tiered loot.

There's not much to add to this neverending debate but know that most hardcore players don't give a **** about 75% (random number) of the features that the casual players may enjoy regularly, yet they don't try to dictacte how those parts of the game should be crafted. Better loot is just like that. it's a feature that is part of the progression available to players and it only offers MORE options (+/- content) and more motivations to keep climbing through that progression.

Hardcore players are just as bad as the oft derided 'casual' player with their demands for how
the game should be changed to accommodate them. To think that the casual player is not
affected by this is naive. In any case, I really don't want to see any one playstyle prioritized
over another. I believe it should be possible to accommodate all - which is why I'm even
bothering to comment at all. I can totally sympathize with players who want a more
challenging option and I am hoping that Reaper difficultly - should it ever see the light of day -
is it. However, I believe that discussion should be decoupled from reward.

It's a difficult job. How do you challenge the triple heroic, triple epic completionist - they've
done everything available to them to make the game easier for themselves. It seems wrong
to have any sort of content exclusively for them doesn't it?. I think a first life, 28 point
character given appropriate EDs and gear should be able to complete all the content in the
game. Past lives should not be a requirement. The only things I can think of/support are:

1) Putting difficultly into the hands of the players. Give the quest entrance an 'advanced'
tab which allows customization of dungeon properties (i.e. trap damage scaling (100% ->
fatal), mob spawn scaling, damage scaling, champion scaling etc.). Harder dungeons
have better drop rates and a higher loot level.

2) Add in a difficulty equivalent to the old Epic which is endgame and can be played at
level cap only. You can make this just like the old epic as far as I'm concerned.

Finally, I get that people can get discouraged when they cannot get their hand on something that others can. I also understand that this is all tied to financial decisions and that Turbine does what best in that sense. Still, it is stupid to be restrained on fun because of people complaining about something that wasn't made for them.

I know many players that play games only until they faceroll it / find it too easy. Then they move on. Challenge has it's audience.

See above. It's the non-sequitur of 'the game is too easy but if you make it harder then you better reward
me for doing so' that makes no sense to me. If the game is not fun because it's too easy but also won't
be fun if it's harder then perhaps the game's just no longer fun?

[legendkilleroll]

It's a difficult job. How do you challenge the triple heroic, triple epic completionist - they've
done everything available to them to make the game easier for themselves. It seems wrong
to have any sort of content exclusively for them doesn't it?. I think a first life, 28 point
character given appropriate EDs and gear should be able to complete all the content in the
game. Past lives should not be a requirement.



See above. It's the non-sequitur of 'the game is too easy but if you make it harder then you better reward
me for doing so' that makes no sense to me. If the game is not fun because it's too easy but also won't
be fun if it's harder then perhaps the game's just no longer fun?

PL's arnt a requirement, its not just triple heroic/epic completionist that are finding no challenge

I dont like how people who have no desire to improve or to play hard content in order to get the best rewards are putting themselves in the same category as casuals or new players, its unlikely that a guy who plays the game 1-2h per week is steamrolling elite with multiple pieces of raid gear and every PL, also pretty sure these players arnt expecting new released end game content to be a walk in the park so please people like yourself and others who spend more time posting on forums than the real casual/newplayers do ingame stop putting yourself in the same category as them, your not!