U27 Loot thread (unofficial)

[HuneyMunster]

Theres not a single reason for me to run any of these quests or raid in terms of loot on either my assassin or my air savant. Maybe the gloves for my savant incase I would use them someday, but unlikely I want to run the raid 20 times for them.

[Wizza]

^this

It's +2 to Illusion, same as +2 Enchantment.

[IronClan]

Yes. PM's are focussed necro specific casters, Archmage can be good at whatever spec they want.
besides, what class would want their primary stat item to give them 21% less incoming healing from all sources.

Actually Pale Masters are the best generalist casters due to the INT advantage they get over any other flavor of wizard you might make, Archmages can be good at any one out of 2 or 3 much less powerful schools with poor spell selection and terrible Epic scaling of the utility of most their SLA's... Oh and rubbish T5 abilities like Arcane Supremacy which pops up at random, for a very brief moment or two (enough time to cast a couple spells) but usually proc's when the last couple mobs die, thus running out while you are on your way to the next set of mobs, before you can cast anything at all.

[Edit] just realized that's not what you meant when you mention Archmages but the point stands, Archmages can be good at schools that don't matter nearly as much and that are less powerful. It's a **** shame that the best generalist wizard in DDO is a Pale Master when they also get to be the best insta killers in the game.

[Shoemaker]

For epic items... lose the infinitesimal +2 obscure bonus to reflex/skill.

Biggest offenders are Insightful bonuses to a single saving throw. If someone cares about saving throw, they are going to slot Parrying / Riposte, which goes up to +6 and affects all saves.

I am not persuaded we need all the new confusing bonuses. Seriously, it's a lot of work to maintain all the templates and categories on DDOwiki to keep with obscure stuff like this. And for what? +2 to MRR?

Some ideas:
* remove determination/quality reflex save, reuse exceptional reflex from omniscience, or make it straight +15 reflex item
* remove insightful heal +2, add exceptional wisdom skills +6
* remove insightful saves, those can probably get you arrested in most states
* remove +2 obscure MRR. perhaps replace with +25 MRR with the same bonus type as remnants cloak

I saw your attempt to add the new types to the templates on the wiki. I will be going through at some point and cleaning those templates up to trim redundant code and try to streamline them. I have no worries about keeping up and updating wiki templates, and I honestly like the idea of having multiple stackable types for some things. I do agree most of the ones here are too small to provide any real benefit, but perhaps that will change.

[fmalfeas]

Th forged are better id say but its suberb item for avatar monks imo.
I know i want it

TF at T3 may be better. Possibly at T2. But this isn't a set of raid handwraps. It's BTA, which means it's a quest item. For a completely non-raid set of wraps, it's absolutely amazing. And the only *completely* non-raid TF stuff (because even the tradeable scales had to come out of a raid to begin with) are T0 and T1. So comparisons between quest weapons and TF should legitimately stop there.

[IronClan]

- Eloquence (Helmet): Linguistics 10% (This item reduces the cooldowns of your Socal skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate) by 10%. This does not stack with the Negotiator ability.), Bluff +20, Intimidate +20, Good Luck +3, Seeker XII, Green Augment Slot

What's the point of Seeker here? This is a purely skill Helmet, how about some stacking Skill bonuses? +4 Determination Skill bonus

- Pendant of Quiet Movements (Necklace): Lesser Displacement, Dodge +11%, Insightful Will Save +2, Seeker XII, Yellow Augment Slot

I like Seeker on a Necklace but it doesn't fit thematically and mechanically imho.

Honestly I like 12 seeker and I'd like there to be more than 1 way to obtain it.

I like some flexibility in loot and none of those items offend me or feel underpowered of course I have many alts and play a variety of builds so my viewpoint reflects that.

IMO some people just want to find things to criticize because that's the mood they're in at the time or the temperament they have in general. People who never do anything but find fault are just as bad as people who never see any faults IMO. Personally I don't see a lot wrong with this loot in general it reminds me of eOrchard loot in many ways: there's lots of loot and it's got flexibility and utility to many possible build types. I can and will nit pick some of it, the Greataxe is sad for example. The Staff is rubbish clearly inferior to epic bloom, The Tower Shield is missing its +[W] making it woefully under powered. The Khopesh could be some other weapon type, it's not like the game needs to cater to the strongest melee weapon type any more than it already does. Make it a Dwarven Axe or something that makes a poor Thunderforged weapon like a Battleaxe or Warhammer.

Now all that said to Steel: have you considered making some items that regress in affix numbers in favor of having 1 REALLY kick ass affix?

If you made a simple necklace with 30 seeker on it and an augment slot I think it would make an interesting item... because you're trading 3, 4 or even 5 affixes for one very potent affix that never appears in that quantity. Exceptional Combat Mastery 10 appearing on a ML26 item with no other affix might be an example.

Other examples:
Deadly in a really large number
+5 Insightful stat
+3 profane bonus to a specific stat with no taint of evil
19-20X1 critical multiplier that stacks with all other sources
Sovereign Vorpal on a wearable item
40 heal amp and 20 heal amp on the same item

These are affixes that I suspect most people would seek out even if they appeared "naked"

[Steelstar]

Now all that said to Steel: have you considered making some items that regress in affix number in favor of having 1 REALLY kick ass affix?

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

[slarden]

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

I liked many of those items, it was the random loot that seemed a bit weak to me with a few exceptions. Also, while he heroic items had the better stat - it was not the case on epic items. it had the same/less than random loot, but I still use some of the epic end reward items on alts.

[legendkilleroll]

Steel you said all items can come in mythic form, what mythic properties are on these items? +2 melee/ranged power, +2 PRR/MRR or something else?

[HatsuharuZ]

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

Personally, I both love and hate the Wheloon loot.

I love having +8 to stats on ML15 loot, but...

I hate how any of them either have only one affix or random affixes, and how the ones with only one affix keep me from equipping loot with multiple affixes in the same slot. Oh, and waaay too much randomness. Or perhaps it would be better to say each item had too many variations. With so many variations I would have rather had yet another crafting interface where a player could choose which effect they wanted.

[Wizza]

Honestly I like 12 seeker and I'd like there to be more than 1 way to obtain it.

I like some flexibility in loot and none of those items offend me or feel underpowered of course I have many alts and play a variety of builds so my viewpoint reflects that.

IMO some people just want to find things to criticize because that's the mood they're in at the time or the temperament they have in general. People who never do anything but find fault are just as bad as people who never see any faults IMO. Personally I don't see a lot wrong with this loot in general it reminds me of eOrchard loot in many ways: there's lots of loot and it's got flexibility and utility to many possible build types. I can and will nit pick some of it, the Greataxe is sad for example. The Staff is rubbish clearly inferior to epic bloom, The Tower Shield is missing its +[W] making it woefully under powered. The Khopesh could be some other weapon type, it's not like the game needs to cater to the strongest melee weapon type any more than it already does. Make it a Dwarven Axe or something that makes a poor Thunderforged weapon like a Battleaxe or Warhammer.

You can think that, I don't have any issues with you having your own ideas. But you should keep it to yourself, since it does not reflect reality and it is just your point of view.

I criticize the items because I feel they should be criticized, not because "I have temperament" in general. Loot so far has been underwhelming. I like exactly two piece of loot from here and it's pretty much the general opinion: the Caster gloves and the Druidic cloak. Every other item needs some minor tweaks, while some of them needs some major overhaul.

You can still not like my opinion but please refrain from personal attacks. Leave your opinion as I leave mine. I have every right to criticize stuff if my critics make sense (and they do). They may not for you and that's cool, it's your opinion.

[voodoogroves]

Personally, I both love and hate the Wheloon loot.

I love having +8 to stats on ML15 loot, but...

I hate how any of them either have only one affix or random affixes, and how the ones with only one affix keep me from equipping loot with multiple affixes in the same slot. Oh, and waaay too much randomness. Or perhaps it would be better to say each item had too many variations. With so many variations I would have rather had yet another crafting interface where a player could choose which effect they wanted.

this

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

It's hell on gear planning, and frankly for the mid-range loot you're only looking at drive-by usefulness.

Unless it's a unique effect, you'll find folks approach gear a bit differently. Often you have ONE prime thing you're trying to do - and if it fits that, you build the rest of your gear around it. After that, most folks look for better stacking. Two stats at +6 vs one at +8 at those levels ... people are only likely to take the 8 if they are a one-stat build.

If they had a slot, you'd see them get more use even if people were shoving a +4 or +5 stat or a ML16 yellow/whatever in them - and then they'd be too strong.

I don't like the Wheloon loot - but I do consider it for lives as a one-stat caster.

I hear you on the ML15 +8 stat stuff ... and would tell you that's a great thing to stick to your guns on - it doesn't bother me at all that you hold that line. I am a bit irked that something like the Glacial Assault set (I know, it's old) takes 3 pieces but the benefit for cold spell power for having all 3 is LESS SPELL POWER than the sov. Glaciation rune.

That's the kinda pass I'd like to see on some loot - make some items "chase" items, and sets are great to chase in that it drives real gear-choice-decisions .. but they have to be worth it.

[Blackheartox]

Steel you said all items can come in mythic form, what mythic properties are on these items? +2 melee/ranged power, +2 PRR/MRR or something else?

Yes this is what im interested as well in.
Example, if i get raid boots with 12 str that are "mythic" what would those boots get? 2 prr/mrr? or 2 melle/ranged power?
How is the distribution of melle/ranged prr/mrr going to be on loot pieces?
Only weapons get melle/ranged and all accesories and shields prr/mrr?
Or different?

[HatsuharuZ]

Hmm... a +4 Insightful Wisdom item would be very attractive~

[Seikojin]

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

For me, I tend to think of it like so:
Lootgen ML X has a chance for a set of properties. If it has one, then it can have something like ML 15 stat +8. If it has 2 Stat +6 or 5 and other ability. So on.

Named items should be lootgen +2 or 3. So it would be the same as a ML item of X+2 or X+3. Which allows a higher stat boost. Plus a bonus flavor thing for the named item.

Guaranteed items (like named items in end rewards every time), should be ML X+1 or 2 instead of +2 or 3. Mainly because you have to run the quest to get to it.

[IronClan]

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

You mean like Dragon Helms with +3 insightful stat are unwanted? Hmmm that data point doesn't gibe...

How objective is the "players hated that" opinion polling? I don't remember a survey on the subject? It's really hard to say whats "hated by the players" versus whats "polarized a few players into shouting loudly". Personally I just remember the same dozen people posting the same things over and over like normal on the forums. Just like I remember the same sort of thing scaring you guys into not using randomness or variations on a theme within loot. It's sad but GH Dragon Helms (which follow both the "hated" variations on a theme for the same item AND the "hated" one big affix concept but somehow are still sellable for over 100 shards) were tremendously successful loot and they fit what I am talking about to a T.

As I recall Shadowfell loot was disliked because you guys obsoleted the previous packs loot instantly (Random Deadly > EE Dream visor) not because there was a +8 INT item you could get at 15th level or a 40hp ML15 item (great item BTW). I think you guys are conflating a few people who chronically complain about the "powercreep" (AKA keeping the game from becoming static) who dislike ANYTHING that increases power at any level, with the larger amount of people who thought the loot was poorly designed because random stuff was suddenly better than named EE items.

I don't see you guys polling or doing surveys so you guys appear to be using VERY subjective non empirical data. Sev did exactly the same thing recently when he said that players like collecting BB streak numbers, even though this system has become harmful to the game... Is the number of people who love collecting steak numbers large enough to keep a system that is harmful to grouping behavour? I didn't see a survey there either.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i will be getting the helm and boots from the raid, for the 6 melee power.

im assuming that 6 melee power is clearly ahead of 3 seeker in dps, otherwise i would not want anything from this loot preview.

id be giving up a lot of convenience besides that 3 seeker as well though. losing free hamstring proc and perma nondispellable gh (pure fighter, so 19% asf gets annoying at times), permahaste, as well as 3 stun dc are really aggravating.

[dunklezhan]

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

Those items from Stormhorns: I for one really really like them. I always take them. Thus far... I have never, ever used them. Not once. They're sat in my bank waiting for me to go past on a life where I'm not already wearing something that is just worth forgoing the extra 1 or 2 stat points because of the other effects I'm getting - and often the stuff in question is random lootgen. They're too awesome to pass up, and utterly useless at the same time.

So I agree, don't repeat that!

Interesting additional effects are far better. For me named loot should be based on the 'ideal lootgen' item for that level for the purpose you devs intend, and then add more stuff to it, especially stuff that you would normally only find in a different slot. So take say you want a golem beater, you take a Forceful (whatever number) Adamantine [weapon] of Contstruct Bane (whatever level)... and then add PRR to it (ideally vs constructs only). Or something brand new like a hypnotism clickie that only works on constructs.

I also don't mind loot with different MLs, I liked different loot dropping on normal/hard/elite. I felt that was fair and gave me the rewards I deserved for the content I ran, and made me better equipped to try for the next difficulty up.

I hate the scroll/seal/shard system - but less than I used to. Since you've upped the drop rates, I find myself actually seriously considering looking to acquire the rest of the pieces I need if something.

Anyway, specific examples of named loot design I really liked (even ignoring upgrade options): Madness chain loot. Updated 3BC loot. Its all interesting and flavoursome. In some cases its very powerful for its level for a certain range of builds, but certainly not for all builds. That's a really good thing in my view as it encourages running different content depending on what loot is right for you, assuming other quests at that level have similarly cool loot for the right builds.

Incidentally, I also like the look of the new loot in this thread for the most part. Featherfall clickie is gravy and concerns are total red herring. There's no reason to remove it so don't waste the time. Flavour is good.

[Augon]

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

I have yet to meet a player in the game that hates those items. Some of my guildies and I work at having all the Skirmisher, Sage, Guardian items and then using what makes sense in a given life.

I fear that some of the whiners and complainers on the forums are being mis-interpretted as speaking for the majority of the player base.

I seriously feel a new Poll mechanism needs to be added to the game (not the forum - in game) so you can ask simple questions of the player base in general to actually get some more reliable feedback.

Perhaps add it to the daily roll. Allow folks an extra gold roll if they answer 5 polling questions - limited to doing this once a week or so. Or maybe not even have it on a schedule - just do it when you have questions you want an answer to.

[Qhualor]

We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15, it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

Good reason to do an item pass than. Yeah I know it's probably not in the cards even though it has been done back in the FotS days and Reign of Madness end chain rewards. With rewards like Wheloon and Stormhorns out there it does affect how players approach obtaining them and the desire of new loot as it is compared to existing loot. It's going to be a tough sell trying to introduce what you consider balanced items when you can get better or just as good somewhere else. As I said before, I have little to no interest with the new heroic loot when I already have just as good or better same ML or lower, especially since my gear set up changes every couple levels.