Upcoming Experience Changes

[Thalmor]

This is a good change!

Why events? IMO there should be should be a permanent bonus.

I'm no expert, but they can probably track it through a few events and see if it actually makes a difference in grouping and if it does then they can make it a permanent (Hopefully).

[Saekee]

Firstly on the no deaths bonus. This is basically irrelevant when elite streaking. The difference between 320% of base XP and 330% is 3.125%.

But a lot of people don't understand it, and think it's the difference between 320% base and 1.1*320 = 352% base. Those people will feel better for the change; me, I will continue not caring.


This change misses the whole point of why grouping is unattractive in DDO, even to people like me that strongly prefer grouping, and that is dungeon scaling. Compared to solo, adding a random player results in mobs and traps doing ~40% more damage, having ~30% more HP, and having better saves. Assuming you are a solid player (i.e. capable of elite streak soloing to 16 or 17 at a decent pace), you need an above average player to make up for the additional difficulty.

If you really want to encourage grouping, remove scaling entirely, then adjust Casual difficulty to be the same as it would be now with only 1 player in the dungeon. Set Normal to be what it would be now with 1 player plus 1 hireling. Hard scale to 3 players, and Elite to 6. Then, if five people want to go and run Waterworks on Normal, let them just stomp it.

Before scaling, adding a known mediocre to bad player always made your group stronger (unless they were actually trolling or sabotaging the run). Post scaling, adding a known mediocre player is usually neutral at best, detrimental at worst.


A final point. Early in DDO voice chat was used in most groups. Now it isn't. Voice makes a huge difference in giving the tips needed to turn a mediocre player into a solid one.

+1

[Fedora1]

I think these changes are okay and might help with lfm's.

However, I will say that it won't cover a lot of reasons people solo.

1. Limited time. The last few days I have logged on and looked for lfm's running content at my level. I'll kill a few minutes browsing the AH waiting and finally decide to put my own up. I'll wait another few minutes and start the quest. End up running the whole quest with no joiners.

2. Quests already in progress. I might see an lfm up for a quest I want to run, but it's already 5-10 minutes in progress. I know that for many quests by the time I hit the lfm, hop on the ship to get to the quest area (let's say GH or Amrath or 3BC or Vale or Orchard) and run through the wilderness to the quest entry, if the quest isn't already over it will be so close that I end up taking a 75% xp penalty.

3. Even when grouping (in PUGs) it is more like 4-6 people soloing through a quest. There is no teamwork (many times because no teamwork is really needed), little to zero conversation (voice or text) and it's basically a race from the entry to the end boss/chest then a quick "ty all for the party" as everyone exits and leaves the party. The only advantage is a quick completion, but it was much less fun or immersive and felt more like an arcade game that an old PnP game.

I don't have any answers for the above, except perhaps a big marketing campaign to double or triple the number of players in the game, or (as I have done several times in the past) starting a static group. The only problem with a static group tends to be scheduling conflicts among the members.

[Kwyjibo]

It's a rarity that I will read an entire thread, well a thread greater than just a few pages, and then comment...but it seems to me that this is a wasted effort.

Generally, people that want to PuG and help others and enjoy the teamwork aspect of the game, will continue to do so, regardless of any xp bonus.
Generally, people that don't want to PuG and enjoy the company of only themselves or a few friends, will continue to do so, regardless of any xp bonus.

Until DA and DS are removed and/or reworked, I'm not convinced that any bonus xp for grouping will encourage those folks that already don't group, to do so.

None of these changes will affect me or those I run with.

[MorteCerta]

Im glad to see this changes, not only will encourage groups but it will also make the game more friendly for new player.

[davmuzl]

Making the flawless victory a personal thing also means that people who run past everything leaving the mobs for the rest of the group don't get punished when they cause DA.

The thing is that people don't care so much about others ruining their flawless victory. The problem with pugs is that half the time it's one person carrying the rest. And at that point the person doing all the work might aswell run alone, because of the dungeon scaling.

[JOTMON]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

~good to see

~meh.. henchmen should be the responsibility of the person who summoned them.. don't like it.. invite a real person...

~meh.. there are sometimes issues with Bravery Bonus so I can see it for that aspect.. but isn't the point of Bravery Bonus to stay Elite and not run other stuff until you have at least run it elite once before...

~Full party bonus.. would like to see this full time not just for "special" events...

~Raid Bonus.. meh.. who cares.. raids are supposed to be about challenge and named loot not xp running.. players should already be in their best destiny and appropriate level..especially endgame raids.. (Von5 excluded .. that is definitely an XP pre-raid)..


Something I still want to see changed..
~Dungeon Scaling.. remove this at least from Elite.

Making the flawless victory a personal thing also means that people who run past everything leaving the mobs for the rest of the group don't get punished when they cause DA.

The thing is that people don't care so much about others ruining their flawless victory. The problem with pugs is that half the time it's one person carrying the rest. And at that point the person doing all the work might aswell run alone, because of the dungeon scaling.

Something like bravery bonus.. Flawless deaths bonus streak... Personal based .. the more quests you run without dying the better the bonus.. could be fun.. wouldn't do me much good.. I tend to be reckless and die regularly... but I could see some merit to it..

[Anaximandroz]

Playing for a year or so the reason i don't play much in group is only one: AVOID ZERGS. I don't understand the idea of play a game for fun in the minimal possible. But i still start and join pugs if i'm in the mood to run. The ideas are good, except for personal death penalty; i can see a group looking to each other to see who will open a trapped door.

[niehues]

There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

Please if u do so.. Add it on the top deck... the top deck after the airship pass feels so empty now...

It would be awesome to have a tavern, mail bank on the top deck like it was possible b4...

BTW i like all the changes to the XP and death.. I never care abt ppl die but I know a lot of ppl do..

[cupajoe]

Playing for a year or so the reason i don't play much in group is only one: AVOID ZERGS. I don't understand the idea of play a game for fun in the minimal possible. But i still start and join pugs if i'm in the mood to run. The ideas are good, except for personal death penalty; i can see a group looking to each other to see who will open a trapped door.

I can see a new game when playing with guildies and friends. Let's see who can kill the other guy! I play mostly rogues...what's that you need a heal...oh and I hit diplo....sorry (not)! Or dang I didn't mean to hit grease! So many possibilities! Remember it's all fun and games until you lose YOUR bonus!

Seriously, I think these changes are fine. I also think that people will do what they will do. As others have said people who want to group will and those that don't, won't. People who help and contribute will continue to do so. People who are less helpful will continue to be less helpful. These changes aren't enough to change how I play this game and I think this is true for most players.

[Anaximandroz]

And if we are talking about bonus changes i would like too the optionals give less %basexp but they stack so exploring all the dungeon will (probably, math to be done) be worth also in productivity. Something like: (((basexp+10% conquest)+10% ingenuous debilitation)+10%vandal) +10% optional objective, and so on.

[davmuzl]

~Raid Bonus.. meh.. who cares.. raids are supposed to be about challenge and named loot not xp running.. players should already be in their best destiny and appropriate level..especially endgame raids.. (Von5 excluded .. that is definitely an XP pre-raid)..

The game makes people expect bad xp and good loot out of raids. If every raid was like von5 this would be different. There are only 3-5 raids where I expect people to come in their best destiny and even in those only on ee.

Something like bravery bonus.. Flawless deaths bonus streak... Personal based .. the more quests you run without dying the better the bonus.. could be fun.. wouldn't do me much good.. I tend to be reckless and die regularly... but I could see some merit to it..

I honestly think that bravery bonus and streak are good. They reward players for the additional challenge. Remember how it was before or look at what happens when there is no streak bonus. People run normal even if they could easily complete elite because it's more efficient. It's just that the game is easy enough for someone who trs regulary (which is pretty much the only thing you can do in this game once you are at the cap).


To make people group the game needs to be hard enough to where the challenge is notable and the scaling has to make it harder for a single person to complete the quest.

[knockcocker]

severlin, the changes in the op are good but they're the wrong direction. Bravery is overly complicated and creates sociological issues where there don't need to be any. There are two alternate solutions that are much cleaner:

1) cap and descend
as ironclan already outlined: Streak caps at 5, "breaking" streak decrements it instead of erasing it. This is a better solution than the op, but still sub-optimal, imo.

2) first run bonus
remove the bravery bonus entirely, and add a "first run" bonus that all players always get the first time they run a quest. This first run bonus doubles your difficulty-based first time bonus. At the same time, drop the first time elite bonus from 80% to 75%. The numbers work out essentially the same for hard and elite streaking, plus normal gets a mild bump.

The first run bonus is far superior to any workaround for streak, whether it's suppression or capping. You get the same equivalent xp as bravery gives but there's no complicated explanation required (look at all that text in the xp report explaining bravery!) and more relevant, there's no psychological pressure to avoid grouping due to losing out on streak bonus.

+1

kiss

[noble_pirate]

still way to go to return TEAMPLAY into game... (especially when devs missed that possibility by giving selfheal to barbarians - that was closest and most real opportunity to make healers back in parties)

[FranOhmsford]

I honestly think that bravery bonus and streak are good. They reward players for the additional challenge. Remember how it was before or look at what happens when there is no streak bonus. People run normal even if they could easily complete elite because it's more efficient. It's just that the game is easy enough for someone who trs regulary (which is pretty much the only thing you can do in this game once you are at the cap).

Excuse me but why should we be forced to run Elite?

Back in the day people when E/H/N/N/N to infinity on certain quests because it was FASTER!

These days they run EN instead of EH or EE again because it's FASTER!

There's nothing the Devs can do to make N or EN slower than H/E or EH/EE and frankly the xp differential between N and E on the same quest is already massive so anymore would be over-kill!

To make people group the game needs to be hard enough to where the challenge is notable and the scaling has to make it harder for a single person to complete the quest.

And how exactly is this going to make more people run Elite?

The above two quotes are complete opposites!

You can't have Elite be both hard enough to make people group AND have more people running Elite than N/H - It just doesn't work like that!

[Impaqt]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

About time. The flaws in the original concept with apparent from day one. It will be good to stop hearing people complain about losing the 10p. And while this doesnt "encourage" grouping, it doesnt Discourage it to some folks like before. TY!

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

TY. They NEVER should have in the first place. They have never been very good at self preservation.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

well... This is something I guess.... I'm not sure its going to make a big difference in groups though.

I still stink a Dynamic BB system with a hard cap is the way to go...
Simply get rid of the "My number is bigger than yours" aspect of the system.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

This could be interesting. We
we'll see. Id rather see something permanent to encourage grouping though. You could always give folks a "Solo" completion bonus to make up for some of the difference in incentivizing the group.

[Blackheartox]

Good changed, wondering why it wasn't like that since start.
Outside of possible abuse during events via boxing i see nothing negative in this whole proposal and that really would not be abuse but people paying more money to get more content on multiple accounts.
Actually could be really nice income for you guys

[Xionanx]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Glad to see XP is being looked at, but I fear that unless the party bonus is significant it simply wont be enough to encourage all the "private party only secret channel groups" to actually open up and start letting new people play with them.

I would love to see 10% extra per person beyond first.. now, "Elite BB" isn't the ONLY way to get a 50% bonus.

I think it might also be helpful to implement some kind of "noob bonus", where.. if you group with someone who is "New" to the game.. IE, an account less then 30 days old, that the NEW PLAYER can "Rate" how helpful the team was at the end of a quest. They get a little pop up after the quest completes, and they can rate each party member on a scale of 0 to 5 on how helpful that person was to them. Then.. after 24hrs the HELPFUL players receive XP "Stones" in the mail valued at 0-5 x 100xp (amount shown as example) for taking the time to help a new player out. (or some other reward).

I also wouldn't mind an "XP Sink" placed in the hall of heros that lets me convert 1PP to 1XP.. just saying. (lets get rid of all the PP on the servers overnight)

As far as the Bravery Bonus repression goes.. I personally think BB needs to be scrapped entirely. There is a fairly long thread going on right now about the lack of grouping and much debate has been had there, but a finger keeps getting pointed at BB for ruining grouping, and I tend to agree.

I really cant remember what the reasoning was for implementing BB at the time.. but I do know that TR2+ was 4.4mil XP and there were fewer quests so there was much complaining about lack of XP in the game.. so I think BB was done as a way to put some much needed XP in the game for multi-life TR's. But now.. I think the game would be better served by simply removing BB entirely and doing an across the board base XP increase of about 25% to all quests.

[mezzorco]

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

Let's assume I suppress my bravey bonus.
Then I enter a quest for the first time and complete it on normal
After that, I reactivate my bravery bonus and complete the same quest on elite.

Will this count for bravery bonus? Or will this break bravery streak? Or will it simply be ignored (streak paused and not applied, but not broken)?

Note that, if it counts for bravery bonus, with a bit of micro-management any player can get bravery bonus on every quest (assuming he is able to complete it at level).

[FranOhmsford]

I think it might also be helpful to implement some kind of "noob bonus", where.. if you group with someone who is "New" to the game.. IE, an account less then 30 days old, that the NEW PLAYER can "Rate" how helpful the team was at the end of a quest. They get a little pop up after the quest completes, and they can rate each party member on a scale of 0 to 5 on how helpful that person was to them. Then.. after 24hrs the HELPFUL players receive XP "Stones" in the mail valued at 0-5 x 100xp (amount shown as example) for taking the time to help a new player out. (or some other reward).

Oh I can see it already - 5 Players get together and one of them creates a new account then gives his main account and the other 4 players 5 stars!

Then another one creates a new account.

Then another, and another, and the last one!

Then they start over!