Upcoming Experience Changes

[Silverleafeon]

Bravery does something besides First Time per difficulty bonuses, it provides a extra bonus for doing a quest at least once. This suddenly made a great many poor xp quest worth doing at least one time. Suddenly, once and done became more important than continually doing the same few quests over and over again.

Increasing First Time Bonuses per difficulty would not address this issue correctly, nor would it relieve the narrow three level range before power level penalties kick in.


Yes, these solutions of has been presented before and debated before:

• Subtraction from bravery streak ~ likely rejected as its likely easier to suppress bravery than subtract from it, and likely less buggy in the long run.
  
  
• Increasing first time bonuses ~ does not address the first time ever doing the quest without cheesy heavy over level questing, leaves the players farming each difficulty of certain quest w/o seeking out new quests during a life. Increases instants in certain locations which can in past produce problems
  
  
• Removing Bravery numbers over five ~ removes an achievement symbol from the game when this game has so few.
  
  
• Increasing Grouping Bonuses full time ~ has the fear of being abused by multiboxing. Shifting it into bonus weekend (which should be full weeks imho not weekends), prevents players from planning long term, and grants variety of big burst weekends of various amounts. It hard to say what is wrong math when it comes and goes.
  
  
• Increasing XP bonsuses from trapping ~ already done.
  
  
• Removing death penalty to be self only ~ requested for a long time by many.
  
  
• Dealing with lack of Bravery or First Time bonuses after multiple Epic lives ~ not dealt with atm.
  
  
• Dealing with the upcoming huge jump in XP to get to level 30 cap ~ not dealt with atm, probably being debated behind closed doors. Decreasing the 150k per level incremental to 100K per level would do it. Also allowing Epic Reincarnation to stay at 28, and introducing Demi-God reincarnation system from 30 back to 28 would do it. Introducing regenerating First Time Epic Bonuses would deal with this and the one before this.
  
  
• Dealing with Raiding Xp being typically too low and the theory that increasing raiding xp will help raiding ~ being dealt with by the bonus raiding xp grouping. Also being dealt with by the suppression of bravery to allow players to raid as they please w/o fear of losing bravery.
  
  
• Dealing with certain worlds not having enough population to group for raids ~ often requested but problematical in theory, nothing atm.
  
  
• Dealing with lag promoted by overworked DDO computers ~ new equipment incoming, hopefully will see more thereby.
  

[Postumus]

I think it is wholly dependent on how they replace the BB bonus.

Agreed. I don't care about 'the streak'. It's meaningless since we all know how to "pause" the BB streak by summoning a hireling above level or running with higher level characters.


I care about how much xp I get from my 5 elite quest streak.

One thing is for sure - BB makes players happy/unhappy now and any change will have the same impact. IMO, the question becomes, what is best to grow the player base for the game and be attractive for new players?

I don't think that many people are unhappy about it. I see about an equal number of posts on both sides when the subject comes up. Some folks are more vocal than others. A lot of people don't seem to care enough to comment.


I honestly don't believe changing or eliminating BB will draw new players to the game. New players won't understand the BB at first, and, as I said in a post above, xp/min or xp/quest players won't suddenly be running more HN or EN content unless we go back to the bad old days of E/H/N/N/N/N farming.

[Postumus]

Bravery does something besides First Time per difficulty bonuses, it provides a extra bonus for doing a quest at least once. This suddenly made a great many poor xp quest worth doing at least one time. Suddenly, once and done became more important than continually doing the same few quests over and over again.

Exactly. It's been mentioned more than once in this thread, but the anti-BB keep glossing over it.

[Silverleafeon]

Before bravery the system was very, very broken, there is a great deal of danger by simply removing it without replacing it with something superior!

If Fawn the Druid arrives on the scene, then suddenly that quest can run at higher difficulty than with two poorly equipped newcomers. Would not it be better for Fawn to put up her own LFM and let them join her, while she paves the way for them? Especially if no one care who dies besides one self anymore?

[kain741]

Bravery does something besides First Time per difficulty bonuses, it provides a extra bonus for doing a quest at least once. This suddenly made a great many poor xp quest worth doing at least one time. Suddenly, once and done became more important than continually doing the same few quests over and over again.

Increasing First Time Bonuses per difficulty would not address this issue correctly, nor would it relieve the narrow three level range before power level penalties kick in.

Why would it not address the issue correctly?
There is no difference whether I get:
• 50% for BB and 80% for first time elite
• or I get 130% for first time elite
The motivation is still there to run through one time and break the monotony of e/e/e/e/e/e/e/h/n

[kain741]

Exactly. It's been mentioned more than once in this thread, but the anti-BB keep glossing over it.

I'm not sure if people are so much anti-BB or just not a fan of the run to the NPC solution. I would be fine keeping the system in place as it is now. The issue is it has been concluded that BB is keeping people from partying together and not running quests they otherwise would. if this is the case adding an NPC is not nearly as clean of a solution as just simply scaling XP accordingly and removing the risk or forgetting to turn a bonus on or off. Keeping the streak running as a cosmetic feature is still an option for those that want it and will not impact those who do not care if their streak if over 2.

[Silverleafeon]

Why would it not address the issue correctly?
There is no difference whether I get:
• 50% for BB and 80% for first time elite
• or I get 130% for first time elite
The motivation is still there to run through one time and break the monotony of e/e/e/e/e/e/e/h/n

There is quite a difference between the two.

Have you ever made an iconic?

The first thing one should do with an iconic is pick up all the Elite First Time Bonuses that they have missed. Despite the over level penalties, the xp is still quite good. Increasing this xp w/o any level restrictions (and I will be the first to admit that +1 to level ranges for heroics such as the +2 for the level ranges of epic should be considered) would be quite broken in its own way.

Unless you create a first time ever bonus (which would be modifying the bravery bonus with modified level ranges), you are going to end up increasing not only first time elite but first time hard (some players run Hard Bravery Streaks which is important too). This shifts everything from once and done to Farming the best quests per xp on each difficulty.

It does make a difference and if some math guru can see thus and show us a better system, I will be happy to read thru it.

Thanks.

[lyrecono]

if BB is so sucks to newer/weaker/anti social or under geared player, why not improve the game in ways that attracts more of these so they can group up too?

[Silverleafeon]

Also of importance is Suppression Sam's ability to avoid in game bugs.

For example, my toon's quest log atm is showing that she has already favor for EE Fall of Truth, yet when i click on the door for Fall of Truth it is showing, doing the quest at this difficulty with earn an Elite Bravery Bonus or at Hard will earn a Hard Bravery Bonus (hence proving that raids are going to be very problematic for bravery).

Anyway, should I step in and find that my bravery streak will be killed in a raid or any other quest (looking at you Haunted Halls) despite having already done it, then one could use the NPC to disable the killing of bravery.

Yes, in the past people could not run quest/raid X (I forget which one) due to it continually killing bravery. Seems like before quest xp regenerated there was a bug of that nature too.

[Silverleafeon]

if BB is so sucks to newer/weaker/anti social or under geared player, why not improve the game in ways that attracts more of these so they can group up too?

+1

[Postumus]

The issue is it has been concluded that BB is keeping people from partying together and not running quests they otherwise would.

I respectfully disagree with this conclusion. I believe it is erroneous and based on nothing but forum conjecture.


I have explained how eliminating BB will not encourage grouping and will not result in more elite players grouping with non-elite players. It MIGHT result in players who should be playing Hard or Normal putting up more Normal and Hard LFMs, but there is no reason to believe this is true or that it would even be a significant number if it were true.


1- As long as elite quests grant significantly more xp or loot drops, they will be run to the exclusion of other difficulties. This will not increase the number of LFMs below elite difficulty.


2- As long as vet players find Elite easy (or about the right challenge), they will run elite to the exclusion of other difficulties. This will not increase the number of LFMs below elite difficulty.


3- Turbine is about to roll out Reaper difficulty because enough players find even EE too easy. This will not increase the number of LFMs below elite difficulty.


4- Eliminating the all the bonuses for elite/hard/normal completions altogether and only giving a small base increase to xp is probably the only way to encourage players to make more N and H LFMs. You could give an additional X% first time completion bonus for quests, but it would have to be the same regardless of difficulty.

[Postumus]

if BB is so sucks to newer/weaker/anti social or under geared player, why not improve the game in ways that attracts more of these so they can group up too?

I agree. And I think the bigger problem is the number, specifically the lack thereof, of newer players.

[Hafeal]

if BB is so sucks to newer/weaker/anti social or under geared player, why not improve the game in ways that attracts more of these so they can group up too?

I agree. And I think the bigger problem is the number, specifically the lack thereof, of newer players.

Of course, this is the problem with closing the barn door after the horses have run out. Right now, the barn door is still open.

In a competitive gaming world, you may have only 1 shot to keep a player trying your game. Converting that player to stay in DDO has proven to be difficult. BB is one piece in a set of difficulties new and returning players have to face in joining DDO.

On those occasions DDO gets new (or returning) players, we have a system that is makes it difficult to group early in the game (sunny Korthos? snowy Korthos?). It seems to me the number of new and returning players currently appears to be a trickle. So, new players have fewer players of a similar expereince range to group with. If they make it off Korthos, and that is a big IF, there are still few LFMs and many LFMs available in the Harbor are elite runs.

And, as Postumus infers, DDO has a long sordid history of vacillating between not advertising and little advertising. In the beginning, this was ok, because DDO drew amongst those who knew of the D&D brand. Today is different, that crowd has come and gone or is here already. So DDO is now drawing on a players base that may never had much, if any, experience with the D&D brand - and they need a product that can attract and retain players. DDO is an MMO and needs to sell the best aspects an MMO offers to gamers - social interaction. And a big part of that is removing barriers to that interaction.

[Hafeal]

*snip*

I respectfully disagree. Before BB, xp zergers often had Normal runs. Very often. And even if they zerged, in my experience, they generally took the first 6 to click. It was a way to mix and mingle.

I go back to Shroud. Shroud was the games watering hole for a looooong time. New, old, vet, newb, elitist - they all mixed and mingled at the portals. What was great about that was players of every ilk and ability got to meet & greet. The game completely lacks that element today and has since Shroud was changed.

The game benefits from players of all ability levels playing together. It is that social element which forms the bonds that keep us coming back. This game has lost sight of what it is - an MMO. IMO, it needs to rediscover those roots and that is what will bring people back. Ultimately, you play to play with your friends - the game needs to let us all make more friends, more easily.

[Qhualor]

3- Turbine is about to roll out Reaper difficulty because enough players find even EE too easy. This will not increase the number of LFMs below elite difficulty.

have we actually gotten anything official on this yet? I read that thread and didn't see a dev post. all I saw was guesses.

[EllisDee37]

Bravery does something besides First Time per difficulty bonuses, it provides a extra bonus for doing a quest at least once. This suddenly made a great many poor xp quest worth doing at least one time. Suddenly, once and done became more important than continually doing the same few quests over and over again.

Increasing First Time Bonuses per difficulty would not address this issue correctly, nor would it relieve the narrow three level range before power level penalties kick in.

You're misunderstanding the proposed "first run" bonus. It's explained with more detail in this thread.

It has the same incentive to run a variety of quests, and gives the same xp for elite streaking or hard streaking. (Though "streaking" as a mechanic goes away.)

Exactly. It's been mentioned more than once in this thread, but the anti-BB keep glossing over it.

It's not being glossed over. The mechanic you're concerned about -- getting +150% xp bonus from one-and-done on elite -- is retained in its entirety.

[EllisDee37]

Why would it not address the issue correctly?
There is no difference whether I get:
• 50% for BB and 80% for first time elite
• or I get 130% for first time elite
The motivation is still there to run through one time and break the monotony of e/e/e/e/e/e/e/h/n

It doesn't work if you just add it to the first time difficulty bonus. It has to be a separate bonus that you only get once per quest per life, otherwise you're introducing a ton of new xp into the game.

In your specific example, the key difference is that the bravery way you can't run it on hard first and still get 130% for elite. (Elite actually gives 150% with bravery.)

Also, what about hard streakers? If you add the appropriate amount of xp to first time hard, then you're now allowing people to get the equivalent of both hard and elite streak xp bonuses in the same quest. That's a lot of new xp that wasn't there before.

The "first run" bonus, where the first time you run a quest you double the first time difficulty bonus, just about perfectly replaces and mimics everything in the bravery system while at the same time removes anti-grouping features of bravery and also greatly simplifies the bonus, making it much easier to understand.

EDIT: Note that the overlevel issue is easily duplicated if desired: You only get the "first run" bonus if you're within two levels of base quest level. I'd prefer they didn't add this, but it's easily added to maintain the status quo.

[Faltout]

You're misunderstanding the proposed "first run" bonus. It's explained with more detail in this thread.

This is what we have been proposing in the past pages.
In addition, keep the current streak counter without any xp effects.

Basically, the proposal is "Every time you are eligible for bravery bonus, automatically apply a streak of 5". You play a quest on normal means you don't get any bonus and you won't get any bonus after that. Play a quest on hard means you'll get a hard streak bonus and no bonus after that. Playing elite will get you an elite streak bonus and no bonus after that.

[btolson]

Under the proposed system, that number doesn't mean much anymore because you can just "cheat" the system with the toggle.

I think what you want to do in order to please as many people as possible is:
-Convert Bravery into a purely-bragging rights mechanic. It will stack and clear as it does now on live, there will be NO toggle to disable it, and it will offer NO tangible rewards (i.e., no bonus XP).
-Make a complementary change to increase the XP for first-time completion bonus as has been suggested earlier in the thread.

This is a lot simpler for everyone, while preserving an uncheatable Bravery count for people who like to see it.

I'd like to add that a large part of the reason I'd prefer this is to divorce Heroic completions from Epic completions, which is something they've always refused to do with Bravery. If I understand how the proposed toggle NPC will work, then it will do nothing to preserve my epic BB xp if I play epic'able content during heroics. I would actually like to play Gianthold, etc, on heroic difficulty for a change, instead of avoiding all epic'able content until I can get epic BB for it like I've been doing for ages now.


As for the issue with the first-time bonus and over-level penalties, I think this can be remedied by doubling the over-level penalty whenever the first-time bonus is active.

[Standal]

Please explain to me how any of these proposals really help grouping? Why will I suddenly stop running in the most advantageous way just because I can suspend my streak? I can see that it might help raiding slightly, but all adding to the first time bonuses does is change the level a quest is run at or the order of quest running.

The problem with grouping is that there are a very limited number of playing the game that want to group with you. Ever since I started the game, there have been guild only runners, solo only runners, puggers, and players who were a combination of all 3.

When I started playing, there were almost always multiple instances of the Marketplace and Harbor during US prime time on Thelanis. Also, you didn't have superpowered builds that BYOH'd at no cost. Changing the XP structure of the game won't bring those days back.