Archmage Pass

[nibel]

My state is:

- PaleMaster can take Archmage perks without drawback
- Archmage can’t take PaleMaster perks without drawback
- PaleMaster with Archmage perks is superior to Archmage with Harper Tree.
- Thus every time PaleMaster win and this is unbalance.

Thus far, I am with you. This is the situation on live, and the trees should receive a balance.

- Your ideas made situation even worse, because PM become even more superior.

That is the point I disagree. I think my proposition on AM, with Harper as secondary, can be equal to PM regarding DC casting.

Capstone/T5 PM + Core 5 Archmage gets:

+6 All [+10 Int (2 Castone, 2 PM, 2 AM, 4 Lich), +1 AM Core 5]
+2 Necromancy [Lich + PM T5]
+2 One school (that can also be Necro) [AM Core 3 and T4 Mastery]
======
+6 General
+8~10 Necro
+8~6 secondary

Capstone/T5 AM + 24 AP Harper

+6 All [+8 Int (2 Capstone, 2 AM, 4 Harper), +2 AM Core 5 and T5]
+3 Secondary School [AM Core 6, T4 mastery, T5 SLA] <-- That T5 SLA is on your credit
+1 Secondary School [AM T5 secondary SLA]
=======
+6 general
+9 Primary
+7 Secondary

Seems balanced to me.

And when we compare the trees in isolation, the situation also stays at the same points: PM can have a higher Necro DC (which make sense), and AM win on the other six schools, but a Necro AM is still only one point behind, while having a better secondary school.

[Requiro]

(...)

Seems balanced to me.

With T5 SLA +1DC 1st school, and T5 +1DC 2nd School, it seems much more balanced, but unfortunately only in terms of DC.

In every other situation, Archlich (T5 PM) with AM (T4) is still superior to Archmage (T5) + Harper tree.

First Harper tree isn't free like PM or AM.
Second is give almost nothing for Wizard but +4 INT and 6/9 USP.

While AM gives PM: SL-as, Efficient Magic, More Spell Power (min. 31) and Spell Points (min. +62), Arcane Bolt/Shot, Spell critical and more. And of course +2 INT is better then +1DC.

And when we compare the trees in isolation (...)

Any reason to do that?. It's pointless.

My comments in red

I still think, that Archmage, should have on T5 additional SL-a from any spell level 1-3. This at least have something similar with original DnD Archmage. And give one more reason to take AM instead of PM.

[nibel]

With T5 SLA +1DC 1st school, and T5 +1DC 2nd School, it seems much more balanced, but unfortunately only in terms of DC.

For most Wizard archetypes, DC is the point that really matters. If you want DPS, there are better classes for that, even within the "spellcaster" umbrella, like sorcerer and warlock.

First Harper tree isn't free like PM or AM.

A fair point. It is accessible for a good portion of the player base, however. So I don't think it is wise to ignore it in the big picture.

Second is give almost nothing for Wizard but +4 INT and 6/9 USP.

A 41 AP PM/31 AP AM gets 61 Universal Spell Power (And 92 Negative, but that is irrelevant for non-PM)
A 41 AP AM/24 AP Harper gets at least 56 Universal. (41 from AM AP, 5 from AM capstone, 5 from Harper core 3, 6 from Harper T2-3)
Then if you consider the AM build saved 7 AP, they can put that on literally anything in AM and get +7 USP, going to 63.

They are also not that far apart from a Universal Spell Power perspective, either.

While AM gives PM: SL-as, Efficient Magic, More Spell Power (min. 31) and Spell Points (min. +62), Arcane Bolt/Shot, Spell critical and more.

My suggestion removes the extra SP per point on tree.

That is the part where the comparison is apples and oranges. 3/4 of the PM tree is basically only useful if you are necro-themed (skelly and negative-crit lines) or in undead form. What is left that a living wizard might get interested? Deathless Vigor (minor buff), Efficient Metamagic (improbable, since AM have four of those) and Cloak of Night. Maybe a single tier on the skelly line for a lever puller.

Saying "splashing on harper/pm does not give an AM any extra trick" is a problem with those trees, not AM. Even if you make the AM T5 "better", it can end up simply inverting the process, with a undead caster going 31 on PM for Lich Form, and getting AM capstone for the extra points to put on T5.

And of course +2 INT is better then +1DC.

Strictly speaking, yes. It also give a few SP points and bonus on int-based skills.

In practice, if you are building a DC-wizard, you only care about Int for the DC bonus.

I still think, that Archmage, should have on T5 additional SL-a from any spell level 1-3. This at least have something similar with original DnD Archmage. And give one more reason to take AM instead of PM.

IIRC, the main problem behind this is the code to allow you to turn "any spell" into a SLA. This was discussed to the death when Archmage was first released.

[bsquishwizzy]

Actually I think the OP may be on to something, especially when it comes to Wind Wall. My only criticisms are:

1) Have Wind Wall have a knockdown effect if the caster is struck.

2) Something more or different needs to be added to the Conjuration Core 3 ability - 10% faster casting time seems weak.

3) Add a +2 INT bump as a Tier 5 ability.\


And make sure Lesser Displacement stacks with the Displacement spell.

Alternatively, you could make the Tier 5 Necro Permanency be something like Ghostly, to keep it aligned with some of the other offerings there.

[Requiro]

I made some tables to sun all your ideas.

DC is the most important for caster thus, today we have:

DC Universal DC Main School DC 2nd School DC

PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP) +5 +8 (Necro) +6 (If not Necro)

AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP) +4 +6 (Any) +5 (Any but Main)

AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP) +3 +5 (Any) +4 (Any but Main)

AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP) +4 +7/5 (Necro/Not) +5/6 (Necro/Not)

While with your suggestions:

DC Universal DC Main School DC 2nd School DC

PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP) +6 +10 (Necro) +8 (If not Necro)

AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP) +6 +9 (Any) +7 (Any but Main)

AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP) +5 +8 (Any) +6 (Any but Main)

AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP) +6 +10/9 (Necro/Not) +7/9 (Necro/Not)

Compare other bonuses:

Main Perks	PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP)	AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP)	AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP)	AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP)
Undead Form	YES	NO	NO	YES
AP Left	8	15	17	8

Special Perks	PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP)	AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP)	AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP)	AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP)
SL-a Access	1-4 levels	1-5 + 1 levels	1-5 + 1 levels	1-5 + 1 levels
Efficient Metamagic	5 of 5	4 of 5	5 of 5	5 of 5
Spell Critical	N (+8%) E+F (6%)	E+F (6%)	N (+6%) E+F (6%)	N (+8%) E+F (6%)
Main Healing	Negative	Positive/Repair	Positive/Repair	Negative/Positive/Repair

Minor Perks	PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP)	AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP)	AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP)	AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP)
U SPower (trees)	62	47	57	64
U SPower Access	+10 (Orb)	+6/10 (Orb)	+10 (Orb)	+10 (Orb)
S Point (tree)	+~250	+~220	+~190	+~220
S Points Access	+90	+210	+90	+90
Necro SP	+41	+0	+16	+23
Spellcraft	+5	+9	+8	+9
HP Cost Damage SL-a	YES (All)	NO	YES (1)	YES (1)
SP Cost damage SL-a	YES (All)	YES (All)	YES (All)	YES (All)
Discount SP School Spells	-5 SP	-6 SP	-6 SP	-6 SP
Deathblock	YES	NO	NO	NO

After all this analyze I concur - this is good way to improve AM

What I will add is minor improvements:

• Additional -1 Spell Point for AM Capstone for Main School spells (Thus with capstone -7 SP for School spells)
• -1 Sell Point for T5 2nd School when taking Archmage Dilettante Studies
• 50% (thus 5% chance) to gain +2 INT with Arcane Supremacy - for temporarily super power. Mostly for flavor.
• Add Spell Critical (+2%) for Arcane Mastery T5 AM ability
• More balance to Core 6 additional bonus

Now the hardest problem is how to convince Devs to implement this? :-)