my state of monks rant

[Ametrine]

Adding another post on state of monks to see of devs take notice

After playing monk this life for while as a premium paid-for class it needs some reworking. I’ve played the revamped barb and bard and they are way more powerful - as a lvl 28 barb I walk into a room and the mobs just die of fright. Again as a premium class monks should be better than the free-to-play classes.

Here are my suggestions for shintao (the other trees I’ve tried and don’t even know where to begin with their awfulness)
1) Make stunning fist a vibration based attack like quivering palm and it should effect everything in the DDO world it hits that fails a save, same with quivering palm a vibration attack that will kill anything that fails the dc (and make its dc not ½ monk level but full monk level for the dc). If you vibrate a skeleton hard enough why can’t it be turned to dust.
2) All stances revamped: in particular Mountain stance gives adept 25%, master 50%, grandmaster 75% ac bonus – you’re a mountain not a hill. Fire stance better dc’s plus a chance to stun just because you’re hitting them. Wind stance: faster attack speed plus a chance to knock down. Ocean stance: better saves plus chance to do tidal damage
3) Monks should be the best dodgers in town getting a 2% dodge per monk level as a passive feat : think about it a lot of martial arts is centered around deflecting or dodge blows
4) Pali’s, bards, clerics get a way to make their damage cha based, I think monks should have a wis option. To the “Empty Hand Mastery” or “To Seek Perfection” enhancement I’d add the following: “Unarmed attacks and damage are now Str or Wis based whichever is higher”.
5) Redo the whole Kukan-do tree: a slow cha based attack, give me a break – monks are fast and wis based (1) I’d change Kukan Do’s effect to be a second vibration based stunning fist with a higher dc and be wis based (2) Jade Tomb be replaced with a passive enhancement called “Deadly Vibrations”: you now add 1d6 untype vibration damage to your hits that increases every hit up to a max of your monk level: so for a lvl 28 monk the first hit adds 1d6, second hit adds 2d6, if you hit the same mob long enough 28d6, (3) Replace Jade strike with a passive speed buff, monks have gotten too slow and I think they should be lightning fast, nobody in the game should be able to keep up with a lvl 28 monk. Vibrational Mastery: adds an additional 1% running speed increase per monk level (and possibly hand speed) (4) replace Smite tainted creatures with “Striking between time”: for a short time you vibrate so fast that you get 100% double-strike enhancement for both hands.

love to see other suggestions on how to revamp monks

[Robbenklopper]

... Again as a premium class monks should be better than the free-to-play classes. ...

I´m with you with all you said about overwork and revamp of the Monk class, but with the above i´m not. Why should it be better - only coz i paid for it? And how much stronger than even a barbarian or paladin shall Monk be coz those are just f2p classes?
Superiority of one class over others is not what i want to see, but diversity. Sure, not all classes are or can be equal or same powerful, unbalance will always be Topic in ddo like it is in the p&p System. P2P shall not be P2W.

[FranOhmsford]

Honestly most of those suggested buffs look ludicrously OP at first glance - Earth Stance especially doesn't need any more buffage, the other stances simply need to be boosted to match it.

I'd love to see Monks get buffed but no need to go overboard.

[Red_Knight]

Hate to break it to the OP, but my monk already can easily hit her usual dodge cap of 30. In ocean stance she's typically running around with 20 dodge, wait, no it's 22 now that I have a better dodge item equipped. Then every time I use Wind in the Reeds I cap my dodge.

Why would a Stun be vibration based? And I'm sorry, but it's highly doubtful any insta-kill is going to work on red and purple named enemies. Ever. The ranged insta kill, yeah that does kind of suck. But I believe it's also a direct port from PnP. Could be wrong about that though.

A monk's 'dodging and deflecting' is already reflected in getting wisdom to AC and large amounts of AC just for being a level 20 monk. At monk 20 epic 3 I have a standing AC of 43 BEFORE equipping anything while in ocean stance. In mountain stance it's 48 AC with nothing equipped. Name one other class with that high of AC without any gear.

While I wouldn't object to having a wis to damage option, it probably wont happen anytime soon. Would be nice though.

The stances though are just fine as they currently are. Mountain stance adds a decent amount of AC and enough PRR to make you sturdy enough. That plus getting more HP due to higher con. Ocean stance is already giving you better saves, more AC due to higher wisdom, more doge chance, and ki regeneration. Wind stance gives double strike and a degree of always on haste. Meanwhile fire stance gives the 'weakest' benefit of aditional ki generated when you hit things. Oh, and better damage due to higher strength. And increased damage because you can afford to spam ki strikes and other ki abilities due to generating large amounts of ki. I'm usually running in fire stance for the ki generation (which boosts damage quite a bit) or ocean stance for the dodge, wisdom, and save boosts.

[FranOhmsford]

The stances though are just fine as they currently are. Mountain stance adds a decent amount of AC and enough PRR to make you sturdy enough. That plus getting more HP due to higher con. Ocean stance is already giving you better saves, more AC due to higher wisdom, more doge chance, and ki regeneration. Wind stance gives double strike and a degree of always on haste. Meanwhile fire stance gives the 'weakest' benefit of aditional ki generated when you hit things. Oh, and better damage due to higher strength. And increased damage because you can afford to spam ki strikes and other ki abilities due to generating large amounts of ki. I'm usually running in fire stance for the ki generation (which boosts damage quite a bit) or ocean stance for the dodge, wisdom, and save boosts.

None of the other stances can compete with Earth Stance PRR boosts!

Earth Stance being the only Stance actually catered for in the Enhancement Trees really hurts the other Stances!

P.S. Devs...Don't even think about placing the other stance buffs in Henshin or Ninja Spy - They need to be in Shintao along with Earth!

[Blackheartox]

I can provide couple builds that are monk based (12-16 monk levels) that arent behind bard or barb at all, if anything they are on par with barb and ahead of bard in dps, and in survival ahead of both.

A pure monk is not that good, but multiclassing makes them quite strong.
Also proposed buffs are to much, way to much

[Red_Knight]

A pure monk is not that good, but multiclassing makes them quite strong.
Also proposed buffs are to much, way to much

This here? This is a bit of a falsehood. While monks may not be considered top tier for damage or tanking, they are not as bad as many suggest. It's only from a min/max perspective of "if it can't achieve the absolute peak performance then it's bad" that the statement of pure monk is not good would be true. Even in PnP 3.5 monks aren't 'the best' at anything. That doesn't mean they aren't good. Just that they aren't 'the best'. As implimented in DDO monks are decent damage dealers with a large toolbox of support and offense abilities. No one tool is overwhelmingly powerful. But the combined package makes them good characters.

Personally, I've long had the suspicion that the whole reason people deride monks and claim they aren't good is because of the "crits are all that matters" mindset. The same mindset that says only khopesh are worth using or that for years said that ranged combat was 'gimped'.

[Blackheartox]

This here? This is a bit of a falsehood. While monks may not be considered top tier for damage or tanking, they are not as bad as many suggest. It's only from a min/max perspective of "if it can't achieve the absolute peak performance then it's bad" that the statement of pure monk is not good would be true. Even in PnP 3.5 monks aren't 'the best' at anything. That doesn't mean they aren't good. Just that they aren't 'the best'. As implimented in DDO monks are decent damage dealers with a large toolbox of support and offense abilities. No one tool is overwhelmingly powerful. But the combined package makes them good characters.

Personally, I've long had the suspicion that the whole reason people deride monks and claim they aren't good is because of the "crits are all that matters" mindset. The same mindset that says only khopesh are worth using or that for years said that ranged combat was 'gimped'.

You dont play monks in ee, dont you?
Pnp 3.5 monks have nothing to do with ddo monks, pure monk has apsolutely nothing that is better then a 2 palie, 1 fighter, 6 ranger, 3-4 warlock etc and many more.
Nothing

[moo_cow]

I can provide couple builds that are monk based (12-16 monk levels) that arent behind bard or barb at all, if anything they are on par with barb and ahead of bard in dps, and in survival ahead of both.

A pure monk is not that good, but multiclassing makes them quite strong.
Also proposed buffs are to much, way to much

The only split that can possibly make monk a **** ton stronger is splashing druid and abusing wolf form. No other splits of 6 or 2 or whatever offer significantly huge dps options otherwise. I have played a monk for quite a while now and I am quite happy with my dps, however I don't crit near as often as any other class. While that isn't an indication of overall dps I have no idea how you could make a monk as powerful as a barb.

[Kodwraith]

There's definitely a lot of things wrong with monks; EVERYTHING is not one of them.

We basically have two core problems:
-> bugs. and stuff just plain not working. Or working wrong. Or working but interfering with something else. And handwraps.

The classic example is the 3% insight buff to HP from meditation of war overwriting the 20% buff from Unyielding Sentinel. This has been known for YEARS and is still not fixed. I do Software for a living and this one is simple since you could simply retype one of the two stances bonuses to alchemical or psionic and they'd stack. Somehow they manage to make the regular Stalwart Def and Unyielding Sent % HP bonus stack. +crit bonuses basically never work with HWs. The list of stuff goes on.

-> obsolencence.
The bigger issue is that monks basically have been badly badly out power creeped by other classes in survivability AND DPS. It'd be nice if we had one or the other. We currently have neither. The game switched "modes" for how melee dmg works (which of the monk stances provides melee power? That's right, none of them). AND the game switched modes for defenses that was radically unbalancing to monks as the last and only remaining pajama toon.

FWIW, If they just did this:
-> made the staff/ henshin tree AS GOOD AS the rogue staff tree (ie:just add the +%attack speed boost and fix sweeping strike to be the same as the rogue one).
-> made the shintao cores AS GOOD AS the pally 14 holysword OR revised tempest OR revised kensai tree AND working with HWs.
-> Fixed non-earth stances to actually be useful.
-> rebalanced defenses for a MODEST PRR/MRR buff that's tied to the SR and AC buffs we already get.
Then I'd be fine.

Oh and fix +crit stuff to work with hws.

[FranOhmsford]

There's definitely a lot of things wrong with monks; EVERYTHING is not one of them.

We basically have two core problems:
-> bugs. and stuff just plain not working. Or working wrong. Or working but interfering with something else. And handwraps.

The classic example is the 3% insight buff to HP from meditation of war overwriting the 20% buff from Unyielding Sentinel. This has been known for YEARS and is still not fixed. I do Software for a living and this one is simple since you could simply retype one of the two stances bonuses to alchemical or psionic and they'd stack. Somehow they manage to make the regular Stalwart Def and Unyielding Sent % HP bonus stack. +crit bonuses basically never work with HWs. The list of stuff goes on.

-> obsolencence.
The bigger issue is that monks basically have been badly badly out power creeped by other classes in survivability AND DPS. It'd be nice if we had one or the other. We currently have neither. The game switched "modes" for how melee dmg works (which of the monk stances provides melee power? That's right, none of them). AND the game switched modes for defenses that was radically unbalancing to monks as the last and only remaining pajama toon.

FWIW, If they just did this:
-> made the staff/ henshin tree AS GOOD AS the rogue staff tree (ie:just add the +%attack speed boost and fix sweeping strike to be the same as the rogue one).
-> made the shintao cores AS GOOD AS the pally 14 holysword OR revised tempest OR revised kensai tree AND working with HWs.
-> Fixed non-earth stances to actually be useful.
-> rebalanced defenses for a MODEST PRR/MRR buff that's tied to the SR and AC buffs we already get.
Then I'd be fine.

Oh and fix +crit stuff to work with hws.

Add to the above - Whatever you do DON'T buff the Monk Splash again!

That was the route cause of why Monks got so heavily nerfed in the first place!

Backload Pure Monk so that it's the Pure that gets the benefit rather than 18/2 Clonks or 12/6/2 Exploiter builds!

[Kodwraith]

Add to the above - Whatever you do DON'T buff the Monk Splash again!

That was the route cause of why Monks got so heavily nerfed in the first place!

Backload Pure Monk so that it's the Pure that gets the benefit rather than 18/2 Clonks or 12/6/2 Exploiter builds!

+agree we also don't want a single ability to completely dominate the level split ala pally at 2, 3 and 14-15 with the divinegace, def stance, holysword/zeal hard shelves respectively.

One thing I'd like to see is the stances be powerful (see my other post) and also have some difference between toons that took the stances as feats without many monk levels (like my ranger) and the pur noks that invested heavily into one the one class.

So thing like stances, weapon dice, enh cores etc should have a feat + level + enhancement additive component.

What we dont want is a huge cliff: "I took 13 paladin, got this nice tshirt then 14 paladin and I got was this fabulously OP spell that works on everything except handwraps"

[MrWindupBird]

I can provide couple builds that are monk based (12-16 monk levels) that arent behind bard or barb at all, if anything they are on par with barb and ahead of bard in dps, and in survival ahead of both.

A pure monk is not that good, but multiclassing makes them quite strong.
Also proposed buffs are to much, way to much

Yeah that's not true.
I don't have a comment on the survivability, everything is survivable enough in DDO if you pay attention, even glass cannons. Monks are better than some, worse than some on that front.

Multiclass unarmed monks are better than pure, however a more accurate description than better would be less bad. I've played many, many varieties of unarmed monk. My favorite by far was a 12monk/6ranger/2pally dance-of-death toon, and it was so far behind on single target dps compared to any of rogue, pally, bard, barb that I've given up on unarmed combat for the forseeable future. Not to mention that the plethora of bugs affecting unarmed are incredibly frustrating.

Unless you are talking wolf (debatable) or tree (true). Neither of which qualifies as an unarmed monk in either the literal or common sense interpretation.

I don't expect unarmed combat to fixed anytime soon, but silly statements about its effectiveness will just postpone the wait.

[Blackheartox]

Yeah that's not true.
I don't have a comment on the survivability, everything is survivable enough in DDO if you pay attention, even glass cannons. Monks are better than some, worse than some on that front.

Multiclass unarmed monks are better than pure, however a more accurate description than better would be less bad. I've played many, many varieties of unarmed monk. My favorite by far was a 12monk/6ranger/2pally dance-of-death toon, and it was so far behind on single target dps compared to any of rogue, pally, bard, barb that I've given up on unarmed combat for the forseeable future. Not to mention that the plethora of bugs affecting unarmed are incredibly frustrating.

Unless you are talking wolf (debatable) or tree (true). Neither of which qualifies as an unarmed monk in either the literal or common sense interpretation.

I don't expect unarmed combat to fixed anytime soon, but silly statements about its effectiveness will just postpone the wait.

Mainly tree tbh.
Even tho im the one who with help of some others created the broken 10 6 4, and formerly 8 6 6 exploit druid builds, i am not to fond of them.
Im usually to hyped when i find out about something and push toward making it work with any means possible. And initially i have only 2 loves in ddo, monks and sorcs and now that i finished all plifes yet again, back to monk
My friend did 12 6 2 as well, bf chopper build, but he went into t5 of shintao instead of ranger, due to the fact that 90% in tempest doesnt work with unarmed, also with ww you get the aoe part coverd and apsolutely no need to take dance.
(crit range from violence helps a bit for dps)
Did you have whirlwind? Its pretty much a mandatory feat line on monks imo, blitzers or tree builds /melle monks

[MrWindupBird]

Mainly tree tbh.
Even tho im the one who with help of some others created the broken 10 6 4, and formerly 8 6 6 exploit druid builds, i am not to fond of them.
Im usually to hyped when i find out about something and push toward making it work with any means possible. And initially i have only 2 loves in ddo, monks and sorcs and now that i finished all plifes yet again, back to monk
My friend did 12 6 2 as well, bf chopper build, but he went into t5 of shintao instead of ranger, due to the fact that 90% in tempest doesnt work with unarmed, also with ww you get the aoe part coverd and apsolutely no need to take dance.
(crit range from violence helps a bit for dps)
Did you have whirlwind? Its pretty much a mandatory feat line on monks imo, blitzers or tree builds /melle monks

Well aware of whirlwind, it's nice but in way addresses the generally low DPS and very low redname DPS of monks.

As far as tempest enhancements go, while the PRR and +1 hit/damage does not work with wraps, everything else significant does. Of note, +10% offhand strikes, haste boost, reflex saves, dodge/dodge cap, growing storm, elaborate parry and dance of death. Tempest is not a very good tree, but it is significantly better than the monk trees even missing the dual-wield enhancements. I shouldn't have to point out that the only DPS enhancements in monk trees are sneak attack, deft strikes, and empty hand mastery/violence begets violence. Not much opportunity cost there.

Oh, and try dance of death with unarmed. The reason it's nice is that monk special attacks are just normal attacks with effects added on: ie they are standard attacks and work with dance of death. It's no more effective than a cleaving barb or pally, but AoE-stunning fist, unbalancing strike, etc is pretty fun.

[Kawai]

how many years did we all put up w/Ponks dominating everything?

yea... they can wait until after other classes get caught up.
-years afterwards that is.

[Daitengu]

how many years did we all put up w/Ponks dominating everything?

About zero!

[KomradKillMachine]

Of note, +10% offhand strikes, haste boost, reflex saves, dodge/dodge cap, growing storm, elaborate parry and dance of death. Tempest is not a very good tree, but it is significantly better than the monk trees even missing the dual-wield enhancements. I shouldn't have to point out that the only DPS enhancements in monk trees are sneak attack, deft strikes, and empty hand mastery/violence begets violence. Not much opportunity cost there.

Oh, and try dance of death with unarmed. The reason it's nice is that monk special attacks are just normal attacks with effects added on: ie they are standard attacks and work with dance of death. It's no more effective than a cleaving barb or pally, but AoE-stunning fist, unbalancing strike, etc is pretty fun.

The wiki says that the bolded part doesn't work for wraps,
was there a recent fix or something?

[moo_cow]

Well aware of whirlwind, it's nice but in way addresses the generally low DPS and very low redname DPS of monks.

As far as tempest enhancements go, while the PRR and +1 hit/damage does not work with wraps, everything else significant does. Of note, +10% offhand strikes, haste boost, reflex saves, dodge/dodge cap, growing storm, elaborate parry and dance of death. Tempest is not a very good tree, but it is significantly better than the monk trees even missing the dual-wield enhancements. I shouldn't have to point out that the only DPS enhancements in monk trees are sneak attack, deft strikes, and empty hand mastery/violence begets violence. Not much opportunity cost there.

Oh, and try dance of death with unarmed. The reason it's nice is that monk special attacks are just normal attacks with effects added on: ie they are standard attacks and work with dance of death. It's no more effective than a cleaving barb or pally, but AoE-stunning fist, unbalancing strike, etc is pretty fun.

The +10% off hand strikes still doesn't work. Simple to test since I am not getting 2 hits every time I swing.

[jwelch]

This here? This is a bit of a falsehood. While monks may not be considered top tier for damage or tanking, they are not as bad as many suggest. It's only from a min/max perspective of "if it can't achieve the absolute peak performance then it's bad" that the statement of pure monk is not good would be true. Even in PnP 3.5 monks aren't 'the best' at anything. That doesn't mean they aren't good. Just that they aren't 'the best'. As implimented in DDO monks are decent damage dealers with a large toolbox of support and offense abilities. No one tool is overwhelmingly powerful. But the combined package makes them good characters.

Personally, I've long had the suspicion that the whole reason people deride monks and claim they aren't good is because of the "crits are all that matters" mindset. The same mindset that says only khopesh are worth using or that for years said that ranged combat was 'gimped'.

It's an MMO. If it can't do 1K+ damage per hit, people don't like it. If it's not the best at everything it sucksOMGOMG***KHAAAAAAAN!!!!!

I play pure monks, really it's the only class I play, and on EE, I keep up just fine. In fact, in terms of kills per quest (not a perfect stat, but one of the few we have to work with) I'm *rarely* below 3rd, and it's kind of unusual not to be #1 or #2. But it's not something you can do just by standing and flailing. It involved a lot of time learning the timings for things like whirlwind, lily petal/Drifting Lotus, and realizing that I did need to get my stunning fist up to around 70.

It is a lot of work to get a monk performing well, but it is in fact doable, and no, you're not doomed forever to be a perma-piker on EE quests. Can I solo EE? Rarely, but monk isn't the class I'd try to do that on. Is a monk HIGHLY effective in a group? Absolutely. Just have to think a bit more about it.

But if all one wishes to do is stand and flail fists or bits of metal at things, then monk is not a good class.