question on str

[Ametrine]

Hi,

On my 10th life I decided to try out human monk. I kept it simple and went str based and at level 28 my stats in fire stance/divine crusader epic destiny are
str: 40 (using a +2 str tome and all ability points going into str)
dex: 34 (using a +3 dex tome)
con: 36 (using a +4 con tome)
int: 15 (using a +4 int tome)
wis: 38 (using a +4 wis tome)
cha: 16 (using a +4 cha tome)

Its a fun build to play and it holds its own in EE content but I decided I'm going to do several rounds of epic reincarnation on this toon and would like to try wis based next.

My question is if I go wis based how high should I take str? On the str based monk I took power attack but my thoughts are on a wis based monk is to leave str at base and take precision.

-thanks

[Saekee]

power attack is a pre-req for cleave & great cleave--can you post more about your build? Is it pure? A great option for monks is whirlwind attack.
Wisdom-based monks have great defenses and tactical DCs for finishing moves, stunning fist etc. However, your damage is still based on strength. If you are punching something that can't be stunned, you may find yourself frustrated.
You ought to consider earth stance and iron skin for prr and improved combat expertise in LD gives another 20 PRR

[Ametrine]

I decided just to try it for fun and if it stank hit the heroic tr immediately.

Actually it works pretty good.
at creation
8 str
17 dex
14 con
9 int
18 wis
8 cha

then put all ability points in wis (feats were two weapon line + improved crit bludgeon + precision + vorpal strikes + 4x toughness)
enhancement went mostly ninja spy with some shintao thrown in

epic destiny: Grandmaster of Flowers + rejuvenation cocoon + Grim Precision + Legendary Tactics

ran toon through EE chronoscope and at level 21 (Eveningstar villager gear + golden guile + grave wrappings) I kicked ass, stunned hit 99% of the time (dc on stun is 61 in water stance)

[Saekee]

Sounds good but how have you faired against things you cannot stun? With low STR you might have poor base damage. Maybe switch to weapons?

[inspiredunease]

I decided just to try it for fun and if it stank hit the heroic tr immediately.

Actually it works pretty good.
at creation
8 str
17 dex
14 con
9 int
18 wis
8 cha

then put all ability points in wis (feats were two weapon line + improved crit bludgeon + precision + vorpal strikes + 4x toughness)
enhancement went mostly ninja spy with some shintao thrown in

epic destiny: Grandmaster of Flowers + rejuvenation cocoon + Grim Precision + Legendary Tactics

ran toon through EE chronoscope and at level 21 (Eveningstar villager gear + golden guile + grave wrappings) I kicked ass, stunned hit 99% of the time (dc on stun is 61 in water stance)

Four toughness feats!?!?! Bit overkill maybe? Personally I'd have picked up the dodge -> whirlwind line instead.

[Saekee]

Four toughness feats!?!?! Bit overkill maybe? Personally I'd have picked up the dodge -> whirlwind line instead.

great point--I didn't catch that! I agree, if it is possible; he or she would need to take combat expertise, which means no precision (I assume, since there would not be enough feats?), and also start with a higher INT.

[Ametrine]

4x toughness mostly because I did not see anything else I thought was worth putting it in (any suggestions for next epic reincarnation?)


str with current lvl 21 gear floats around 22 depending on the stance, with golden guile bluff and sneak attack (ninja spy) running most of the time I feel the dps is better but the build does feel weaker against undead than previous shintao str build but I don't have any disruption handwraps at this lvl

only thing I would possibly change in the next epic reincarnation is have dex at 14 and put the left over points in str (I'll have to see at lvl 28 how I fair at EE TOEE and EE Haunted Halls in mountain stance with more endgame gear)

at lvl 28 I'll try and do some quantitative numbers to compare against shintao str build I had previously been before the latest epic reincarnating

[relenttless]

4x toughness mostly because I did not see anything else I thought was worth putting it in (any suggestions for next epic reincarnation?)


str with current lvl 21 gear floats around 22 depending on the stance, with golden guile bluff and sneak attack (ninja spy) running most of the time I feel the dps is better but the build does feel weaker against undead than previous shintao str build but I don't have any disruption handwraps at this lvl

only thing I would possibly change in the next epic reincarnation is have dex at 14 and put the left over points in str (I'll have to see at lvl 28 how I fair at EE TOEE and EE Haunted Halls in mountain stance with more endgame gear)

at lvl 28 I'll try and do some quantitative numbers to compare against shintao str build I had previously been before the latest epic reincarnating

Other feat suggestions that I've tried on my human monk that could replace some or all of your toughness

Magical training- gives you echoes of power and unlimited sp for cocoon
DragonMark of passage for d-door
dodge and mobility

[Red_Knight]

From my experiences as a wisdom based monk, you'll probably want 13 Str minimum and power attack. That extra 5 damage can make a difference. I started at 12 str so I wouldn't have a damage penalty when running ocean stance. Then equip Str items, the best you can get your hands on. Since dex will probably always be higher then str, weapon finesse is probably a good idea too.

[Ametrine]

I did end up swapping one of the toughnesses out for dodge, because I had a flawless stone in my bank.

at lvl 27 I like the max wis precision toon way better than the max str power attack toon for everything except maybe undead but with the high wis jade attacks usually shut them down quickly

as a test run for fun I solo'd EE Servants of the Overlord this morning, it went pretty easy
at lvl 27 (20 monk/7epic) and wearing mostly necro4 gear and tier 2 thunder forged handwraps my ac in mountain stance is around 100 with a 28% dodge, my umd is high enough to to use displacement scrolls if needed but on this quest I did not need to
-the big pull at the beginning after the spider cluster that hammers a lot of pugs was EASY, switched to ocean stance ran in dropped an Everything is Nothing bomb and nothing was left



next epic life I guess I should make a max dex monk, awe the fun of ddo

[DrawingGuy]

I've made many Monk unarmed build types trying to figure out what I liked best. Also did many armed build types, but I'm assuming just unarmed...

Played with stats:

- Max STR DPS build: Maxing STR is obviously to go for max DPS. While unarmed does not get 1.5x stat like SWF and THF does, it does have the advantage of applying full to both main and off-hand attacks, making all stat points put into this flat gains.

- Max DEX "tank" build: Going DEX was by far the worst build I ever made. With Unarmed you have no way to apply DEX to damage, so you're giving up DPS *and* DCs just to gain more AC and Reflex saves? WIS already gives AC, making a DEX build simply give a Reflex advantage. If you care about Reflex that much, twist in +6 Reflex saves once you hit 20. I do not suggest going DEX based as an Unarmed Monk.

- Max WIS DC build: To be honest, this is the best IMO. I don't dump STR, so after all is said and done, I'm only about 20 STR lower than if I tried to max it out (-4 to 6 lower base, -7 level ups, - enhancement/ED STR), and that loss equates to less than a 10% DPS drop. For that DPS drop you gain: AC, Will saves, and DCs. DCs gain you Stunning Fist and Jade Strikes where Helpless helps covers DPS gaps, effective GMoF moves if you go GMoF, Quivering Palm, and is especially useful if you go Dark monk. I consider it worth the trade-off.


Played with Feats:

- PA + cleaves + Monk epic feats: While this set has the most open feats allowing PL feats, OC, and even toughness, I just don't care for Cleaves on unarmed. They are a flat DPS loss, and they face the biggest issue of all: Momentum Swing doesn't work with unarmed. So while, sure, it gives some AoE for mob groups, I feel Whirlwind Attack does that much better. Least favorite option.

- PA + Whirlwind Attack + cleaves: This goal is to max out your AoE DPS. The thing is, though, Monk already struggles on Boss DPS. To give up DPS feats for cleaves (unless you're making a Tree build) is not worth it.

- Whirlwind Attack + Monk epic feats + PA or Precision or Combat Expertise: WWA + Monk feats is the best option in my personal experience. What it really comes down to is what fighting stance to use. Of the three, I consider Power Attack to be the best unless you're maxing out SA line and never tanking. Unarmed simply doesn't have the crit profile to be enough of a gain for the mob groups that need it over the +5 to everything. Though if your STR is starting too low and Precision is your available buy in over a junk feat like Toughness, take it. Still a DPS gain over Combat Expertise. Combat Expertise is not enough of a survival gain to be chosen over PA or Precision, especially after considering rage/Primal Shout loss... but you're taking it to get Whirlwind anyways. If you need to protect against Madstone (really only Light Monks would care about that) or have no other stances, sure... but otherwise I consider taking the extra feat for PA or Precision to be worth it. If you are finding to-hit to be a concern, I'd take and use Precision over getting Weapon Finesse.


Unfortunately this locks you down pretty hard. You have 7 base feats + 3 Monk + 3 Epic for a total of 13 feats (+1 if human):
Stunning Fist
TWF
Improved TWF
Greater TWF
Improved Crit Bludgeoning
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Whirlwind Attack
Improved Martial Arts
Vorpal Strikes

That leaves you only 1 or 2 feats left to choose with. As a Human with no Monk PL and no Completionist, I would take Power Attack and Overwhelming Critical... and bam, all feats used up. Players with past lives have choices and concessions they have to make...