Reminder to Devs: Bravery Bonus and Streak are bad. Let's fix them.

[FestusHood]

I'm not sure i'm a big fan of adding the under level bonus. I think that would still lead newer players to get in over their heads or have trouble finding groups to run at the level they really belong at.

I am in favor of getting rid of the streak bonus at this point, as i can say with certainty that it does prevent some people from joining runs that they otherwise would. More a problem in epic though from my experience. There really are very few people at this point that can't handle running heroic elite at level +2, with the exception of just a few quests.

I don't know how much work it would actually be for the coders to just melt the streak bonus into the first time xp, but i think it would be better if they could do that. Still, i don't see most players running anything but elite in heroics if there is any advantage to it at all. I know i probably wouldn't.

[Uska]

leave my BB and streak alone

[Trillea]

So, there is a thread over in one of the "other forums" that made me think that it's time to bring up how bad the current Bravery Bonus and Streak mechanics are for team-play in DDO. I'm not going to go back into all the arguments, there is a search function for that. Let's just say that many of us feel that way and leave it at that. Once again, I'd like to propose a fundamental change in the way that bonuses are calculated. I feel that these changes would encourage grouping as well as bring back some "challenge" to the game.

1. Eliminate dungeon scaling for all difficulties. Why invite someone you don't know well to your party when their presence may actually make the quest harder? Teams should make things better, not worse.

2. Eliminate "no deaths" bonus. Again, you are discouraging parties with new players when their presence is likely to cause a loss of 10% XP. We can argue all day whether the loss of a bonus is the loss of XP, but the simple fact is that to many people that bonus is expected and it can cause tension when someone dies "foolishly" or because "they are a gimp". Get rid of it and that problem goes away. Add it back into the no re-entry bonus if you are really obsessed about keeping that 10%, but penalizing death in DDO is a source of discrimination between hardcore and casual players.

3. Eliminate Bravery Streak. Too many people now won't run content because it would "ruin their streak". If I see an opening for Tomb of the Tormented on Norm and I really want to do it just to open Cursed Crypt, why should I be penalized? What if my group doesn't feel comfortable running it on Elite? Bravery streak is the single largest killer of LFMs in Heroics that I know. It needs to go.

4. Institute true "Bravery Bonus" by rewarding people doing things above their level, not two levels below. True bravery is doing things that are hard where you might fail. Bravery bonus should be +10% for every level of the highest level in the party UNDER the quest level to a maximum of +50%. You want to be sadistic and provide challenge? Add another 25% for doing it on hard and another 50% for doing it on Elite... but keep the levels based off of the Normal quest level. So for maximum XP when running Coal Chamber, you'd need to run it on Elite at level 11. See? Now *THAT* is a challenge and worthy of being called a Bravery Bonus.

It is my opinion that *this* would make a huge positive improvement to grouping and team-play in DDO.

So basically except for #2 you want it to go back to the old way that the quests' XP were calculated with further bonuses for running further under level.

I approve. I miss trying to run Stormcleave at lvl 4 and 5 for extra XP, THAT was a challenge!

[Kasiddy]

Personally, I don't like Bravery Bonus as implemented for the specific reason that it sometimes keeps me from joining guild groups so I don't ruin my streak. If someone had a way to fix that, I'd be all for it.

Eliminate the streak.
Increase first-time completion bonus on hard by 25%
Increase first-time completion bonus on elite by 50%
Fixed.


The Details:
There are several bonuses you get in quests.
The bravery streak bonus is the one that increases over 5 quests and is the source of the ongoing drama and the one I'm suggesting to eliminate entirely. The streak and the xp bonus tied to it.

There is a different bonus you get for completing a difficulty for the first time in a quest.
This is what people are after when they repeat a quest E/H/N, usually.
This is the top xp line in your xp report and usually reads "First time completing [normal/hard/elite] difficulty."
I am not suggesting a change to this.

Then there is another bonus, also confusingly called a bravery bonus.
It is the second xp line in the report, just below the first time completion line.
It is this bonus I'm suggesting to increase.
The line reads "You have never played this adventure before and have chosen to play on [Elite/Hard] difficulty."
People who are doing once-and-done elites for either heroic or epic should have exactly zero change in the xp they are getting in each quest with this change.
People who opt to complete a quest on a lower difficulty, or run with a group that is a bit overlevel, will have only the over level penalty to deal with, or a lower bonus for completing the quest on a lower difficulty.

The "penalty" does not follow you for the next four quests.
People who play once-and-done elite (either in groups or solo) will have zero change to their xp.
You are not being penalized at all.
People playing at lower difficulties should actually find it easier to get xp because there is nothing to build up over several quests.
These bonuses are also no longer tied to party level. So if you have someone overlevel in your group, you might get a 10% or 25% penalty based on base xp. You would still get all the various first time bonuses, though.

Overall, these changes make xp even easier to come by for average players, with no change for elite players.
One could probably make the argument that it's another form of power creep.
But I can't think of any other way to satisfy feelings of xp entitlement while mostly removing a major disincentive to group.
Mostly I'm tired of seeing people in guild chat saying they can't join something because it will break their streak.
I think this is the simplest and most viable fix.

[blerkington]

So, there is a thread over in one of the "other forums" that made me think that it's time to bring up how bad the current Bravery Bonus and Streak mechanics are for team-play in DDO. I'm not going to go back into all the arguments, there is a search function for that. Let's just say that many of us feel that way and leave it at that. Once again, I'd like to propose a fundamental change in the way that bonuses are calculated. I feel that these changes would encourage grouping as well as bring back some "challenge" to the game.

1. Eliminate dungeon scaling for all difficulties. Why invite someone you don't know well to your party when their presence may actually make the quest harder? Teams should make things better, not worse.

2. Eliminate "no deaths" bonus. Again, you are discouraging parties with new players when their presence is likely to cause a loss of 10% XP. We can argue all day whether the loss of a bonus is the loss of XP, but the simple fact is that to many people that bonus is expected and it can cause tension when someone dies "foolishly" or because "they are a gimp". Get rid of it and that problem goes away. Add it back into the no re-entry bonus if you are really obsessed about keeping that 10%, but penalizing death in DDO is a source of discrimination between hardcore and casual players.

3. Eliminate Bravery Streak. Too many people now won't run content because it would "ruin their streak". If I see an opening for Tomb of the Tormented on Norm and I really want to do it just to open Cursed Crypt, why should I be penalized? What if my group doesn't feel comfortable running it on Elite? Bravery streak is the single largest killer of LFMs in Heroics that I know. It needs to go.

4. Institute true "Bravery Bonus" by rewarding people doing things above their level, not two levels below. True bravery is doing things that are hard where you might fail. Bravery bonus should be +10% for every level of the highest level in the party UNDER the quest level to a maximum of +50%. You want to be sadistic and provide challenge? Add another 25% for doing it on hard and another 50% for doing it on Elite... but keep the levels based off of the Normal quest level. So for maximum XP when running Coal Chamber, you'd need to run it on Elite at level 11. See? Now *THAT* is a challenge and worthy of being called a Bravery Bonus.

It is my opinion that *this* would make a huge positive improvement to grouping and team-play in DDO.

Hi,

I could get behind 1, 2 and 4, but I see no reason at all to agree to 3.

What worries me about it is it sounds like you attempting to give away xp that you wouldn't normally use. I don't really think it's up to you to make that decision on behalf of people who use the bonus xp to do many past lives. If your game plans involves doing a lot of TRing and/or ERing, particularly in a short amount of time, that extra xp is very very important.

I think the situation would be greatly improved by the streak being suspended, rather than lost, if you do a quest which doesn't qualify for the bonus. Other people have even suggested a decrement of your streak if you break it, which would be almost as good. This solution would enable people to preserve their bonus while having the flexibility to go outside it.

I'm also not convinced by the claims that removing BB would improve the grouping situation. If there was a substantial population of people wanting to run quests on normal or hard, then all that needs to happen is for a few souls to put up their own LFMs and people who want to repeat the quests on lower difficulties will appear, as will those who can't or don't want to run elite on first time.

The problem with the claim that BB is ruining groups is that there doesn't seem to be much evidence; it may be true, then again it may not, and I'd hate to lose BB only to find out that grouping is down for some other reasons, like lower populations, increased guild and channel runs, etc.

Thanks.

[AlexIII]

You mistake me. I'm not suggesting we make all the quests "easier" by eliminating scaling. I'm suggesting that the quest has the "elite level difficulty" whether you have 1 or 6 people in quest. Don't make it easier because you want to solo. Make solo have the exact same difficulty as with six people. Then solo is an accomplishment, not a means of making the quest faster and easier.

I wouldn't say end scaling, but reduce it. current balance is at 4 people, lets level it there. apply a small, linear scale so 1 person encounters a dungeon balanced for 2, 2 people get 2.67 dunegon, 3 people get a 3.33 dungeon.
Soloing becomes more difficult, but not quite so impossible as your suggestion, each player significantly reduces the difficulty to encourage people to party.

the no deaths bonus. I wouldn't eliminate it entirely; death should have some penelty; but make it more forgiving. each death takes 1% say.

HTR xp is unplesent; but TR's do get a lot of benefits. seeing bravery made more difficult would be good imo.
If the bravery bonus was boosted, streaks could be eliminated.

Again, XP for quests needs a new look. if its run to get favor and abandoned, it needs more xp or some other changes.

[General_Gronker]

Either you think BB the way it is now is broken or you don't.

Indeed. It's not like there's this thing called the "middle ground" that exists.

Sorry, but you invalidate everything you've said with that little bit up there.

I among many think it is broken and the expression of that is that people won't run content "off streak".

Please cite your sources for "many". Thanks.

[Duskofdead]

You are saying that a lot of people don't like it, and one of the reasons is that everyone is using it... It's a bit like saying no one goes to that bar anymore because it's too crowded... well which is it?

False logic here. If you were fined $500 for walking on the sidewalk, most people wouldn't do it. That wouldn't mean most people "enjoy" that such a fine exists.

[Duskofdead]

I am tired of these kill BB and streak bonus threads ...

I can relate. I'm equally tired of people who have seen the game so long only through the eyes of how to grind xp on multiple-TR'd characters that they support anything that gives them more xp, no matter what it does to the game overall, or to non-TR or more casual players.

If ALL multi-TR'd players care about is xp, I'd rather see the devs change the game to just give TR'd characters no xp penalty, rather than hurt the game and make grouping in an increasingly less populated game more painful and futile for any build/player that can't solo all content in the game on elite with store pots.

My overwhelming experience in attempting to play DDO as a group game in the past several years is having a frankenstein splash enter the party, insist we begin the quest 2 man without waiting for anyone else, on elite, and telling me to use store consumables to deal with healing or unlocking. And then turning around on me and telling me I'm a gimp or whatever else when I do not want to play this way in my own LFM. Anyone who thinks that this kind of experience characterizing normal play doesn't send people who might be your future party & raid members, but are not 37th life characters, packing out of the game is really self-deluding. I don't know how anyone kids themselves that this is good for the game other than by being incredibly blinded by the fixation with remedying TR xp curves for themselves at any cost.

[Xionanx]

I can relate. I'm equally tired of people who have seen the game so long only through the eyes of how to grind xp on multiple-TR'd characters that they support anything that gives them more xp, no matter what it does to the game overall, or to non-TR or more casual players.

If ALL multi-TR'd players care about is xp, I'd rather see the devs change the game to just give TR'd characters no xp penalty, rather than hurt the game and make grouping in an increasingly less populated game more painful and futile for any build/player that can't solo all content in the game on elite with store pots.

My overwhelming experience in attempting to play DDO as a group game in the past several years is having a frankenstein splash enter the party, insist we begin the quest 2 man without waiting for anyone else, on elite, and telling me to use store consumables to deal with healing or unlocking. And then turning around on me and telling me I'm a gimp or whatever else when I do not want to play this way in my own LFM. Anyone who thinks that this kind of experience characterizing normal play doesn't send people who might be your future party & raid members, but are not 37th life characters, packing out of the game is really self-deluding. I don't know how anyone kids themselves that this is good for the game other than by being incredibly blinded by the fixation with remedying TR xp curves for themselves at any cost.

Actually, i would be all for that.

1. Remove "Extra" XP needed for a TR character to cap heroic
2. Remove Bravery Bonus
3. Rejoice

The ONLY reason I or anyone else cares about BB is because you NEED it get through heroic TR's. Apparently its also useful for getting through EPIC's.. but that is an XP balance issue for epics that should be addressed seperately.