Doublestrike vs Offhand Proc % for TWF

[Saekee]

Outside of the fact that offhand weapons only get .5 of the ability score bonus, what is the difference between the two? Doublestrike only affects the mainhand; the offhand hit is based on a percentage as well.

I.e. if you have 10% offhand bonus proc boost such as deft strikes in the Shintao Tree, is that not as good as 10% doublestrike (obviously a little worse given that one does not get the full ability score damage). Is my math wrong here?

Other influences are Perfect TWF which gives a rather unusual 10% doublestrike also to the offhand's normal attack.

thanks in advance.

[UurlockYgmeov]

IIRC doublestrike is chance for a 'double attack' where each attack has a chance for the off hand to proc.

So the higher the doublestrike the more double swings, each with a separate chance for the off and to swing.

[Saekee]

IIRC doublestrike is chance for a 'double attack' where each attack has a chance for the off hand to proc.

So the higher the doublestrike the more double swings, each with a separate chance for the off and to swing.

hi Uurlock--my understanding is that it is mainhand only, hence my comparison--maybe I am mistaken?


doubkestrike is much stronger for SWF and THF than TWF

[xTethx]

Doublestrike is flat out better than off-hand procs. However, you can increase both at the same time, rather than just mass doublestrike. The rare exception of off-hand procs being better than doublestrike is when you can actually enhance off-hand doublestrike (epic destiny feat, tempest enhancement, etc.). Still I'd suggest massing as much of both as possible.

[Saekee]

Doublestrike is flat out better than off-hand procs. However, you can increase both at the same time, rather than just mass doublestrike. The rare exception of off-hand procs being better than doublestrike is when you can actually enhance off-hand doublestrike (epic destiny feat, tempest enhancement, etc.). Still I'd suggest massing as much of both as possible.

Yes--but I was asking mainly because of needing to make choices. Deft Strikes costs 7 AP which I would rather spend elsewhere. I took the elven doublestrike of 3% but deft seems much better, even mandatory

[unbongwah]

I.e. if you have 10% offhand bonus proc boost such as deft strikes in the Shintao Tree, is that not as good as 10% doublestrike (obviously a little worse given that one does not get the full ability score damage). Is my math wrong here?

You are correct: in terms of DPS calcs, doublestrike bonuses are worth more than offhand proc chances due to the +1x vs +0.5x dmg mod of TWF. However, I always try to max out my offhand procs first, because I prefer the near-certainty of getting two hits per atk rather than the DPS "spikes" which come from doublestrikes + less frequent offhand procs.

So the higher the doublestrike the more double swings, each with a separate chance for the off and to swing.

Mainhand doublestrikes do not proc offhand strikes; each hand has its own independent chance of proccing. So you can have up to 4 hits per atk: mainhand, offhand, mainhand doublestrike, offhand doublestrike. Note that the only things which boost offhand doublestrike are Tempest capstone (Dervish) and PTWF, AFAIK.

[Eth]

I.e. if you have 10% offhand bonus proc boost such as deft strikes in the Shintao Tree, is that not as good as 10% doublestrike (obviously a little worse given that one does not get the full ability score damage). Is my math wrong here?

One attack on a TWFer can produce up to 4 hits.

Main hand attack: always 100%
Main hand Doublestrike: chance based on your DS
Offhand attack: 20% - 100% based on feats/enhancements
Offhand Doublestrike: chance based on your offhand DS, if there is an offhand attack made

So what's better... 10% DS or 10% offhand strike? I'll assume you have GTWF and Perfect TWF (which you honestly should always have on a TWF).
Let's make 100 attacks and compare the two:

Variant 1 ... 10% more DS:
Main hand: 100 * 1 = 100
Main hand DS: 100 * 0.15 = 15
Offhand: 100 * 0.8 = 80
Offhand DS: 100 * 0.8 * 0.1 = 8
---
total: 203


Variant 2 ... 10% offhand strike:
Main hand: 100 * 1 = 100
Main hand DS: 100 * 0.05 = 5
Offhand: 100 * 0.9 = 90
Offhand DS: 100 * 0.9 * 0.1 = 9
---
total: 204

Surprised? The extra offhand strike actually gets you one more hit in 100 attacks. But yes, it also gets the penalty of the damage ability mod. Which does more damage depends on your base damage, ability mod and what extra procs you produce on attacks, but it's close either way.

For your more specific question, 10% offhand chance is far better than 3% DS.

Keep in mind though that Deft Strikes only works, if you are centered!

[Saekee]

You are correct: in terms of DPS calcs, doublestrike bonuses are worth more than offhand proc chances due to the +1x vs +0.5x dmg mod of TWF. However, I always try to max out my offhand procs first, because I prefer the near-certainty of getting two hits per atk rather than the DPS "spikes" which come from doublestrikes + less frequent offhand procs.

Mainhand doublestrikes do not proc offhand strikes; each hand has its own independent chance of proccing. So you can have up to 4 hits per atk: mainhand, offhand, mainhand doublestrike, offhand doublestrike. Note that the only things which boost offhand doublestrike are Tempest capstone (Dervish) and PTWF, AFAIK.

One attack on a TWFer can produce up to 4 hits.

Main hand attack: always 100%
Main hand Doublestrike: chance based on your DS
Offhand attack: 20% - 100% based on feats/enhancements
Offhand Doublestrike: chance based on your offhand DS, if there is an offhand attack made

So what's better... 10% DS or 10% offhand strike? I'll assume you have GTWF and Perfect TWF (which you honestly should always have on a TWF).
Let's make 100 attacks and compare the two:

Variant 1 ... 10% more DS:
Main hand: 100 * 1 = 100
Main hand DS: 100 * 0.15 = 15
Offhand: 100 * 0.8 = 80
Offhand DS: 100 * 0.8 * 0.1 = 8
---
total: 203


Variant 2 ... 10% offhand strike:
Main hand: 100 * 1 = 100
Main hand DS: 100 * 0.05 = 5
Offhand: 100 * 0.9 = 90
Offhand DS: 100 * 0.9 * 0.1 = 9
---
total: 204

Surprised? The extra offhand strike actually gets you one more hit in 100 attacks. But yes, it also gets the penalty of the damage ability mod. Which does more damage depends on your base damage, ability mod and what extra procs you produce on attacks, but it's close either way.

For your more specific question, 10% offhand chance is far better than 3% DS.

Keep in mind though that Deft Strikes only works, if you are centered!

Thx Unbongwah and Eth
It is mostly as I suspect--the two are near equals--consider also that unarmed monks get the full ability score damage in the offhand.

I don't suppose that the occasional mainhand miss is a factor in considering offhand effectiveness?

Basically Deft Strikes is a MUST AP spend on centered TWF monks which also means 6-7 AP automatically. It costs tempests 1AP as it is in their core. That makes sense though since it is their specialty.

[Eth]

I don't suppose that the occasional mainhand miss is a factor in considering offhand effectiveness?

Each of the 4 possible hits roll individiually (if they proc in the first place). So they all miss 5% of the time (assuming your to-hit is sufficient).

Basically Deft Strikes is a MUST AP spend on centered TWF monks which also means 6-7 AP automatically. It costs tempests 1AP as it is in their core. That makes sense though since it is their specialty.

Deft strikes and tempest stack, so a 1Monk/3Rgr can already achieve 100% offhand. Remember to be centered.
Tempest does not work for handwraps though.

A last thing is that you can also get the 10% from tempest through half elf dilletante. With a high AP cost of 17 (while picking up a lot useless stuff on the way there) it's not really worth the AP usually.