How is warlock different from wizard or sorcerer in DDO

[Faltout]

Lol good joke, man

But the better joke is:
"People think that less sp means less spells cast."

Your post however is not funny. I don't even know what you're trying to post. Warlocks are coming (no going back), they are desired by many players and their differences from all other classes are easily identified. I don't know what skewing things to make them look the same (like comparing them to bad or badly played PMs) is going to accomplish.

[Iriale]

But the better joke is:
"People think that less sp means less spells cast."

It's not a joke. When the main sp sink is free, you have MORE spell points for instant kills and CC. It's easy of understand. Your PM is very gimp if you never use magic on bosses or mini bosses--- gimp and a burden for your patty, You can't solo if you don't have dps. If you don't contribute on boss dps, you help little to your party. My PM can solo, and can contribute on dps on a party… and, of course, can CC and instantkill.

Your post however is not funny. I don't even know what you're trying to post. Warlocks are coming (no going back), they are desired by many players and their differences from all other classes are easily identified. I don't know what skewing things to make them look the same (like comparing them to bad or badly played PMs) is going to accomplish.

Warlocks bring nothing to the game. They are a CC/instantkill type with the SAME spells than a wizard and free dps and additional SLAs. They are a pay class, and a cheat. Warlocks are coming, yes, on a form useless and as a joke on pay customers. As shadowfail (yes, the 2 packs called an "expansion") or the unfinished, unpolished ToEE. I'm tired, very tired.

[Red_Knight]

Warlocks bring nothing to the game. They are a CC/instantkill type with the SAME spells than a wizard and free dps and additional SLAs. They are a pay class, and a cheat. Warlocks are coming, yes, on a form useless and as a joke on pay customers. As shadowfail (yes, the 2 packs called an "expansion") or the unfinished, unpolished ToEE. I'm tired, very tired.

By your logic new races bring nothing new to the game. And actually, no new classes or races would bring anything new to the game according to your logic.

And here's a question for you, can you name one class added after the game launched that has a 100% new spell list?

Not druids, that's for sure. While they do have a few unique spells, they have as many or more spells taken from other cleric/favored soul lists, as well as ranger spell list.

Not artificer, they also share many spells with wizards and sorcerers. They do get some unique artificer only spells, but that's maybe half their spell list.

Not favored soul either. They have the exact same spell list as clerics.

Even paladins, rangers, and bards didn't have 100% unique spell lists. Bards get spells from the wizard/sorc list and cleric/favored soul list. Rangers get a handful of unique nature based spells such as rams might, and spells from the cleric list. Paladins get some unique spells like Zeal and Virtue, but otherwise take from the Cleric list too.

So go ahead, name one class that has a completely unique spell list.

While your at it, name one melee class that deviates from the "charge in and hit things with a weapon" model. Monks? Nope, they use weapons too. And anyone can use handwraps. Monks just do so better.

[Angelic-council]

Warlocks bring nothing to the game. They are a CC/instantkill type with the SAME spells than a wizard and free dps and additional SLAs. They are a pay class, and a cheat. Warlocks are coming, yes, on a form useless and as a joke on pay customers. As shadowfail (yes, the 2 packs called an "expansion") or the unfinished, unpolished ToEE. I'm tired, very tired.

I agree that many things were copied and.. a little bit dissapointing yes. However, I don't think you actually see the potential of warlocks here. Let me help you to understand.

- Warlock -
• Better DC casting than a wizard undead.
• Passively active universal 60% spell critical damage multiplier.
• Free DPS that scaled with spell power.
• High Mrr and 20% HP boost.

I can go on and on.. but, warlocks are caster type with free DPS (most importantly), how that is not new. When casters run out of mana, they become nearly useless. This is not the case with warlocks.

Please read everything I said above, and go visit a warlock thread (with open mind) and study about them carefully.. I have nothing against you, but it's a shame to say what you said.

[Angelic-council]

I agree that many things were copied and.. a little bit dissapointing yes. However, I don't think you actually see the potential of warlocks here. Let me help you to understand.

- Warlock -
• Better DC casting than a wizard undead.
• Passively active universal 60% spell critical damage multiplier.
• Free DPS that scaled with spell power.
• High Mrr and 20% HP boost.

I can go on and on.. but, warlocks are caster type with free DPS (most importantly), how that is not new. When casters run out of mana, they become nearly useless. This is not the case with warlocks.

Please read everything I said above, and go visit a warlock thread (with open mind) and study about them carefully.. I have nothing against you, but it's a shame to say what you said.

By the way. Remember guys, people were saying warlocks would suck before turbine even released any information. And some people now complaining about invocation and completely refuse to play a class except for TR reasons. I understand if I couldn't build any good warlock character, then I would complain too. But this is not the case today. I successfully completed many EEs already on lammania, much faster than any of those shiradi warlock videos out there. If I could.. you guys can too.

[slarden]

Warlocks bring nothing to the game. They are a CC/instantkill type with the SAME spells than a wizard and free dps and additional SLAs. They are a pay class, and a cheat. Warlocks are coming, yes, on a form useless and as a joke on pay customers.

The warlock plays very differently than wizard/sorc based on my testing. I find it fun to play and think it will be a better alternative for a new player since the 0 sp DPS makes it much more forgiving than wizard or sorc.

I am a bit confused by your words. You call them a "cheat" which seems to imply we are paying for an OP class. Then you say they are "useless" which kind of implies they aren't as good as wizard/sorc. Can you clarify what you mean?

Overall I think warlock is very solid as a casting class. I haven't tried out melee yet.

[HAL]

It's not a joke. When the main sp sink is free, you have MORE spell points for instant kills and CC. It's easy of understand. Your PM is very gimp if you never use magic on bosses or mini bosses--- gimp and a burden for your patty, You can't solo if you don't have dps. If you don't contribute on boss dps, you help little to your party. My PM can solo, and can contribute on dps on a party… and, of course, can CC and instantkill.


Warlocks bring nothing to the game. They are a CC/instantkill type with the SAME spells than a wizard and free dps and additional SLAs. They are a pay class, and a cheat. Warlocks are coming, yes, on a form useless and as a joke on pay customers. As shadowfail (yes, the 2 packs called an "expansion") or the unfinished, unpolished ToEE. I'm tired, very tired.

They bring a new class to experiment with. If you don't like them, don't use them - simple. [Not sure why you are talking about being tired...]

[Iriale]

When I say "useless" I do not mean that warlocks are bad, on the contrary, they have been given the same role than another class with advantages and higher DC. Warlocks are good, but useless for the game because brings nothing new and devalues existing classes. It does not seem fair. I would have loved warlocks if devs had created a new class, a real warlock. But this is not a warlock, is a copy of existing arcane classes with an up to make us pay for it, and, I repeat, devalues existing classes. So I consider it a cheat. If turbine gives me a real warlock, I will be delighted. But they do not want to take the time to create a new class (although they want that we pay for this copy!) I'm tired of turbine gives us things in which they have not worked enough: as Shadowfell, too small to be an expansion. As ToEE, which clearly needed more work before of his release. Or this class, in which there is too much copy-and-paste and very little new.

I agree that many things were copied and.. a little bit dissapointing yes. However, I don't think you actually see the potential of warlocks here. Let me help you to understand.

- Warlock -
• Bett
er DC casting than a wizard undead.
• Passively active universal 60% spell critical damage multiplier.
• Free DPS that scaled with spell power.
• High Mrr and 20% HP boost.

I can go on and on.. but, warlocks are caster type with free DPS (most importantly), how that is not new. When casters run out of mana, they become nearly useless. This is not the case with warlocks.

Please read everything I said above, and go visit a warlock thread (with open mind) and study about them carefully.. I have nothing against you, but it's a shame to say what you

If you don't see a problem with a new (and not free) class that has the same spells than other class, the same role, better DC casting, better and free dps, better defences… heh. Why not eliminate Wizard of existing classes? And if this class is successful, which will be the next class to be copied and improved, and become pay to play?

And I repeat, I also tried the warlock in Lammania.


I hope you now understand a little better what I said before. I know that my English is not good, and I apologize for that.

[Angelic-council]

If you don't see a problem with a new (and not free) class that has the same spells than other class, the same role, better DC casting, better and free dps, better defences… heh. Why not eliminate Wizard of existing classes? And if this class is successful, which will be the next class to be copied and improved, and become pay to play?

And I repeat, I also tried the warlock in Lammania.


I hope you now understand a little better what I said before. I know that my English is not good, and I apologize for that.

Please don't apologize, it's ok.

I understand what you mean. Warlocks play differently than other arcane classes.
- Warlock has to leave his main destiny (primal) in order to maximize his DC, so he can compete with wizards in instant kill battle = - 6 caster level (6 spell pen).
- Warlock has very limited arcane spell list, regular wizard/sorcerer can out perform warlocks because of that limitation. No caster/max caster bonus/no spell pen bonus (atm).
- Wizards get 5 extra feats and the ability to self heal, buff and massive debuff. Warlocks don't, except small baby heal and standard feat selection.
- Warlock has limited spell pool. -50%.

Well.. there are more. But, warlock has something special that other casters don't, and it's not something that replaceable by any other casters. But it doesn't mean warlocks will be better than wizard/sorcerers. And it doesn't mean wizard will beat warlocks all the time. I think it's fairly balanced.

I can see my wizard perform better. But I'm very confident that my warlock can also take down wizard. I just need to change my build, and choose the right class. I would probably be unleashing powerful SLAs thanks to 60% crit damage, but with the small spell crit chance and no cloudkill, acid raid etc.. hmm.. just spam eldritch blast. But, more DC and crit damage is just "wow".

If warlocks were "that" powerful, then everyone will complain and acuse turbine for p2w. How about warlock without DC and spell crit? It's too weak then, nobody will play. Right now, I think it's fairly balanced. And warlock bring something different to the game.

[Powskier]

Newest cash cow for Turbine?

Maybe,maybe not? they had to offer Morninglord at 80% off i think it was ,for me to look at buying that one. I dont need a sorcerlockwiz whatever..though it may be fun.
I hope no one buys this one and it is 80% off , 6 weeks after it comes out.
They coulda made this Warlock type of caster with an enhancement tree to sorcerer update...though it sounds like a caster bard calling himself warlock,and getting free range spell attack type thing.

[TheGuyYouKnow]

warlock is a shiradi caster, there is nothing else to say

[Iriale]

] Please don't apologize, it's ok.

Thank you. I try to be clear, but not always I am successful.

]- Warlock has to leave his main destiny (primal) in order to maximize his DC, so he can compete with wizards in instant kill battle = - 6 caster level (6 spell pen).

Sev said that devs will revise his link to primal, and although I can not remember well, I think my warlock began on the arcane sphere in lammania. I am not sure, because I filled all EDs before to start testing in epic, but I think so. I did not pay attention to that detail. In any case, is Exalted Angel which gives the maximum DC to a warlock, but still is a great ED.

- Warlock has very limited arcane spell list, regular wizard/sorcerer can out perform warlocks because of that limitation. No caster/max caster bonus/no spell pen bonus (atm).

It is the theory. In practice, the warlock I did in lammania had all the important CC and instantkill spells that I use with wizard, except mind fog, although crushing despair is a perfectly useful substitute (I love crushing despair on EE, although 4 lv spells is a tough level for a liche: death aura, negative burst and DD are mandatory). The rest of the spells that my wizard has and my warlock had not, are damage spells (and warlock has free dps) or knock (the only “loss” of warlock, and it’s not a great loss)

See, the warlock I did in Lamma with the fey pact had mass hold monster, irresistible dance, dancing otto sphere, web, blind, wail, finger of death, circle of death, blur, displacement, greater heroism, deathblock, protection from elements, energy drain and crushing despair spells as important spells (had a few more too, but less useful, as detect secret door or obscuring mist). Tainted scholar and the pact give a lot of spells!

Well, all these spells are the bread and the butter of the wizard. What spell that is not in this list has in live your wizard? (spell not dps –remember, the warlock dps is free- and that is useful, of course) What CC or instantkill spell has the wizard and no the warlock? I can’t see none. You can do a divine spellcaster, and it feels different to a DC wizard (both have good necro spells, for example, but the divine has worse enchantment spells and better healing/buffs for the party) You can do a bard, and feels very different to a wizard, although both share many enchantment spells (but don’t share a lot more of things and spells!) But this DDO warlock?

]- Wizards get 5 extra feats and the ability to self heal, buff and massive debuff. Warlocks don't, except small baby heal and standard feat selection

Nowadays better enhancement trees is >>>>> more feats. Enhancements are a lot more powerful than feats, and the warlock has very superior trees. What get wizard with more feats? Better DC? No, wizards don’t have better DC. Better DPS? No, wizards don’t have better dps. Better mana efficiency? No, wizards don’t get better mana efficiency. What is the feat that does a wizard superior in something to warlock? Wizards have access to more spells for debuff, but seriously--- with energy drain and crushing despair the warlocks are fine in this regard. Better healing? Undead wizards maybe, but with the cure moderate SLA (free in sp!! O.o ) the warlocks are not bad too, and have better defences.

The wizard can have an edge on spell penetration over the warlock with their feats, but in truth, the difference is minimal in toons with the right past lifes. You don’t spend more than one spell penetration feat on a wizzie with the +9 penetration for past lifes. You use these feats on spell focus… heh other classes have more DC on their enhancements trees (Warlocks are very good in this regard!!) and/or their destiny (exalted angel and his +3 general DC…)

Sev said that devs will add spell penetration on the tainted tree. Perhaps wizards have an edge on this, but is tiny… and you know, against high SR mobs, at the end the best is use spells without SR.

- Warlock has limited spell pool. -50%.

Less sp, but I have found that is enough for his spells. Seriously, you are underestimating too much how many spell points are invested in bosses and mini bosses on a wizard. The mana efficiency of a wizard when dps is not bad- is terrible. And say “I never spend magic in a boss with a wizard” is unrealistic (the bosses exist, and there are a lot in epics!!) or places the wizard in a worse position regards warlocks . Because then it would be like saying that the wizard is infinitely worse than the warlock because he can not solo or help the party with bosses. In truth, wizards can help with bosses --- but they are not good against bosses and pay a high price in spell points. When I play my wizards, I don’t need to use even half of their blue bar in the CC / instankill duty, are the bosses who drain their blue bars to the bottom, and more.

Well.. there are more. But, warlock has something special that other casters don't, and it's not something that replaceable by any other casters. But it doesn't mean warlocks will be better than wizard/sorcerers. And it doesn't mean wizard will beat warlocks all the time. I think it's fairly balanced.

In which wizards/sorcerers are better than warlocks? Wizards have lost their DC supremacy since a time ago, but before warlocks they had an edge for their spell list. Yes, bards have their enchantament spells, but not spells of other schools. Yes, divines have necro spells as good as wizards spells… but don’t have enchantament spells of same quality. But warlock… warlock has all, with better DC, with dps free, with additional CC SLAs (stunning, confusion...)!!!!

If warlocks had just some of the major arcane spells ... but they have access to all important spells. DDO is not as PnP, where there are hundreds of spells that wizards can choose. The list of available spells is reduced in DDO, and the list of spells that work in epic in a build is much smaller. So, warlocks have all –I repeat, all- important spells of the wizard. How could it not be an intrusion? How it can not devaluate the wizards? The designers have done a great job in the past differentiating wizards and sorcerers (which is not easy, because both share the same spell list-- but they succeeded), devs did a great job creating new classes with a different flavor to the existing (artificiers, monks, druids) Here there is no differentiation between wizards and warlocks. Both have the same important spells. Warlocks have free dps and wizards terrible and expensive dps. Wizards have more spells for choose, but none that is useful and make a difference. Wizards have more feats, but the enhancement perks are better for warlock.

Honestly, only a deep spell pass, making viable spells that do not work now in DDO (in heroics and / or epics), and introducing new spells would create distinctive niches for the wizard and this "warlock". But now, with the tiny spell list that we currently have, the DDO warlock has everything that is important for the wizards with additional advantages. I see a problem, really. With the tiny spell list of DDO, the limited spell selection of warlock regards the broader spell selection of the wizard is an illusion.


The warlock, who is very different in pnp, has been turned into a primary spellcaster, with all spells traditionally important for the wizard in DDO (I repeat, all, not some, ALL), and also have other advantages. Eldritch blast gives you a different feeling when playing them? Yes, but is still a class that does the same as other previous class... the same and better.

I can see my wizard perform better. But I'm very confident that my warlock can also take down wizard. I just need to change my build, and choose the right class. I would probably be unleashing powerful SLAs thanks to 60% crit damage, but with the small spell crit chance and no cloudkill, acid raid etc.. hmm.. just spam eldritch blast. But, more DC and crit damage is just "wow".

I can’t see how a wizard can match to a well built warlock. Warlocks have been given too many arcane perks, with more advantages: dps free, additional control with SLAs (stunning, confusion ...), better defences… Devs need drop some of the spells of warlocks and/or create new spells, or the overlapping is too big.

Understand me, I don’t want to insult to the designers. I respect their work. I do not like to complain for complaining. I’m not opposed to new classes. The primary roles are covered, but the roles were covered when devs created artis, druids, etc, and they managed to create these classes without devaluate previous classes and giving to the new classes a particular flavour and usefulness. Warlocks share too much with wizards--- too much!!!! I wish devs had created a real warlock, and I was curious to know how they would adapt to the DDO. But lately I'm not agree on a few things (well, more than a few…) that devs have done, and this in particular seems to me a mistake, a big mistake. They should not create a new class with such overlap.

How about warlock without DC and spell crit? It's too weak then, nobody will play. Right now, I think it's fairly balanced. And warlock bring something different to the game.

But I don’t want underpowered warlocks. I want warlocks different to other classes. There is not necessity of create such overlap. See the pnp warlock--- is VERY different to this “warlock”. Ok, devs want something different to pnp. Ok, but why create a class that is almost a copy of wizard, with new additions? There are a lot more of possibilities. If they need more time for the design, we don’t have rush. I prefer wait and obtain a true new class that obtain the next month this copy. In truth, this copy will angry me. I don't think that warlock bring something different to the game---only a bad thing, devaluate a previous class.

Is the same than the paladin and fighter. Devs should have revisited together fighter and pallies, then they could have balanced the dps/tactics of one with the dps/defences of the other. But not, we are yet waiting, with the fighter as a worse option and a pallie as a very superior class. meh. meh. Seriously, some problems could be avoided with a little care.

[psteen1]

I'm not sure what you all are smoking.

With the eldritch blast, the warlock is probably the most unique class yet. Except for perhaps artificers with their rune arm or druids with shape change. I see warlocks playing different than pretty much anything currently existing.

[Iriale]

I'm not sure what you all are smoking.

With the eldritch blast, the warlock is probably the most unique class yet. Except for perhaps artificers with their rune arm or druids with shape change. I see warlocks playing different than pretty much anything currently existing.

yes, this is unique to warlocks. But then, why they share all the important spells of the wizzie? What has unique the wizzie now? and no, no say "a broader spell selection", when that is an illussion en DDO, between the small spell list and the smaller number of spells that work in epics.

[slarden]

yes, this is unique to warlocks. But then, why they share all the important spells of the wizzie? What has unique the wizzie now? and no, no say "a broader spell selection", when that is an illussion en DDO, between the small spell list and the smaller number of spells that work in epics.

I am guess I am more interested in playstyle variation vs. spell variation.

I think they did a good job at developing a new playstyle even though the spell selection is basically the same. Let's face it - they don't have the resources to mirror P&P warlock exactly. I think they did a great job with the small team they have.

[Dreppo]

The biggest difference though is the Eldrich Bolt ability, although DDO is calling it an eldrich blast.

It's called Eldritch Blast in D&D too. Where are you getting Eldritch Bolt from?

[Red_Knight]

When I say "useless" I do not mean that warlocks are bad, on the contrary, they have been given the same role than another class with advantages and higher DC. Warlocks are good, but useless for the game because brings nothing new and devalues existing classes. It does not seem fair. I would have loved warlocks if devs had created a new class, a real warlock. But this is not a warlock, is a copy of existing arcane classes with an up to make us pay for it, and, I repeat, devalues existing classes. So I consider it a cheat. If turbine gives me a real warlock, I will be delighted. But they do not want to take the time to create a new class (although they want that we pay for this copy!) I'm tired of turbine gives us things in which they have not worked enough: as Shadowfell, too small to be an expansion. As ToEE, which clearly needed more work before of his release. Or this class, in which there is too much copy-and-paste and very little new.

So, what you're mad about is that warlocks have the same role as other casters... That role is, what? Insta kill casting? Crowd Control casting? Dealing damage? Not sure how to break this to you, but EVERY caster can be built to be dps, crowd control, or insta kill.

If they gave you a "real" warlock, you know what you'd be complaining about? That your invocations are less effective then other arcane spells. Thing is, most of the non-blast invocations duplicate an arcane spell in a weaker form. Why do you feel they needed to reinvent the wheel in DDO when there were already spells with those effects? And even if they did give you those invocations you want, there would probably be spell point costs to use them. Or cooldowns which would make using them all the time impractical. That said, you DO get invocations as a warlock in DDO.

They are in the enhancement tree. All those enhancements that let you change the nature of your blasts? Those are invocations. The displacment SLA? That's also an invocation. Things in the Tainted Scholor tree that give you things like confusion and mass confusion that only cost you having to attack foes a bit first? Invocations too. So, what's your complaint again?

If you don't see a problem with a new (and not free) class that has the same spells than other class, the same role, better DC casting, better and free dps, better defences… heh. Why not eliminate Wizard of existing classes? And if this class is successful, which will be the next class to be copied and improved, and become pay to play?

You seem to forget that the dps does have a save. What kind of save depends on your pact. So you could very well be seeing Evade quite often. Speaking of which, Evasion mobs are currently Evading will save blasts as well as reflex save blasts. And when they evade, that blast is doing zero damage because they avoid both the pact and base damage. Not to mention on Epic Normal mobs are saving frequently unless you build and gear specifically for your blast, which is evocation DC. Which means you see damages in the single digits quite regularly. Gearing and selecting feats for necromancy insta-kills or landing crowd control means your blasts will be doing less damage due to enemies saving more often.

Yeah, you could build for DC casting. And you could do so very well, while your SP holds out. But you probably wont be replacing wizards and sorcerers who are filling the same role. Here's the thing though, all warlock bonus feats go towards the ONE warlock specific feat available each time. The majority of a warlock's DC casting will be actual spells that are suppose to represent your invocations. Thus you're feat starved. If you load up on meta magic, what are you giving up to get them?

While it looks like warlocks have the same amount of SP as wizards, wizards can make it go farther due to being able to reduce the cost of metamagic. Meaning that a wizard's spell points can and probably will last longer then a warlock's spell points if trying to DC cast.

But that ignores the fact that warlocks just flat out don't play the same as a wizard or sorcerer.

And I repeat, I also tried the warlock in Lammania.


I hope you now understand a little better what I said before. I know that my English is not good, and I apologize for that.

If you actually gave them a fair shake on Lammania, not sure why you are so upset. You should have already realized he differences in playstyle used for warlocks vs used by wizards and sorcerers. And if you were playing your warlock the exact same way you would a wizard, then it's no wonder you didn't notice what sets the class apart from other arcane casters.

And I expect once they fix some of the problems, like the defensive toggles and passives in Enlightened Spirit not working (I'm looking at you Shield and Aura of Courage) then the playstyle difference should be even more obvious.