Holy-Sword and Improved critical are being changed, or are not being changed?

[Gremmlynn]

You are probably right but 10 is easier to multiply in my head and serves the purpose of illustration just fine. I didn't forget anything, I just made the example simple to show that +1[W] has more impact than the expanded crit range and to explain why it was nerfed already.

Except your math was wrong because you exaggerated the gain for a single damage [W] while not showing the true value of the crit range by ignoring much of what it multiplies. My pali runs around now with 4.5[w] and cleaves for 3 or 5 more and likely has more +[w] bonuses I can't think of right now. Another +1[w] is of a lot less value to me than multiplying all those other +[w]'s as well as my strength bonus and my +11 enhancement bonus and every other base damage bonus and my seeker bonus (that I don't get at all on non crits) by 3 10% more often. Even if they take imp crit away from the bonus I'd rather that 5% more often than an average 5 extra base damage.

Here is a closer approximation of the values. Falchion = 5 average damage, 15-20/x3: 13x5+6x(5x3)=+155 damage over 20 swings. One would need to do a mere 38.75 average damage for the extra 2 crits to simply break even. 77.5 without imp crit.

Basically, you would be right for about the first 4 levels or so and be very wrong as soon as imp crit is had.

[Axeyu]

You are being too simple. Difficulty level of the quest is one way that people are challenged. The other is through playing the different types of character classes.

No. There is not supposed to be a difference in difficulty vs the enviorment among the different classes. This is obvious from how they have nerfed and buffed classes to make them equally powerful against the enviorment.
Some are mechanically harder to play, but once you learn you have the same challenge as the others.

If all the classes were equivalent then there would be no need for them. They are not meant to be equal. D&D never meant for them to be equal. DDO never meant for them to be equal. Each class is meant to present different challenges to the player, to be deliberately unequal, and to be unbalanced against one another yet balanced against the game itself.

If every character does the same DPS, has the same AC/PRR/MRR/melee power/ranged power/spell power/attack speed, is able to self buff/heal/crowd control/etc. then you have class balance but you have no need for multiple classes.

Luckliy no one is asking for that, please stop making strawmen.

And again, you use the word balanced right but somehow it means something completely different to you. Balanced against the game does not simply mean "making sure they can beat the game". It means that they are about equally powerful vs the enviorment.

This whole argument could have ended long time ago if you just looked up Balance in a dictionary. It doesn't mean the opposite just because it's pve.

A=B=C is not the norm, A=/=B=/=C is the norm.

Name some modern RPG/MMO/ARPG that doesn't do "A=B=C" then?

That is why RP groups form parties. If you want to do your sword and board fantasy and the game is too hard then you need to find a different answer -- a new strategy or something to enable you to succeed. No game can balance for your individual want. If the game is too easy then you need to play a different game or a different class -- something to make the game more of a challenge. Again, no game is going to balance just for you.

There are plenty of classes and they are and should be unequal and unbalanced. Find the one (or the multiclass of two or three) that makes the game neither too easy nor too hard.

That is what DDO does. It is why it is not a different game.

No, that is not what DDO does. Here the classes are roughly equal in power and you select the difficulty that suits you when you enter the quest.

[Khatzhas]

460 is the result of the +1[W], that is the biggest number in the example. Yes, it did have more impact.

I think he is pointing out that your example wasn't an accurate depiction of the actual game.

The simplifications that you used (Very high W damage, only 1(W) base weapon, no additional damage from stat/magical bonuses etc) all skew the example in the same direction: to show that +1(W) is greater impact than +1 crit range, where in the actual game, this is not the case.

[Gremmlynn]

True enough. I was only going for simple to illustrate why +1[W] got the nerf.

In the case of weapon damage the reality is that at low levels certain things have bigger impacts and at higher levels other things do. Depending on how you construct the model different changes have different impacts.

The problem is generalizing too much from them. For example, you suggest 50+ additional damage for criticals. Another post suggested 60.

That's probably valid for a lot of players -- and completely invalid for a lot more. I've run a L28 paladin and never come close to that number in the bonus damage category. Leaving aside that I'm completely gimp as both a person and a player, not to mention the character itself, I've seldom had problem holding my own in any quest by any measure (kills, last one standing, please somebody save us, whatever).

Really? Deadly 8 and seeker 6 is easy, 10 enhancement is easy these days, modified str bonus of 20 is pretty easy with divine might. There is 46 right there without looking to hard and with rather below average gear.

[Gremmlynn]

There is actually going to be some place where +1[W] and +1 crit range come relatively well balanced. I doubt that anyone figured out where that point was or that they compared it to "regular" gimps like the characters I play. Maybe that would be more instructive.

Still, I wasn't forgetting -- I just wanted to give the simplified illustration because I think that is the limit of complex thinking that goes into Turbine decisions. And, honestly, I don't feel like working all the variables to find where the break even point is between +1[W] and +1 crit range.

Somewhere around level 5 I would guess. By level 9, when imp crit becomes available to double the effect of crit range, it far outpaces a mere +1[w].

Edit:And I just remembered that holysword isn't even available until level 14 anyway. So, crit range will pretty much always be better.

[Powskier]

Crit Range + is an old topic ,players talked about w the Monk earth stance adding to archer -monks multiplier. Leave it alone , or nerf it it isnt our decision....but loud crying should NoT get devs attention here...other classes have crit range stuff too, just not all them.

[AdamSmith]

....but loud crying should NoT get devs attention here...other classes have crit range stuff too, just not all them.

Replies: 297 Views: 6,661

A very popular topic for a three day old thread. What could all this be noise about. O that's right. Paladins getting stabbed in the behind by their godfathers, the developers.

[fmalfeas]

Really, the +1[w] was only really super impressive with things like EAGA, Insurrection, Sever...those weapons with an abnormally large damage die. And for paladins, if they really want to unstack Imp Crit and Holy Sword completely...please give us the 1[w] back. I'd rather have an old-school 2nd ed crit rate (only nat 20), with steady, significant (but not overwhelming) damage on a paladin than be beholden to Precision and married to Dragon's Edge Scimitars, Falchions, and Rapiers because our Smites really are /only/ good if they crit, and if we use Sacred Defender stance, we can't use Adrenaline to force the issue.

Speaking from experience, if my standard hit would do 50ish base damage, my exalted smite will do 80ish...or crit for 500. If those crit-smites are gonna become unreliable again, that's gonna deflate the DPS severely, and cause a re-evaluation of the AP value of the smite enhancements. And, like early MoTU days, have Confront Any Foe be preferable to smites for paladins.

Considering the general take on Confront Any Foe, that shouldn't make anyone feel good. I don't want to spend 2 hours in a back and forth slugfest with a dragon again, effectively immortal, but unable to kill it in a remotely reasonable timeframe.

(I may be exaggerating slightly. It was at least 1 hour in fact, may have been 1.5 to 2, but by then I was half-asleep, fighting mostly by rote and spite. A paladin with ConOpp doesn't go down easy.)

[Hammertop]

When I started this thread 300 posts ago.... wow that is a lot.

Anyway, 300 post ago I never said whether I was for or against the change to Holy-sword, to me it's pointless to be too hung up on it or bang on about it publicly, some things will change some things won't. It's Turbine's world they make the choices in-game. Instead I made a effort to separate fact from rumor so the members of the player population could prepare and adjust for it. Thanks to Severlin's willingness to post a clarification that happened.

That said, the vehemence of both sides in the issue is rather remarkable, and these disproportionate responses both for and against a change are no doubt at the heart of Turbine's reluctance (or one might say excuse) to notify the players base well in advance of changes.

While I doubt that any of the exceptionally loud forum "celebrities" who have tried to co-opt this thread will take heed of what I'm going to suggest I'm going to try anyway.

Let me point out that if you would all calm the hell down, and not act like a change or no change was the end of the world the rest of us in the silent masses might have a better chance to prepare and adjust for changes.

If Turbine felt they could be frank and honest about their plans without having someone whip up a angry mob, it's reasonable to believe that they would. I can't imagine tip-toeing around sacred cows can be what professional designers would choose, at Turbine or anywhere else.

I will take this chance to thank Severlin for clearing things up over a dozen pages ago, and I would encourage all you Factional figureheads to move on to a new thread and let this one fade gracefully down the page count.

Please.

[bartharok]

Every change is the end of the world, and spells ruination to every toon people have.

But for some reason the worlds are still up (mostly), and the toons still playable.

[AdamSmith]

BYOH turned DDO into a game that needed to give a class the ability to heal itself by hitting mobs in the face with an ax in order to be a viable play choice.

No, other games in MMO market showed that DDO's healing options were deficient. BYOH is the gold standard across all MMOs now although it comes in different names. Every class needs self-healing options. Players don't want to wait for healbots or want to depend on sketchy AI hirelings.

Does DDO have enough self-healing options? In epics yes in heroics no, at least not for the newbies.

Self-healing mechanics like whacking enemies for health, delayed healing, etc. are needed at the first level of every class not just the ones you think should play the healer role. Turbine could look for inspiration from games like Guild Wars 1 and 2 for other ways to implement more self-healing.

If they dread the loss of health potion sales, guess what, they don't even advertise it enough. Plus their DDO Store potions are Weak. They don't provide enough bang for the buck. DDO Store potions should be functioning more like heal scrolls at least with 200+ hp recovered per pop.

[AbyssalMage]

Something is overpowered when it makes no sense to play something else.

This is currently the case.

Really? Bard and Barbarian don't interest you? How about the other EE viable builds that still are EE viable? Still none interest you? Maybe you should pick a new game

It further becomes a problem in an MMO that was already one of the easiest on the market. It further decreases challenge, and there isn't much audience for that. You don't often hear good things about easy games. "Hey, that game was so easy and lacked so much challenge. It was so awesome!"

Sorry missed that memo. I know I read the ToEE reports. Nothing about "easy" in it. Read the Epic GoP report, ditto...
Ok, read about the raid...you got me, finally :P

Paladins need a nerf, and it makes sense that Holy Sword is where that nerf comes because as it stands now, most classes that can be multiclassed with paladin are most optimal with a 15 paladin splash. Obviously that isn't balanced correctly.

"15 Paladin splash", your own words!!! 15 (or 14) levels is NOT, I repeat, not a splash.

Ok, as you can tell, I can't take you or anyone who sounds like you seriously. Too bad Turbine does. Yes I understand Holy Sword is going to be "less holy", yet the mentality that 14 levels of Paladin is only considered a "splash" makes me shake my head.

[AbyssalMage]

...

[CeltEireson]

If they dread the loss of health potion sales, guess what, they don't even advertise it enough. Plus their DDO Store potions are Weak. They don't provide enough bang for the buck. DDO Store potions should be functioning more like heal scrolls at least with 200+ hp recovered per pop.

They do - the top tier potions do 130 plus 130-260 hitpoints over the next 10 seconds, factor in a reasonable level of healing amp and even the initial burst of healing is over 200. Longer cooldown on them than standard potions mind.

[Warrax23]

When I started this thread 300 posts ago.... wow that is a lot.

Anyway, 300 post ago I never said whether I was for or against the change to Holy-sword, to me it's pointless to be too hung up on it or bang on about it publicly, some things will change some things won't. It's Turbine's world they make the choices in-game. Instead I made a effort to separate fact from rumor so the members of the player population could prepare and adjust for it. Thanks to Severlin's willingness to post a clarification that happened.

That said, the vehemence of both sides in the issue is rather remarkable, and these disproportionate responses both for and against a change are no doubt at the heart of Turbine's reluctance (or one might say excuse) to notify the players base well in advance of changes.

While I doubt that any of the exceptionally loud forum "celebrities" who have tried to co-opt this thread will take heed of what I'm going to suggest I'm going to try anyway.

Let me point out that if you would all calm the hell down, and not act like a change or no change was the end of the world the rest of us in the silent masses might have a better chance to prepare and adjust for changes.

If Turbine felt they could be frank and honest about their plans without having someone whip up a angry mob, it's reasonable to believe that they would. I can't imagine tip-toeing around sacred cows can be what professional designers would choose, at Turbine or anywhere else.

I will take this chance to thank Severlin for clearing things up over a dozen pages ago, and I would encourage all you Factional figureheads to move on to a new thread and let this one fade gracefully down the page count.

Please.

Turbine has never been "frank" or "honest" with us. And the Angry mob is a last ditch effort of people to try to keep people around.

Holy sword has made people play pallies... guess what... the key word there isn't pally, it's PLAY. People are playing.. if HS keeps them playing and the doors open, who cares. If barbs being over power keeps people paying for the game, who cares. The game is already in a shambles and alienating and upsetting what little player base we have left is a pretty quick and easy way to get the power turned off. But I've already made my peace with it, if they nerf holy sword it is the final straw, and will allow me to break my addiction to this game. So it's a win win for me no matter what they do, so who does it hurt... answer that truthfully and you may get some insight as to why people are so upset.

[jalont]

Really? Bard and Barbarian don't interest you? How about the other EE viable builds that still are EE viable? Still none interest you? Maybe you should pick a new game

There is no reason to play bard. Barbs are actually the strongest class, but paladins remain the strongest class for non-vet players.

There's no reason to play anything else. DDO has become so easy that the only challenge is time spent grinding, whether that's xp, loot, whatever, so it only makes sense to play the class that gets this done the fastest. For good players, that's barbarian. For bad players, that's paladin. Obviously something is wrong here.

Sorry missed that memo. I know I read the ToEE reports. Nothing about "easy" in it. Read the Epic GoP report, ditto...
Ok, read about the raid...you got me, finally :P

EE ToEE is an incredibly easy quest with a "complicated" endfight that causes challenge UNTIL you figure it out. Then it's just as easy. EE Orchard was literally the easiest pack Turbine ever released. We were soloing that content on EE literally our first time through without failure.

"15 Paladin splash", your own words!!! 15 (or 14) levels is NOT, I repeat, not a splash.


Ok, as you can tell, I can't take you or anyone who sounds like you seriously. Too bad Turbine does. Yes I understand Holy Sword is going to be "less holy", yet the mentality that 14 levels of Paladin is only considered a "splash" makes me shake my head.

Well, why would you take more than five levels of Ranger for instance? Heck, even after the rogue pass, most people are better off taking no more than six level of rogue and 14 levels of paladin. You seem to not understand how this game is played.

[Robai]

No, other games in MMO market showed that DDO's healing options were deficient. BYOH is the gold standard across all MMOs now although it comes in different names. Every class needs self-healing options. Players don't want to wait for healbots or want to depend on sketchy AI hirelings.

Does DDO have enough self-healing options? In epics yes in heroics no, at least not for the newbies.

Self-healing mechanics like whacking enemies for health, delayed healing, etc. are needed at the first level of every class not just the ones you think should play the healer role. Turbine could look for inspiration from games like Guild Wars 1 and 2 for other ways to implement more self-healing.

If they dread the loss of health potion sales, guess what, they don't even advertise it enough. Plus their DDO Store potions are Weak. They don't provide enough bang for the buck. DDO Store potions should be functioning more like heal scrolls at least with 200+ hp recovered per pop.

My thoughts are 100% the opposite!

DDO is becoming just another game, i.e. nothing special, nothing unique (I mean it should NOT be like other MMOs!).
All classes are byoh now, which is really sad.

If newbies find this game too easy then this game will die even faster.

You want even more p2w options? Really?
The more p2w options the faster game dies.

[Hammertop]

Turbine has never been "frank" or "honest" with us. And the Angry mob is a last ditch effort of people to try to keep people around.

Holy sword has made people play pallies... guess what... the key word there isn't pally, it's PLAY. People are playing.. if HS keeps them playing and the doors open, who cares. If barbs being over power keeps people paying for the game, who cares. The game is already in a shambles and alienating and upsetting what little player base we have left is a pretty quick and easy way to get the power turned off. But I've already made my peace with it, if they nerf holy sword it is the final straw, and will allow me to break my addiction to this game. So it's a win win for me no matter what they do, so who does it hurt... answer that truthfully and you may get some insight as to why people are so upset.

I can see no reason you tagged this onto my plea for sanity, really can't, but let me see what I can give you here;

I didn't say that Turbine had been frank or honest. In fact I said that the drama queens on both sides of the Holy Sword issue and many others (not referring to you personally BTW) make Turbine reluctant or give Turbine an excuse not to be up front and frankly warn us in advance.

The angry mobs are just vanity parades for the respective doomsayers and Fanbois, more in service of ego than the game.

I'm not going to "debate" the pro's and con's of nerfing Holy-Sword, god knows there are waaaaay to many people already gagging to do it on both sides. My only relevant opinion to your position is that players need to have advance warning of such large changes.

I started this thread, I have a a understanding of why people on both sides are so upset. What I don't have is a lot of patience for is the grandstanding some folks on both sides seem compelled to do on every thread with some activity.

Best of luck to you.

[AdamSmith]

DDO is becoming just another game, i.e. nothing special, nothing unique

What's so great about hirelings that don't work properly or having to sit around rest shrines for 30 seconds. DDO should speed things up. You want around for a cleric all day? How is DDO becoming just another game? Slow and boring processes should be excised out of the game.

If newbies find this game too easy then this game will die even faster.

No, newbies leave when content is too difficult or when they cannot find assistance in game. They throw their hands in the air and say I quit. Newbies that leave the game because it's too easy are much rarer (like 1%).

You want even more p2w options? Really?

No, I want Turbine to make some money so they can keep their servers running. Currently, their assortment of healing potions is Vendor Trash.

They do - the top tier potions do 130 plus 130-260 hitpoints over the next 10 seconds, factor in a reasonable level of healing amp and even the initial burst of healing is over 200. Longer cooldown on them than standard potions mind.

Too complicated for both newbies and vets. Potions should plainly say 250 HP of healing Instantly all the time (without factoring in healing amp at all). Don't give me a range of values, don't give me delayed healing, a small cooldown maybe for balance purposes.

Their DDO store potions should be like silver flame potions without the penalties and without the long cooldown. 10 second cooldown tops. Make them easy to use. Easy to understand. It will be a top seller (at least for newbies).

[fmalfeas]

The over-time portion of those potions is the best part! You get a solid shot of up-front healing, and it continues to patch you up as you finish the fight, reducing the odds significantly of being worn down again before you can drink another. I'll take that over a Silver Nerfing Pot any day.