Positive Racial Changes (Drow)

[Daleisme1]

I love Drow. I have always seen them as my second favorite race after Warforged when I started playing them years ago. But with the new changes, they are lacking something very important. Elves & Half Elves have a Racial Tree for Arcane Archer, it's always been the most beneficial part of playing those races. Why not Drow? They are Elves, too. I can think of several ways to improve Drow as a race.

1) Removed Venomed Blades: Venomed Blades is all good, but it has been buggy ever since it came out. If you want to do something right, just add the entire Assassin Tree. Go for all or for nothing. If you can't add the Assassin tree, how difficult would be be to code in Arcane Archer for Drow? I love Drow, I love using the enhancements for Arcane Archer, too.

These changes should be beneficial for the race. But, that is not the only change I want to cover.

2) Vulkoor, the Drow only Divine Path: Short Swords have always been great for Clerics of Vulkoor, I can think of no better weapon for a Vulkoor servant, but that is not what I am referring to. Vulkoor's Avatar is the least useful Clerical power on the list granted at 6th level. A Cr 10 Drow Scorpion is only beneficial until maybe 12-14th level, after that it basically is ignored. If you want to change it, make it level with the Cleric, possibly even a companion, (Like a Druid's Wolf, or Artificer's Hound) but change its size to Medium or Small instead of a Large (horse-sized) with a large bulk. They could use a companion to bring into battle.

This isn't the only Clerical Drow class change I wish to cover.

3) Lolth, the Drow only Divine Path: Ever since Update 25 Lolth has reigned over the Forgotten Realms. She is a powerful Goddess, and the Mother of the Drow. She needs to be included in the Drow Divine Path as well. The only major change I would make is followers of Lolth specialize in Daggers, not Short Swords. Daggers are Simple Weapons, and Clerics can use them automatically, so nothing new changes there for proficiency. However, for the 6th level path, its always nice to see a Battle Captive, or to most an Enslaved Servant. Drow are notorious for this, and it would be awesome to allow them to Dominate a target for a period of time, and have them fight for them. No better way to demoralize your enemies, right?

In closing, I believe these changes could bring new light (or Darkness ) to the Drow as a race. I don't believe the changes are entirely essential to the point where it would be impossible to work without them, but I do believe they are great changes! Tell me what you think!

[Sunnie]

I believe venomed blades got fixed, at the latest with the rogue pass. Overall I'd say the Drow racial tree is mostly fine. A general racial tree pass would be great, however. The cost/benefit for reaching some of the tier 4 enhancements is WAY out of whack, not just for Drow.

I agree that the avatar of Vulkoor could use a makeover. Having it scale to cleric/pally/FvS + epic level would work well.

As for allowing Lolth as a goddess to follow... just no. Apart from the whole "no evil characters and no following evil gods" policy, there's the whole deal with Elminster. "Yes, I'm a cleric of Lolth so I'll go help Elminster and thwart Lolth's plans." It makes zero sense. Furthermore, Lolth has nothing to do with Drow in Eberron, there are a few Drow NPCs around Stormreach trying to preach for the Spinner of Shadows, but that's it. Calling her "Mother of the Drow" in DDO is like claiming Al Gore invented the internet.

[Saekee]

Venomed blades is one of the nicer buffs there since it scales 200% with MP. It is just really costly to get. Ambidexterity is also too costly.

They should have something like halfling thrower in which short swords gain an expanded crit profile. It shouldn't stack with ninja capstone ofc.

[lyrecono]

adding deepwood would make this just another elf clone, as people mentioned, they have some nice features but like most races, that have to compete with far more powerfull class enh.

Loth? no way, she's evil, we can't be, didn't loth's drow look down on Eberron drow anyway for being too weak anyway?

A way to change into a vulkoorim? hmmmmm, that might actually be fun.

[Tom116]

I believe venomed blades got fixed, at the latest with the rogue pass. Overall I'd say the Drow racial tree is mostly fine. A general racial tree pass would be great, however. The cost/benefit for reaching some of the tier 4 enhancements is WAY out of whack, not just for Drow.

I agree that the avatar of Vulkoor could use a makeover. Having it scale to cleric/pally/FvS + epic level would work well.

As for allowing Lolth as a goddess to follow... just no. Apart from the whole "no evil characters and no following evil gods" policy, there's the whole deal with Elminster. "Yes, I'm a cleric of Lolth so I'll go help Elminster and thwart Lolth's plans." It makes zero sense. Furthermore, Lolth has nothing to do with Drow in Eberron, there are a few Drow NPCs around Stormreach trying to preach for the Spinner of Shadows, but that's it. Calling her "Mother of the Drow" in DDO is like claiming Al Gore invented the internet.

adding deepwood would make this just another elf clone, as people mentioned, they have some nice features but like most races, that have to compete with far more powerfull class enh.

Loth? no way, she's evil, we can't be, didn't loth's drow look down on Eberron drow anyway for being too weak anyway?

A way to change into a vulkoorim? hmmmmm, that might actually be fun.

Should point out that Vulkoor is also evil so....

And followers of the Lord of Blades (Also evil) who do the house C chain go against their religion too.

I think a new religious choice would be nice, as long as it's comparable to the others so there's a real choice.

[Sunnie]

Should point out that Vulkoor is also evil so....

And followers of the Lord of Blades (Also evil) who do the house C chain go against their religion too.

I think a new religious choice would be nice, as long as it's comparable to the others so there's a real choice.

I think Vulkoor is only kinda evil, though, and deceptively so. Iirc it's not even completely sure if Vulkoor is a real deity or if one of the dark 6 is masquerading, but I'm a bit rusty on that bit of lore. Lolth on the other hand is pants-on-head evil of the bat**** insane variety, absolutely no question about that. Heck, it seems there are even different "churches" worshipping Vulkoor, just compare the Claw of Vulkoor to Offering of Blood, there is no similar justification for Lolth.

Considering that you end up saving the Lord of Blades from being possessed by the Quori, I'd say you're fine even as a Bladeforged. Furthermore, I wouldn't say the LoB is any more evil than your average Tharashk arena spectator. He is ruthless, wants revenge on House Cannith, and wants to improve the lot of the Warforged. When talking about him it comes down to the good old "freedom fighter or terrorist".

More religious choices would be nice, but that would be better achieved by introducing each deity of the Sovereign Host instead of lumping them all together.

[Tom116]

I think Vulkoor is only kinda evil, though, and deceptively so. Iirc it's not even completely sure if Vulkoor is a real deity or if one of the dark 6 is masquerading, but I'm a bit rusty on that bit of lore. Lolth on the other hand is pants-on-head evil of the bat**** insane variety, absolutely no question about that. Heck, it seems there are even different "churches" worshipping Vulkoor, just compare the Claw of Vulkoor to Offering of Blood, there is no similar justification for Lolth.

Considering that you end up saving the Lord of Blades from being possessed by the Quori, I'd say you're fine even as a Bladeforged. Furthermore, I wouldn't say the LoB is any more evil than your average Tharashk arena spectator. He is ruthless, wants revenge on House Cannith, and wants to improve the lot of the Warforged. When talking about him it comes down to the good old "freedom fighter or terrorist".

More religious choices would be nice, but that would be better achieved by introducing each deity of the Sovereign Host instead of lumping them all together.

Lord of Blades:

http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lord_of_Blades

Listed as Lawful Evil

Couldn't find a decent link showing Vulkoor (the ddo wiki, among other sites, say Neautral Evil but no official WotC pages came up from my google-fu), but pages did say that there are multiple sects worshiping differently, but generally not considered a kind god.

I mean that's just in the yes of the "good guys" so you could totally have a campaign as a LoB follower doing good work for their god, but could you not be helping your goddess claim more territory?

I'm all for more options, the more customization there is, there better. As long as their all viable in a build or two anyways

[Sunnie]

I know the LoB is officially listed as LE, but are you seriously saying he's anywhere near the evilitude of Lolth?

[Tom116]

I know the LoB is officially listed as LE, but are you seriously saying he's anywhere near the evilitude of Lolth?

Na, but I'd be happy to worship lolth if she gave some decent powers. More options are good, and we've broken the alignment barrier already, if not to the same extent

[Sunnie]

Na, but I'd be happy to worship lolth if she gave some decent powers. More options are good, and we've broken the alignment barrier already, if not to the same extent

That's kinda like saying you'd vote for a nazi party if they gave you a cookie... or maybe a waffle, but no hot cherries or whipped cream.

And the problem with Lolth-worshippers going DIRECTLY against their goddess in the entire MotU storyline remains. As I pointed out, I think there's less of a problem with Bladeforged in Secrets of the Artificers since you end up helping him, and helping him retain what he values most none the less: His independence. But what's the justification for a cleric of Lolth helping Eminster thwart Lolth's plans?

[Tom116]

That's kinda like saying you'd vote for a nazi party if they gave you a cookie... or maybe a waffle, but no hot cherries or whipped cream.

And the problem with Lolth-worshippers going DIRECTLY against their goddess in the entire MotU storyline remains. As I pointed out, I think there's less of a problem with Bladeforged in Secrets of the Artificers since you end up helping him, and helping him retain what he values most none the less: His independence. But what's the justification for a cleric of Lolth helping Eminster thwart Lolth's plans?

Not at all, this is a game. No long-term issues to worry about like in real life.

You might end up helping the Lord of Blades in the end, but it's not like you knew from the start that he was in need of help. The quests were simply to stop him, preferably permanently.

It would be like saying you went in to rob a bank, end up shooting the other robbers, and claiming you were there to help the whole time. Seems to me like true followers of the Lord of Blades would have not wiped out an army of Bladeforged, aided enemies of the Lord of Blades, and confront the Lord of Blades himself. More likely they would have stopped House Cannith and any adventurers helping them, and followed the Lord of Blades like every other Bladeforged in the chain.

Another example, followers of Vulkoor go against other followers of Vulkoor in the Sands of Menechtarun chain.

It's not like Silver Flame Followers (lawful good) really get along with Vulkoor (neutral evil) either, in Red Fens. At least in that case it was defender people from being attacked that justified helping them. And this goes vice-versa: Would a follower of Vulkoor really help the Silver Flame with their problems? Because there are a LOT of quests where anyone helps the Silver Flame, be them followers of Vulkoor, The Lord of Blades, or a non-believer.

I personally think more build options is good, because more customization seems to really appeal to the target market of Dungeons & Dragons products. Even in DDO, more options are great as long as they're all viable with pros and cons. A prime example could be Warlock. 3 pacts, all have good points, but you have to choose.

So what if Lolth is evil? We already have 2 evil deities available to worship, and a lawful neutral one too. We also have assassins, which are supposed to require evil characters. This is a game

[Uska]

DDO drow do NOT acknowledge LLoth period!

[Sunnie]

Not at all, this is a game. No long-term issues to worry about like in real life.

You might end up helping the Lord of Blades in the end, but it's not like you knew from the start that he was in need of help. The quests were simply to stop him, preferably permanently.

It would be like saying you went in to rob a bank, end up shooting the other robbers, and claiming you were there to help the whole time. Seems to me like true followers of the Lord of Blades would have not wiped out an army of Bladeforged, aided enemies of the Lord of Blades, and confront the Lord of Blades himself. More likely they would have stopped House Cannith and any adventurers helping them, and followed the Lord of Blades like every other Bladeforged in the chain.

Not all Warforged follow the LoB, since Bladeforged are Warforged (that have been remade in the Forge where they were first created), a crisis of faith is not inconceivable. I can see a follower of the LoB who agrees with the general goals of the LoB refusing to aid in the murder of all "fleshlings" in Stormreach, or even decide to try and prevent it on moral grounds.

Another example, followers of Vulkoor go against other followers of Vulkoor in the Sands of Menechtarun chain.

Yes, I mentioned that. This is like Protestants and Catholics killing each other over differing interpretations of the holy scriptures. [sarcasm]What a ridiculous notion! Something like that could NEVER happen. [/sarcasm]

It's not like Silver Flame Followers (lawful good) really get along with Vulkoor (neutral evil) either, in Red Fens. At least in that case it was defender people from being attacked that justified helping them. And this goes vice-versa: Would a follower of Vulkoor really help the Silver Flame with their problems? Because there are a LOT of quests where anyone helps the Silver Flame, be them followers of Vulkoor, The Lord of Blades, or a non-believer.

The Silver Flame work together with the Blood of Vol and the Emerald Claw throughout the heroic parts of the Necroplis chain. Iirc, it was the latter two that approached the Silver Flame. Stopping the Black Abbot was that important, so yes, differing philosophies or faiths are not an insurmountable obstacle to working together.

I personally think more build options is good, because more customization seems to really appeal to the target market of Dungeons & Dragons products. Even in DDO, more options are great as long as they're all viable with pros and cons. A prime example could be Warlock. 3 pacts, all have good points, but you have to choose.

So start by dividing up the Sovereign Host and let us follow any deity we like from there. Bunching up a pantheon of 9 (+6 but those don't count for players) deities into one choice is silly.

So what if Lolth is evil? We already have 2 evil deities available to worship, and a lawful neutral one too. We also have assassins, which are supposed to require evil characters. This is a game

And as a game it should be internally consistent. So far we have 2 spots (Bladeforged in the House C quests and followers of Vulkoor in Offering of Blood) that are a little irksome and where you have to stretch a little to make it fit. But in the end those work out. Allowing Lolth as a deity to follow would be like ripping out the middle parts of two different random books, gluing them into each other, and expecting to get a coherent story.

And, of course, what Uska said. DDO Drow do not acknowledge Lolth. On account of Lolth being on an entirely different plane of existence and not being present in Eberron until someone decided to introduce the should've-staid-forgotten realms to DDO. Eons passed without Lolth, and suddenly she tears reality a new hole and... Drow in Eberron start worshipping her? And these Lolth-worshipping Drow go on to help Elminster and thwart Lolth's plans? Nope, makes no sense at all.

[Enderoc]

By the standards set everyone is Chaotic Neutral by default no matter what it says on paper

[Corrupt]

Helf Pally broken? What? How? I recently TRd out of a Helf Sorcereress with pally dilly and never noticed anything wrong.

It's just rather weak overall. +5 saves when a lot of builds just go for 2 levels of Pally for like +15 on saves and Divine Might and +AC for a fraction of the AP cost. Human enhancements are great (Bonus SA on ranged make helfs with rogue dilly and halflings practically superfluous) and something like having the spare feat for "Force of Personality" is better than having to spend a ton of AP on weaksauce like every other defensive dilly feat. Grabbing helf for Cleric dilly for easy UMD-Healing is also rather expensive considering the alternatives and self-healing. And if you're doing it for arcane archer, why aren't you picking elf for bow enhancements and grace? Ranger dilly BTFO. Or why would you pick the monk dilly (which only works when centered) only to have to spend AP for a measly cap of +5 AC from wisdom without taking actual monk levels for bonus feats, stances, and unlimited AC from wisdom?

Overall, Helf is just very underwhelming and there's practically nothing that couldn't be done better with some other race (especially human or elf) or some other build. I don't mind the concept, I just feel helf dillies were left behind as other racial trees were improved in power.

[Corrupt]

How about letting (FR) drow worship Drizzt as their god of "not being evil" instead? *ducks*

To be fair, Vulkoor is pretty much Eberrons Lolth. Just a lot less prominent due to the more subdued role religion takes in Eberron: You can't really have Vulkoor as an epic raid boss. Vulkoor is worshipped, but he isn't *there*, you can't go to the Plane of Vulkoor and say "hi" no matter how many epic levels you have. You just have the cult of vulkoor and the clerics seem to get their powers from *somewhere*, and magical things happen that allow for the interpretation of divine intervention - meanwhile Lolth is something like a saturday morning cartoon villain, hell bent on world domination / destruction and gets thwarted by plucky heroes regularly.

[AshurDS]

/signed for introducing Lolth as a Drow deity choice. My drow cleric's patron is Lolth. Would be nice for the mechanics to support this. More Forgotten Realms the better ...imo.

Ashur

[Bennum]

/signed for introducing Lolth as a Drow deity choice. My drow cleric's patron is Lolth. Would be nice for the mechanics to support this. More Forgotten Realms the better ...imo.

Ashur

I think I am in a similar boat to you. My toons are 90 percent drow, they are meant to represent the remnants of a rogue drow house and are all related in some way. While none of them would be interested in worshipping Lolth (they consider themselves liberated) one of them (my bard) and her mate by lore worship Eilistraee and would even consider splashing cleric or pally levels were it an option.

At the same time I understand that the game isn't designed to fully support drow pcs that are supposed to be FR native, and that it is only a player RP choice.

[SKW]

IIRC: The Sovereign Host followers amongst us had to kill our fellows for Gnomon, so honestly, only the Silver Flame really gets top billing here.