The real reason BB is bad for the game!

[eachna_gislin]

had zer0 issues today on Khyber filling EEBB REM - eRed Fens - Self Sufficient LFM.... filled with level 20-22's in minutes.

tomorrow same will be said about EE BB REM - VON1-6 - self sufficient LFM....

and the day after that 'EE BB REM - eStar Express - self sufficient', followed by 'EE BB REM eStar Chain 1-3 - self sufficient'

I don't know why I have very little trouble filling PUGS.....

Your self-sufficient BB-only runs are not useful for new players, who are incorrectly taught to be fanatical about a streak they don't benefit from, and are not yet self-sufficient.

[eachna_gislin]

Then why aren't all of these people running hard and normal grouping together if they want to? BB isn't stopping them from doing so!

Because they've been taught by the time they leave the Harbor that if they want to be in a group they'd better run Elite.

I semi-regularly post hard runs of certain quests/chains (I particularly enjoy doing the first lordsmarch chain multiple times) and I'll put up a LFM that says "Hard for second time bonus". Without fail, some selfish jerk will join and start whining that we all should want elite, and cheerleading that we can do it, it's not too difficult to run on elite, etc.

I will thank them for their feedback and insist on doing the run on hard. They will either drop, or keep whining until the other people in the group agree, and then I have to drop from the group I started.

In these cases, it's clear _they_ need the help through the quest but they don't want to give up their streak. They'll join my LFM because they want the quest chain, and they figure they can get what they want. This is the kind of garbage we have to put up with because of bravery bonus.

[eachna_gislin]

Cause I sure do see LoD, and Von3 run all the time. These get repeated several times in a row. And not for BB.

I see epic chains run too. Like the Druid's Deep or High Road chains... or the drow chains.


How did TS become boring and tedious?
Cause the simple answer of we did it 1000 times isn't really beleivable.

We've done LoD and especially VoN3 1000 times now too.
(Von3 is almost as old as TS)

VON 3 is one of the better XP quests in the game. VON3, Wiz King, and Spies are a pretty common trio for people who want a few quick high-xp epic quests for a single day.

The Lords of Dust chain is the only (?) free epic chain. There maybe be something in Eveningstar I'm forgetting. It's also pretty fast xp (unless Spinner gets messy).

I never see the Druid's Deep chains offered any more. Can't comment on that.

The High Road (I think?) has a short-ish saga option.

Tempest Spine is a great raid, and they did a good job updating the gear with augment slots, but the broken map makes it hard on people who don't know the run. I think that one is not so much "people don't like it" as they're burned out on herding the very very lost noobs. I've posted several Tempest Spines on level 14/15 characters and gotten at least 6 people, which is usually what I get when I post at level 10 or 12. It just takes a lot longer.

Even after grinding the heck out of it for several lives (the cloak of Invisibility is very elusive and I'm farming it on all my toons), I still only kinda-sorta know the map. Things get really fuzzy for me at the point of getting to the bridge and then back. I can find a lost noob before that, but at that point you're kind of on your own.

[mobrien316]

People don't run on hard and normal because it doesn't make sense. It has nothing to do with BB. This game is too easy to run quests on hard and normal for less xp. BB or no BB. The fact that hard and normal even exists is silly at this point. Why is it there?

Lots of people run quests on hard and normal. Especially on epic hard and epic normal.

[TrinityTurtle]

But now... doing TS twice per life is a chore?
Why?

Is this really because of BB?

I don't get it.

How did we go from doing many quests over and over again happily to what we have now.

Honestly, it was boring and tedious having to repeat quests back then too. It wasn't the bb that released me to the one and done, it was the boredom of having to do it. Now there are so many quests in most levels that for me the real entertainment isn't sitting around doing the same one over and over, even a fun one like tempest spine, but doing them all once and moving on until the next life's repeat. Truly slows down my burnout issues with the game getting stale.

[Ykt]

So now I have two characters who've hit Lvl 20 without running Dust - Well guess those characters aren't gonna be running Shroud this life then!

This.

All of you who play in the nice timezones don't realize how difficult it is to find other people to play with outside of the nice timezones.
In the last 2 years I've had to solo way too much for a Massively Multiplayer game.

[mobrien316]

Take a quest such as Jungle of Khyber. For just about everyone who is going to run it on heroic, they fall into one of the following categories:
1. Hasn’t run it yet on elite, so won’t join or post any LFM except elite
2. Has already run it on elite; willing to join/post LFM’s for hard or normal
3. Wants as much XP as possible, but can’t solo it or survive it without lots of help
4. Wants to run it on normal or hard to learn it or become more familiar with it, or because they know they can’t survive on elite
5. Wants to run it on elite for XP bonus, wants the run to go as quickly as possible so they can run more quests.

I’m sure there are a few more categories, but you get the idea.

Person #5 is almost certainly helped by the BB mechanic. They want to jump into the quest, run it quickly and without issues, and move onto the next quest. If they happen to group with like-minded and similarly skilled players, the BB mechanic definitely helps them, though it is very likely such players would be posting LFM’s on elite anyway, even if the BB did not exist.

The BB mechanic kind of helps person #3, who knows that they can’t solo the quest or even survive without massive assistance. Since the BB encourages people to run on elite, person #3 has a very good chance of latching onto a group and riding in someone’s backpack to a nice XP payday. When these people join Person #5’s group, person #5 gets annoyed.

Person #1 is not helped by the BB; if they see LFM’s for Jungle of Khyber on normal or hard, they are actively discouraged from joining them by the BB mechanic.

Person #2 is not really helped by the BB except in the sense that they got extra XP by running the quest first on elite. They are willing to run it on any difficulty, but won’t post normal or hard LFM’s until they run it on elite, so the BB is actually discouraging grouping here, too.

Person #4 is really not helped by the BB, because they want to learn a quest or run it a difficulty level where they won’t be a soulstone for 90% of the quest and where they can actually contribute and adventure and have fun. The BB mechanic actively discourages people from posting or joining groups on hard or normal.


The BB is great for XP. It is also bad for grouping.

[jalont]

Lots of people run quests on hard and normal. Especially on epic hard and epic normal.

I don't actually think they do. This entire thread is about all the unseen players that run on hard and normal. The truth is, I don't think they exist. If they existed, they'd be able to fill an LFM.

Here's a thought guys, maybe there's just not that many people that wish to run anything under elite.

[mobrien316]

I don't actually think they do. This entire thread is about all the unseen players that run on hard and normal. The truth is, I don't think they exist. If they existed, they'd be able to fill an LFM.

Here's a thought guys, maybe there's just not that many people that wish to run anything under elite.

I don't know what server you are on, but on Thelanis you can pretty much always see EN LFM's for Wizard King, Spies in the House, VoN3 and VoN4, and others.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Your self-sufficient BB-only runs are not useful for new players, who are incorrectly taught to be fanatical about a streak they don't benefit from, and are not yet self-sufficient.

then get out and post LFM's - LEAD Jim, not follow else you will never become Captain!

[mobrien316]

Just signed on to Thelanis to see if there were any EN or EH LFM's posted.

[UurlockYgmeov]

HOW ABOUT checking 'show lfm's not eligible for' - there will be more that you are eligible for than are shown - just have to ask the party leader.

AND

goes back to my point - POST LFM's and be part of the solution, not part of the ......

[Impaqt]

BB is great for veteran players. It maximizes Favor and XP simultaneously.

BB is Horrible for new and casual players. It forces them into situations they are not prepared for and ruins the immersion of the game.

No other system in DDO has driven such a huge wedge between players.

[Braegan]

BB is great for veteran players. It maximizes Favor and XP simultaneously.

BB is Horrible for new and casual players. It forces them into situations they are not prepared for and ruins the immersion of the game.

No other system in DDO has driven such a huge wedge between players.

Mostly agree.

I think EDs are a bigger wedge, but I digress.

[jalont]

Just signed on to Thelanis to see if there were any EN or EH LFM's posted.

Okay, then what is the problem we're trying to solve?

[mobrien316]

Okay, then what is the problem we're trying to solve?

Bravery bonus has far less impact at epic levels than at heroic levels.

I was simply pointing out to you that EN and EH LFM's are common, since you posted that no one ever ran them.

[Qhualor]

Bravery bonus has far less impact at epic levels than at heroic levels.

I was simply pointing out to you that EN and EH LFM's are common, since you posted that no one ever ran them.

In my experience, EH is posted abut as much as EE. I see maybe a quarter of that at best for EN. People have different leveling plans with a wide variety of play styles and it can depend on content. Some players I know doing ER past lives already have their elite BB and do a set of quests daily only on normal. Some don't feel confident enough to handle EE, even with a group, but prefer good xp and little chance of failure. Some won't do anything but elite regardless if they can handle it or not. There is no clear majority that prefer to play a specific way to level in epics like there is in heroics.

[Chai]

BB might have been great when the game servers were much closer to full than they are now. With dwindling population numbers, it only further serves to divide the already low population into small potential group level ranges. Its not set in stone by the company, but most of those LFM level ranges are set in stone by the community.

The real question is will changing the system cause more grouping. Evidence points to yes, as before BB was in place, people would run content when they felt like it, when it was fun for them to do so, and not only when the systems narrow level range parameters allowed max XP for completion. Couple that with the fact that the current xp ransack mechanic doesnt bottom you out on xp permanently for running the quest too often (as it did in the past), and we can conclude that doing away with BB (and replacing it with something that makes more sense in the current situation) will help LFMs and the PUG scene.

[PsychoBlonde]

It proves that I like BB - and for heroics (and first pass epics) - the best way to earn xp.

Now if you ER - who cares - just run what you run.

And BB is just plain awesome - no matter how many threads are started by the same people who dislike BB.

It's not that they dislike BB. They dislike anybody being free to play in a way they like because it makes it even slightly less convenient for them to find people to enable them to play the way they like--which is to lean on other people.

Newsflash--if your preferred playstyle requires other people to be involved, that is fine, but, guess what, that means waiting around until those other people are AVAILABLE. I don't recall it saying anywhere in the Terms of Service that "Turbine guarantees there will be players around willing to carry your dopey butt regardless of what choices you make and how you treat them".

If you want to play with other people, the very first thing you must do is APPEAL to them. Respecting their XP is a way to do that even if YOU, PERSONALLY don't care. Or respect their loot. Or respect their desire to get all the bonuses (or not) or get all the optionals (or not) or not die (or not) or stay together (or not). Just respect other people even when their desires don't necessarily match yours and you won't have so many problems finding people to group with--and if you do, you won't get so friggin mad about it and wind up ****ing off EVEN MORE PEOPLE by *****ing that THEIR WAYS ARE BAD AND THE ONLY PROPER WAY IS YOUR WAY.

[EllisDee37]

Due to epic reincarnation not resetting streaks, bravery is almost wholly irrelevant in epics. In a conversation about whether or not bravery is good for the game, the only relevant aspect is heroics. And in heroics, bravery helps grouping and is good for the game.

BB itself isn't what's getting some players together in a group. It's the fact that elite is the most rewarding from loot to xp.

Bravery all by itself is the reason you see pugs running what would otherwise be considered poor-xp quests. They may not form to run those quests -- typically the LFMs will list popular quests in the LFM to get people in the door -- but the majority of all pugs I start or join stay together to run the less popular stuff at level. And the reason people are willing to do that is because bravery makes it worthwhile.

As an example, when I log in after having taken level 8 in the previous session, I'll put up an LFM for Redwillow's, then buff and head to the quest and switch the LFM to IP. For most lives, I have several people join (sometimes a full group) and then we run the remainder of the F2P level 6s. This is greatly helped by the bravery bonus.

Gone are the days of window-farming Shadow Crypt. Now it's "that was fun; wanna blast through Red Fens?"

And I don't remember the last early Gianthold pug I joined/created (the 13s @ 15) that didn't swing by Mired In Kobolds after finishing the walkups. By contrast, in the year or so I played before bravery existed, I never was able to set foot in mired in kobolds because nobody wanted to run it due to the poor xp. (Though i'll concede it's also possible they just didn't want to drag my gimpness through it. heh.)

The BB restricts options for running quests. People who haven't yet run a quest are less likely to run it on hard or normal because they want the extra XP from running it on elite. Therefore, any H or N LFM posted is going to have less chance of people joining, because those people will, for all intents and purposes, be penalized for not doing the quest first on elite. Anything that penalizes people for not joining a group should be reconsidered.

Bravery doesn't restrict anything. FAVOR restricts the options. Why run hard when you get all the favor from elite?

In heroics I still see players running E/H/N for first time bonus.

I do a fair amount of pugging (and soloing) in heroics and I haven't ever seen this from any pug in years.