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  1. #1
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Default The real reason BB is bad for the game!

    OK we all know the arguments for and against Bravery Bonus!
    We all know that XP is easy to get even without it!
    We all know that that doesn't mean a thing because XP is God to many!

    Now before BB an LFM that read:
    Tempest Spine Elite Lvl 11-14
    would fill in no time flat!

    Same goes for an LFM that read:
    Proof is in the Poison Elite Lvl 6-9

    or for one that read:
    Coal Chamber Elite Lvl 17-20

    Today NONE of those LFMs will fill unless you get really lucky!

    They won't fill because the majority of Players who actually wanted to run those quests will have already done so at Lvls: 12, 6 and 18 respectively
    All levels within the range but without BB those players at those levels who haven't run those quests yet will take one look and go do something else - Or worse...Stick up their own E-BB LFM making the first LFM's chances of filling even more miniscule!


    Now you might be saying:
    "But DDO is so easy that you should be able to solo those quests at Lvl 14, 9 and 20 respectively"
    Well to that I say:
    "Just because you can doesn't mean everyone can!"

    Back when I came to DDO in mid 2010 I was quite happy to run quests up to 6 levels over and take what XP was available - I soloed many yes but if I put up a group there was a good chance that at least one other person would join me and an OK chance at getting a full group.
    Favour Farming massively over-level was highly prevalent - Yes you still see this type of LFM but once per day if you're lucky while back then you'd see a couple every hour!

    Today Newbies are rushed into running Elite at level* long before they're ready!
    Today we have myriad complaints about Elite being too easy BUT too few of the people making those complaints are willing to compromise in any way and provide the newbie or casual player with a route to the top.
    Instead they actually would prefer a Glass Ceiling to be created!


    *Oh yes: At Level
    Even this has changed it's meaning since BB!
    Pre BB At Level meant at Elite +1 so Lvl 13 for Tempest Spine, 7 for Proof and 19 for Coal!
    Post BB At Level means BB Level!



    The problem isn't just that People who can't cope with Elites are running Elites BUT that the goalposts have been moved so that people who were perfectly OK running Elites 3 or 4 levels over are now running them at BB level!
    It's blatantly obvious how much of a difficulty ramp up that was for many and yes we did get better because of it {WE HAD TO!}.

    Now the Devs have basically moved the Goalposts yet again with Champions - And in a year or so many of the people who complained initially about Champions and are still playing will wonder why they ever complained.
    Let me remind those who can't recall why they ever complained about BB back when it came out - It's because of the moving of the goalposts and the massive difficulty ramp up that forced you to become better!


    Now some of you might say:
    "But that's a good thing...We should all strive to become better"
    to which I say:
    "Do you really think any of us WEREN'T striving to become better pre BB or pre Champions?"

    Of course we were!
    Only now the goalposts have moved and we may have become better but so have you and the gap between us and you is still there!

    The problem is that now we're running the same content as you at the same time as you!



    Difficulty levels themselves are only part of the equation of working out what a player is capable of:
    A Player who can solo Elite Tempest Spine at Lvl 7 is demonstrably better than a Player who can solo that same raid at Lvl 12!
    Now we still can CHOOSE to run Elite heroic quests at a level of our choosing {it's a little more difficult with Epics} but that choice is now a bad one if we're choosing to run over-level BECAUSE BB has made it so!


    Now yes: We can still run Normal or Hard at level and favour farm Elites overlevel you're saying to yourselves.
    But: That only works for Heroics!
    There's EIGHT Levels where Elite is simply out of reach to many without past lives, Maxed EDs, Fate Slots etc.!
    High level Heroics pre MotU couldn't be favour farmed over-level but the sheer amount of content that matches that description now is off the scale!

    Why the worry about favour farming you ask yourselves.
    Well how else are we supposed to catch up if we can't favour farm our way to even a single +5 tome {heck +7s are available now!}?


    So more and more I'm seeing E-BB becoming the norm in Epics too as more players become able to cope with Elites at Level {BB in Epics having a wider level range certainly helps!}.

    Well...Again we'll get better {slowly} and in a year or so the goalposts will get moved again and we'll hear the same complaints again!
    Remember that it's the moving of the goalposts that's the issue NOT how the goalposts were moved!


    You want an Uber Elite difficulty for those who find EEs too easy?
    Well you can have that difficulty if you compromise and accept that everyone else needs to be able to run at their level!
    So:
    That difficulty can't have extra Favour {a new type of favour that gives special non-power related rewards may be in order}
    That difficulty shouldn't give more XP {there's more than enough XP available already!}
    That difficulty can't give better loot - Otherwise you get the loot then complain it's too easy again!
    That difficulty must be for the "Challenge" and "Bragging Rights" alone!

  2. #2
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    had zer0 issues today on Khyber filling EEBB REM - eRed Fens - Self Sufficient LFM.... filled with level 20-22's in minutes.

    tomorrow same will be said about EE BB REM - VON1-6 - self sufficient LFM....

    and the day after that 'EE BB REM - eStar Express - self sufficient', followed by 'EE BB REM eStar Chain 1-3 - self sufficient'

    I don't know why I have very little trouble filling PUGS.....

  3. #3
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    had zer0 issues today on Khyber filling EEBB REM - eRed Fens - Self Sufficient LFM.... filled with level 20-22's in minutes.

    tomorrow same will be said about EE BB REM - VON1-6 - self sufficient LFM....

    and the day after that 'EE BB REM - eStar Express - self sufficient', followed by 'EE BB REM eStar Chain 1-3 - self sufficient'

    I don't know why I have very little trouble filling PUGS.....
    And what has any of this got to do with what I said?

    In fact it rather proves my point that E-BB is becoming the norm even for Epics as more people catch up with Turbine's goalpost moving!

  4. #4
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    I don't care about bb as a norm. BB is one of the best things they did for DDO.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  5. #5
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    And what has any of this got to do with what I said?

    In fact it rather proves my point that E-BB is becoming the norm even for Epics as more people catch up with Turbine's goalpost moving!
    It proves that I like BB - and for heroics (and first pass epics) - the best way to earn xp.

    Now if you ER - who cares - just run what you run.

    And BB is just plain awesome - no matter how many threads are started by the same people who dislike BB.

  6. #6
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Exit, pursued by a bear. ~ William Shakespeare (stage direction from The Winter's Tale)

    .60284.

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  8. #8
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Exit, pursued by a bear. ~ William Shakespeare (stage direction from The Winter's Tale)

    .60284.

  9. #9
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    I don't care about bb as a norm. BB is one of the best things they did for DDO.
    I'm going to assume the above is sarcasm as otherwise it's a blatant contradiction!

    If you personally don't care about BB then how can you state it's one of the best things they did for DDO?

    Especially when I and others have shown over and over again that the opposite is in fact true!

    BB hasn't made the game any harder for those who could run Elites at level before it But it HAS made things far far harder for those who couldn't!
    Before BB we could run Elites when we were ready for them and actually get GROUPS!
    Post BB we not only HAVE to run them AT BB LEVEL but we must also be capable of SOLOING them AT LEVEL too as no-one will join unless the quest is IP!

    It's blatantly obvious that this cannot possibly be good for the game!

    Why do I run E-BBs? Because I actually want to be able to run with others!
    If I don't run E-BBs in Heroics I don't get to run with others until Lvl 20!
    Epics are now going the same way where I'm seeing more and more E-BB LFMs up for them - Now I know perfectly well that my characters aren't geared for EE and as I know this I rarely join EEs {OK so I join EE VoN5/6 runs as that seems to be the only difficulty that raid ever gets run at on Cannith!}.

    It's a combination of effects obviously - BB is NOT the SOLE cause of any of this!
    But BB was a bad idea, Is a bad idea still and needs to go!

    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    It proves that I like BB - and for heroics (and first pass epics) - the best way to earn xp.

    Now if you ER - who cares - just run what you run.

    And BB is just plain awesome - no matter how many threads are started by the same people who dislike BB.
    So basically XP is all that counts?

    BB is good because it gives you more XP?

    Is that it?

    Well that's nice for you, Heck it's nice for everyone to be able to get XP faster BUT is it good for the game that everyone's getting XP faster?
    Of course it's NOT!
    People rushed through the game when XP was much much harder to get - We all saw them come, get bored, go!
    Now XP is so easy to get it's ridiculous and more and more people are leaving because they're bored!
    Stop rushing to the end - You'll only get bored and leave!

  10. #10
    Community Member laurawilder's Avatar
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    Default While I agree with your sentiments

    Overall BB has not been the sole issue that hurt pugs over the years. Guilds have been far worse.

    BB has been great for xp and beneficial but has been used by some to make new players attracted to the game to be rejected from groups or been afraid to run with others to learn quests and/or forced to run some before they are ready to run at elite levels.

    But running and learning quests from PUGS and such were affected more from guilds. Who needs groups like in the old days for waterworks, proof or even Gwylan's which back in the day was a nice test for rogues.

    But changes made in game like lessening the weight in Gwylan's to make easier and ships buffs make needing a caster or divine expendable in many cases. Years ago I recall the fun of watching people die in WW part 3 making the dash to avoid the acid blasts and getting the right character to make the run easier or not a fail. These days anyone can buff up and walk through maybe sitting in the acid and eat a sandwich and not be affected.

    BB has given an excuse to some that has affected the game but the COC and the seclusion and subtle changes from the mindset of conformity have been worse than any XP carrot.


    The best I can say it post PUGS run with like minded and ry and help those newer to the game so that they will not feel they are wrong, give up and quite the game sooner than they should have.

    When I started back in 2008 I recall a comment from a senior player that rang true. I was feeling down as to some nuances of the game still had eluded me after like 8 months of playing. He said you have not even been playing a year yet you are a newbie and should not be expected to know everything. He was correct DDO was a thinking game back at that time. It still can be if you remove the background noise from some of the player base.

    If you force yourself to restart new characters first life and not share/grandfather equipment from others it can still be a fun challenge. Some have lost that perspective and feel the game should be as easy for new players as it is for their 6th life uber geared character or at least their latest incarnation after several previous attempts.

    Sorry about the ramble but BB itself is not the issue but in can be used as a badge to select groups to feather their ego and perceived greatness. But to others it can be what it was intended just a nice bonus to shoot for at times and not a lifestyle. After all it only stacks 5 times so if you break it big deal, 4 quests later you can have the same perks.

  11. #11
    Founder & Hero
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    Dont touch my BB I like it when I get it but I dont cry when I dont just leave it alone. I like it for when I cant find a group and just go out to do a few quests but if there is a LFM I will join it and not worry about if it provides it or not.


    Beware the Sleepeater

  12. #12
    Community Member Maxxcore's Avatar
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    Default Well said.

    I like BB. I always use BB. I've got a large BB. But, I wouldn't mind taking BB out, but, it would make the p2p part of the game shine more because, without the bonus xp, we need more packs. Honestly, my only concern on the topic, is that I'll have to favor grind again. Also, favor farming from over-level can't mess up BB.
    Sheikra - Completionist Wizard

  13. #13
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    The worst things about BB is if you haven't run an advertised quest on elite yet than some people won't join a group until they can run it on elite. BB is too good to lose. In the past before BB you would just take a 10% hit or more depending on highest level player in the group. Because BB is rewarded so well with xp, better drop rates on named loot, some cases elite only loot and saga this can impact grouping at times positively, but also negatively. Some players just don't fit well on elite and it is what new players see on the lfm or in their new guild are running.

    BB does need improvements and I know PC members have said they have brought up on their end to the devs. It's not a perfect system so I'm fine with making changes to it if it helps grouping and gets players to run difficulties they are more comfortable running. I'm just waiting for the devs.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  14. #14
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    Even without Bravery Bonus, no one would run things over level because you would still get an xp penalty.

  15. #15
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm going to assume the above is sarcasm as otherwise it's a blatant contradiction
    If you just understood the message.... I don't care about bb being the norm. I did not say I don't care about bb. I can run on elite with or without a group, as I see fit. I get max. favor and max. exp. That is what I want. If the 'norm' is elite bb then, so be it. More so, because I hate favor grind and I am very happy max. favor being linked to max. exp.

    But you want it to deliberately turn into something bad, so people get forced to maybe group with you, because you want it. You state BB is bad. I don't think that way. I am as rude and say: deal with it. Your constant evangelistic attitude towards bb is annoying.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  16. #16
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    So put up an LFM for Tempest Spine for 8-12.


    ... and shortman it if your character is 14. I am sure there are other 14s who would join.
    As long as you can get the Int rune and unlock some doors, I don't think you need a full group.



    It is not BB that is the problem.... it is the players and their obsession with XP/min.

    No reason at all that TS with lvl 14s shouldn't fill.... except that no one wants to run any quest that does not maximize their XP/min.

    I can sorta...almost understand breaking a streak. But is there really that many people 11. and 12s out there who have not done TS once already... and will not join you for a second run?

    Is there really that many 13s and 14s who refuse to run TS... not because it will break a streak... but simply because it does not maximize their XP/Min, because they are over level?

    ...weird. People don't make sense to me.



    I run things because they are fun to run.
    I do look at the level range, and I do prefer to run things on elite.
    But I don't give a second thought to xp/min.... stupid IMO.
    Games are supposed to be fun to play.

    ..and this one is fun... if you don't let others influence how you play.
    I gave up a life of farming to become an Adventurer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  17. #17
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    So put up an LFM for Tempest Spine for 8-12.


    ... and shortman it if your character is 14. I am sure there are other 14s who would join.
    As long as you can get the Int rune and unlock some doors, I don't think you need a full group.



    It is not BB that is the problem.... it is the players and their obsession with XP/min.

    No reason at all that TS with lvl 14s shouldn't fill.... except that no one wants to run any quest that does not maximize their XP/min.

    I can sorta...almost understand breaking a streak. But is there really that many people 11. and 12s out there who have not done TS once already... and will not join you for a second run?

    Is there really that many 13s and 14s who refuse to run TS... not because it will break a streak... but simply because it does not maximize their XP/Min, because they are over level?

    ...weird. People don't make sense to me.

    1) No...I'm not gonna start a RAID Solo and hope people join - I won't start Tempest Spine with less than 6 at level {Heck I waited till we had 4 last night running it on an Epic character with an Epic Guildie who'd never run it before!}.
    Was a great run and it actually did fill incl. at least one other first timer.

    2) Even Pre BB I hated running any quest more than once - I'm a once and done player - So if I've already run that quest on Elite there's literally no way I'm running it again that life {Heroics only - I make an exception for E-VoN, Wiz King etc.}.
    So Proof is in the Poison as I can easily solo it at BB level and Tempest Spine which there is usually a group up for while I'm at Lvl 12 will get done at BB level without fail.
    Coal Chamber however is another story!
    Or maybe not Coal as that is rather easy to find a BB group for but twice recently I've had Vale Groups that have gone well up till that point disintegrate when I said Dust next? So now I have two characters who've hit Lvl 20 without running Dust - Well guess those characters aren't gonna be running Shroud this life then!

    3) This isn't particularly about me!
    I solo a lot {with hires that is}, I can run E-BBs thru Heroics now, Heck I can start most Solo {with hire} with the reasonable expectation that if no-one joins me I will complete anyway. {Epics I have a lot more trouble with but am quite happy to run EN VoN3/4, Wiz King, Spies, Oob and Chains not daily but certainly multiple times per week on different characters}.
    What worries me is the knowledge of what I had to go thru to get to this point and how many newer and more casual players than I DDO will lose with the constant moving of the goalposts!
    I at least had caught up a bit when BB came along and was able to {slowly} make the transition.
    With Champions it's been a faster transition as I'm much better now than I was when BB came along but still a transition.
    However for newer players there is NO transition - Just a Cliff face!

  18. #18
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Even without Bravery Bonus, no one would run things over level because you would still get an xp penalty.
    Yeah a massive 10%!

    Come on now!

    Many people were quite happy to run Elites 1,2 even 3 levels above Bravery level pre BB {Maybe fewer would go back to that now having got used to running at BB level but I think enough would that the game would be a lot better off for it!

  19. #19
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Yeah a massive 10%!

    Come on now!

    Many people were quite happy to run Elites 1,2 even 3 levels above Bravery level pre BB {Maybe fewer would go back to that now having got used to running at BB level but I think enough would that the game would be a lot better off for it!
    Actually there is Zero XP penalty for running 1 level over so 19 on a 16 Quest on Elite

    But, that's been mostly forgotten thanks to BB

  20. #20
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    BB is great because it gives a significant XP bonus.

    BB is also terrible because it actively discourages grouping in certain common situations.


    My main just finished up heroics yesterday. At level 18, if I saw an LFM posted for, say, Lords of Dust on Hard, I would not join if I hadn't run it yet on elite. Once I run a quest on elite, sometimes I post it again on hard or normal. Inevitably, I get tells from people asking "Why not elite?" and I get people who join, ask me "Can we do elite?", and then drop when I say I already ran it on elite.

    As nice as the XP bonus is, anything that actively discourages grouping should be given a hard look to see if it can be adjusted or removed.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade (Epic Triple Completionist), Archernicus Thornwood, Crestellin Moonwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jarladdin Nalfesne, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield (Heroic Triple Completionist, Epic Triple Completionist.)

    Leader of Guinness Knights (Level 165), which is (since June 2021) a two-man, father-son guild.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

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