Warlock Enhancements: Tainted Scholar

[Vargouille]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

[HastyPudding]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

...pierce damage? So...it won't scale with spellpower? That seems rather odd.

[Vargouille]

...pierce damage? So...it won't scale with spellpower? That seems rather odd.

Like Blade Barrier, it will still scale with Spell Power. The type of damage determines which type of spellpower affects it, not whether or not it does.

[Zzevel]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

Unholy Blight plays better with poison dmg... I like the change

[Xaxx]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

Ok so stanch is going into teir 1 or 2 now with this change since you made it an emergency skill and not an actual useful ability? What will be the new core to replace it? (anyone who wants to argue that...tell me how often you see positive energy infusion used... even if the %'s are different you want to take a spell thats only used in a handful of situations on artis and make it a core ability.... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...)

Unholy change meh..
Pen change... hope i never find a horror champ with pierce block...

As for the deparivity cost... congrats you have pretty much every sla like ability in the tree tied to a slow build mutual lock out timer.... *flips the sarcasm switch to 14* WHAT A BRILLIANT IDEA

[onny]

Thoughts on name for Unholy Blast.....

Tainted blast (kinda obvious)
Blighted Blast (from tomb of the blighted and common poison name)
Withering Blast (from the plant kill spell)

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

[Jetrule]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

I would Haggle for 50% and dings 2%. I didnt think it was bad as it was.. It lasted only one minute.

Piercing isn't very penetrating. It will be subject to all sorts of alignment and material dr if it is treated as physical piercing right? If so not so good there. Lucky for us force is rarely resisted.

These proposed changes take these two enhancements out of the attractive cattegory

Unholy blast change becomes slightly more attractive however. Suggested name change- Toxic onslaught or Virulent barrage.

[Vargouille]

I would Haggle for 50% and dings 2%. I didnt think it was bad as it was.. It lasted only one minute.

Reminder to everyone: It's important to speak up when you like something, not just when you don't like it.
(This kind of PSA never works, but I can keep trying! =)

Piercing isn't very penetrating. It will be subject to all sorts of alignment and material dr if it is treated as physical piercing right?

It's not physical Piercing damage, it's magical Piercing damage. Like Blade Barrier is magical Slashing damage.

[Drakos]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

I like the change to the Unholy Blast but cannot support the changes to Stanch or Penetrating. In the case of Stanch, it is a matter of survivability at higher levels. the Temp HP only lasted 1 minute. As mentioned above, at least go with 50% and -2%. I also think the -2% stacks should wear off over time and not require a rest. One of the best things about Warlocks it the no need to rest to recover resources. For Penetrating Blast, I believe that the default type should be untyped, as in PnP, now you have removed any ability for us to properly emulate the EB as it should be.

[Sebastrd]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

I think it's unwise to start fiddling with numbers like this before we even have a chance to see it in action. Let's see how it plays first, and then adjust it downward if it's too good in actual play. Forumites have a history of over- or underestimating abilities on paper.

[Arkadios]

I think it's unwise to start fiddling with numbers like this before we even have a chance to see it in action. Let's see how it plays first, and then adjust it downward if it's too good in actual play. Forumites have a history of over- or underestimating abilities on paper.

Have to agree here, 100% with -1% did seem slightly too powerful, however I'd like to see something like 100% for -3% or 50 for -2%. 33% for -3% had just made a core that everyone wanted to one where they will only get if they want the higher ones. (imo).

However it does need real testing on Llama-land before any of these numbers can be pinned down (like spellpower for E.B).

[Ziindarax]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

• Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
• Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
• Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

Okay, why was Unholy Blast changed from Negative energy, something that affects most mobs, and only heals undead, to something that is completely worthless against constructs, demons, and undead (the latter two being the most prevalent in your content)?

Was it because the undead form people could heal from Unholy Blast in your private testing (in which case, that would have actually been pretty awesome, as undead form has some pretty weak healing amp compared to war(/blade)forged and fleshies)? In any event, I strongly agree with Sebastrd on fiddling around with numbers before we've even had a chance to play test any of this on Lamannia. The changes should ONLY be made once ACTUAL Playing reveals that changes need to be made. Otherwise, we risk having a class that comes out of the gate too weak to be worth spending Turbine points on. :?


Speaking of Lama, when are we finally going to be allowed to take a crack at Warlocks? We've less than a week of May left, and with Warlock coming out in June, it seems like we might only have a week or two of actual play testing, and by then, it could be too late - Let's not have a class that comes out weak, and then needs an update/pass alongside the other casters.

[gwonbush]

Thoughts on changing unholy blast to poison damage: it is still not really useful against anything that can resist force damage. That being said, it does have more synergy with other classes than negative energy does. Sting of the Ninja at full stacks will double the damage, so that is pretty nice.

Also, another vote for Staunch being 50% max hp at the cost of -2%.

[Vargouille]

Okay, why was Unholy Blast changed from Negative energy, something that affects most mobs, and only heals undead, to something that is completely worthless against constructs, demons, and undead (the latter two being the most prevalent in your content)?

Negative Energy was a terrible choice. Half the questions about it involved asking if it healed friendly undead. That was not intended and almost certainly wouldn't have worked (without remaking everything that had been started and changing the designs around it), so it would have been incredibly confusing with little benefit.

Was it because the undead form people could heal from Unholy Blast in your private testing (in which case, that would have actually been pretty awesome, as undead form has some pretty weak healing amp compared to war(/blade)forged and fleshies)?

Precisely the opposite, which is why it needed to change. No actual testing needed to be involved once it was pointed out. That would also be a wildly different ability than what was intended, and this is exactly the right time to fix errors like that.

In any event, I strongly agree with Sebastrd on fiddling around with numbers before we've even had a chance to play test any of this on Lamannia. The changes should ONLY be made once ACTUAL Playing reveals that changes need to be made.

No.

At best, this is an argument for us delaying sharing designs with the public. We change the numbers all the time. Enhancement abilities and other Warlock numbers have changed dozens of times before we posted them live to you guys, and usually before it even makes it to the Council, because we find all kinds of wrong things on our own. 5 becomes 10 or Will becomes Reflex or Fortification becomes PRR; often the abilities are very similar looking overall but the details need to honed in. That iteration doesn't stop just because you guys have seen them. The process continues, only hopefully it's faster because there are many players looking at things. We want the best shot at every opportunity. The only reason iteration dramatically slows eventually is because a feature is actually on live and players have made characters with those features, and we actually don't like to mess with existing characters.

We are human, and make mistakes, and sometimes they are obvious mistakes. Negative Energy was a terrible, awful idea (of mine), and was one of the abilities that came in very late to the design, replacing another (worse) enhancement. In some ideal, time-filled world we'd have more time to vet these before showing them to you. Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.

Speaking of Lama, when are we finally going to be allowed to take a crack at Warlocks?

After we've built it.

[Drakos]

Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.

And I hope you continue along these lines. I like that we have a bit of time to see it and offer opinions before it hits public beta test. It helps the Devs to have more eyes on the problem to see things that slip through; like the negative energy thing. It helps the players by allowing them to express their opinions on what looks fun and what does not, to improve the final product. Pleas ignore comments to the contrary.

[btolson]

• Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)

What does poison damage scale with? Potency items only? Aren't you guaranteed to be around -50 spellpower from gear at cap using poison compared to force? And -10% crit chance?

[HastyPudding]

Negative Energy was a terrible choice. Half the questions about it involved asking if it healed friendly undead. That was not intended and almost certainly wouldn't have worked (without remaking everything that had been started and changing the designs around it), so it would have been incredibly confusing with little benefit.



Precisely the opposite, which is why it needed to change. No actual testing needed to be involved once it was pointed out. That would also be a wildly different ability than what was intended, and this is exactly the right time to fix errors like that.


No.

At best, this is an argument for us delaying sharing designs with the public. We change the numbers all the time. Enhancement abilities and other Warlock numbers have changed dozens of times before we posted them live to you guys, and usually before it even makes it to the Council, because we find all kinds of wrong things on our own. 5 becomes 10 or Will becomes Reflex or Fortification becomes PRR; often the abilities are very similar looking overall but the details need to honed in. That iteration doesn't stop just because you guys have seen them. The process continues, only hopefully it's faster because there are many players looking at things. We want the best shot at every opportunity. The only reason iteration dramatically slows eventually is because a feature is actually on live and players have made characters with those features, and we actually don't like to mess with existing characters.

We are human, and make mistakes, and sometimes they are obvious mistakes. Negative Energy was a terrible, awful idea (of mine), and was one of the abilities that came in very late to the design, replacing another (worse) enhancement. In some ideal, time-filled world we'd have more time to vet these before showing them to you. Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.


After we've built it.

Heh, I get the impression from this post of Vargouille shaking a wooden cooking spoon saying "It'll be done when it's done, stop asking."

[Failedlegend]

Reminder to everyone: It's important to speak up when you like something, not just when you don't like it.
(This kind of PSA never works, but I can keep trying! =)

Well I also think that 33% for 3% kind of kills the ability but 100% was a bit OP, 50% for 2% seems fair.

It's not physical Piercing damage, it's magical Piercing damage. Like Blade Barrier is magical Slashing damage.

So is magical piercing damage still subject to piercing DR? Also what boosts magical physical damage? Actually what spellpower boosts poison damage?

Honestly Warlocks have to deal with ALOT of damage types, which is on one hand FANTASTIC as it makes them incredibly versatile but at the same time it means their limited to Universal Spellpower (especially since thats what their caster tree grants) which not only has far less sources item wise (and is always behind the same at level of specific elements), it also doesn't have a skill backing it up.

Is there any possibility of granting USP based on your UMD score (as spellcraft grants elemental damage) possibly in Tainted Scholar if not base Warlock.

Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.

Luckily MOST of us understand this please don't stop

After we've built it.

Seriously guys stop asking, it's not accomplishing anything but annoying the devs.

[Ziindarax]

I stand corrected! Sorry if I seemed a bit combative there. Now that you've clarified, I think I have to agree, and would have been disappointed once I found out the hard way.

Thanks for clearing that up Varg.

So about the poison damage, is this like a supernatural poison (that would, theoretically, affect everything)?

Negative Energy was a terrible choice. Half the questions about it involved asking if it healed friendly undead. That was not intended and almost certainly wouldn't have worked (without remaking everything that had been started and changing the designs around it), so it would have been incredibly confusing with little benefit.



Precisely the opposite, which is why it needed to change. No actual testing needed to be involved once it was pointed out. That would also be a wildly different ability than what was intended, and this is exactly the right time to fix errors like that.


No.

At best, this is an argument for us delaying sharing designs with the public. We change the numbers all the time. Enhancement abilities and other Warlock numbers have changed dozens of times before we posted them live to you guys, and usually before it even makes it to the Council, because we find all kinds of wrong things on our own. 5 becomes 10 or Will becomes Reflex or Fortification becomes PRR; often the abilities are very similar looking overall but the details need to honed in. That iteration doesn't stop just because you guys have seen them. The process continues, only hopefully it's faster because there are many players looking at things. We want the best shot at every opportunity. The only reason iteration dramatically slows eventually is because a feature is actually on live and players have made characters with those features, and we actually don't like to mess with existing characters.

We are human, and make mistakes, and sometimes they are obvious mistakes. Negative Energy was a terrible, awful idea (of mine), and was one of the abilities that came in very late to the design, replacing another (worse) enhancement. In some ideal, time-filled world we'd have more time to vet these before showing them to you. Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.


After we've built it.

[alancarp]

Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille:
"How much more should a 28 have over 20?"
...

It's a good question. I dont have a nice clean answer for you, but I'm trying to demonstrate what I think is an inevitable wall you'll run into.

These are pretty soft numbers, but having done many many ETRs on multiple platforms, my gut tells me that a well-built level 28 melee with destinies probably does 3-4 times (closer to 4) the damage of the same lvl 20 melee without destinies. For a sorc, the number is probably more like twice as much damage, mostly due to the ED abilities they gain like Energy Burst, Ruin, and Hellball: their spell damage doesn't go up tremendously, and it certainly doesnt double. Warlocks wont have the sp pool to fuel these ED abilities like Hellball/Ruin (I think), and I don't get the impression that the devs want their epic viability to be exclusively contingent on ED abilities like eburst anyway.
...

Does that make sense? It's not a new problem, it's one that casters have dealt with for a long time ...

I apologize for this being more-or-less off-topic, but when I read this, I was tempted to scream 'Yes! That's also the problem with things like Cleric Turn Undead!' At Levels 18-20, it's still effective, though once you advance to Level 28, its capabilities advance only minimally while all the undead beasties about you have advanced their turn dice significantly more. Yes, it's a different thing, but Exalted Angel utterly ignores Turn Undead, so epic clerics pretty much have all they will get from levels 20+; ergo they effectively lose the ability via attrition. Without a direct solution here for Warlocks (whether via a modified ED or something), that's kinda what I think some may be fearing.