Warlocks!

[Uska]

It doesn't really look like the fans are really getting what they wanted from the class which is sad since if they are going to a class they should try to do it right instead of just doing it quickly to make a sale.

Luckily they put an outline out early for input and possible changes now if they just listen

[SisAmethyst]

During my light reading up on Warlocks, curses was listed as one of the things they are known for. Surprised not seeing this brought into DDO too. I will say though that curses would have to be potent to be worth it.

Well, how often you have seen people actually use Contagion (various disease), Bestow Curse, Ghul Touch, Doom, Scare? Those are actually on the proposed list but if you can instead choose Dimension Door, Displacement, Haste and Stoneskin I guess nobody ever would even consider those spells. I would remove DD & Haste and leave that for Bards, Wizards and Sorcs and bump up spells like Contagion to be more worth to be taken.

[Deathdefy]

Hey Sev and Varg,

If you're not yet sold on,

"Warlocks can cast an infinite number of their memorized infusions, generally of lesser power than wizard and sorcerer since they do not consume any resources, with eldritch blast making up the rest of the power gap",

then let me try and convince you that you should be.


No to mass death / helpless inducing spells:

Mass Hold should not be included. We do not need another caster who does Mass Hold + Energy Burst for efficient epic trash clearing. Bard, Sorc and Wiz's boring spell rotation for Epic trash is sufficient (and very powerful which is why the community wants it included).

Wail and other AoE insta-death spells should also not be included. The community is worried Warlock will be underpowered, so they're arguing to ensure minimum tools they know will be sufficient to make Warlock useful stay included. Again, Bard, Sorc and Wizard, are enough classes to have AoE insta-death. Someone was even arguing for Warlock getting +1 Necro as a past life which I think is indicative of the mentality. You can actually make it a distinct class, not Wiz/Sorc 2.0.

Including the awesome, essentially obligatory, spells (AoE incapacitators via death or +50% damage helpless) to clog up Warlock's top tier spells, and mandate yet another identical spell rotation through epic trash, would lose the opportunity to add a distinct and iconic flavour of dnd. I accept that Eldritch Blast, in conjunction with the enhancement trees and granted feats from level progression, will make Warlock feel somewhat different to the existing casters even if it's going to have the same casting rotation. I do not accept that to mean its spell choices and SP based usage should therefore be samey on the basis that the flavour differentiation is done.

I'm not a "gotta be PnP rules" advocate. I think Warlock will be more fun, unique and popular for longer, without being underpowered, if you don't include the death spells they also didn't receive in PnP - and I'd bet they probably didn't receive them at least partially for the reasons of class distinctness.


Yes to infinitely castable infusions:

If you adopt the 'infinite casting but no AoE helpless/death' model, then possibly including Finger of Death or even PK or both to placate people, without ruining the distinctness of Warlock like Wail or Mass Hold would. Warlock's got Word of Changing which was a single target polymorph - whether Finger or PK or Flesh to Stone is closest I'm unsure, but single target incapacitators/killers are a reasonable inclusion if some degree of compromise on death spells is necessary.

Infinitely castable infusions - up to and included decent ones like Flesh to Stone, Otto's of some variety, and Hold Monster would make for a genuinely unique feeling and strong new caster. I understand that something SLA-ish will be in the trees, but heck, Clerics in DD, Sorcs in every tree, FvS in AoV and Wizards in Archmage all have basically infinitely castable SLAs. Literally every caster class has this already. I know it'll be 0 SP, not 1 SP, or even 10SP at the high end, but that's not actually a distinction that affects play style or feel.

Pre-enhancement pass, I had an Archmage with SLAs for Hypnotism, Web, and Phantasmal Killer. It was crazy enjoyable to play - basically 3 useful, infinitely castable level 1 - 4 spells (again, there really is no difference between a 10SP spell and a 0SP spell). That playstyle is entirely gone now - there's still Shiradi Casters and Light based Divines that use SLAs, but that's pure damage. Warlock could get some of that original Archmage flavour back, but far better. To clarify, I'm not spruiking for Web and Hypnotism to now be included - just saying that the many slightly less powerful spells thing isn't in the game anymore but was the most fun build I ever played in ddo even without Eldritch blast or interesting enhancements!

A similar, unique vibe could easily be created with warlock. You have freebie not amazing, but ultimately strong spells (particularly if you add Wall of Perilous Flame, Evard's, and/or Word of Changing), and can run about casting single target spells incapacitation spells or Eldritch Blasting. It would, and still could, be enjoyable unique gameplay.

Re: spell points, I'd still grant some for class and ED synergies. Probably akin to Paladin / Ranger since they're not actually used for casting infusions. I'd suggest using them to limit the SLAs from the enhancement trees - the important parts of free castings are the infusions. That could allow for more powerful SLAs making for more difficult choices amongst the trees if you balance it interestingly so that "must go Fey for Leap of Faith" becomes a more difficult decision. Anyway SLAs aren't my main concern.


Methodology plea

In complete seriousness, please appraise the arguments and reasoning in this thread on the basis of good, long-term design. Don't appease the community based on number of posters or (god-forbid) posts by the same individuals, because, the only guarantee about the community is that it is fickle.

If you go with 'same endgame spells + same sp cost model', warlock is primarily just Eldritch Blast. People will play it, enjoy its power as sorc + eldritch blast to offset some SP costs for a few months, then get bored by it.

The 'actually is how a warlock is supposed to cast spells in dnd' model was:
excellent design,
is translatable into ddo, and
would be vastly superior to Yet Another Mass-Hold / AoE Deathspell (YAMHAED - frustratingly close to yamhead) arcane caster.

[songswrath]

Well, how often you have seen people actually use Contagion (various disease), Bestow Curse, Ghul Touch, Doom, Scare? Those are actually on the proposed list but if you can instead choose Dimension Door, Displacement, Haste and Stoneskin I guess nobody ever would even consider those spells. I would remove DD & Haste and leave that for Bards, Wizards and Sorcs and bump up spells like Contagion to be more worth to be taken.

ahhh NO !!!why force **** spells on ppl ? warlocks need to have useful list seeing that they can only slot a few vs. other casters.

[SisAmethyst]

Yes Dryad is ONE type of fey and DRYADS tend to be neutral but there are Fey of EVERY alignment thus it makes sense if the devs feel it necessary to tie the pacts to alignments than Fey would be the any alignment one that and Dragon if we ever get it, celestial would of course be Any Good"

That said I don't think Locks should have any alignment restrictions at all there's PLENTY of lore in both the PnP books and various book series of Warlocks of every alignment making pacts with patrons of any alignment.

In fact the only thing that supports alignment restrictions is "Game Rule Information" which directly conflicts with what the Lore right before it says. (Specifically talking about 3.5 here)

Honestly though that doesn't even matter since the Devs are smart enough to realize shackling themselves to 3.5 would greatly limit DDO...this is Dungeons & Dragons Online...DnD...no mention of an edition...it is it's own edition with a Council of DMs that implement their own house rules.

I know DDO is not D&D but the reason of alignment restrictions aren't to follow any PnP book. But a class should be standing on it's own and have it's own character, flavor and feel. Alignment restrictions are in fact just a tool to accomplish that for example for Bards and Barbarians. Otherwise we can just take the Wizard class, give them the HP/SP of a Bard, a new name and we are ready to go with Warlock... if that is what we are striving for then honestly we don't need Warlock as a class, just provide a new Enhancement tree like the Harper!

[Silverleafeon]

Suggested Changes in red (partly stolen from other posters)

Pact Spells

As mentioned in the feat table, Pacts provide spells as you level up. These are the spells that you can get from Pacts:

Spellbook Level	Fey	Fiend	Great Old One
1	"Command"	"Rage"	"Entangle"
2	"Blindness"	"Fire Shield"	"Knock"
3	"Greater Command"	Slow	"Phantasmal Killer"
4	Mind Fog	"Binding Chain"	"Cloud Kill"
5	"Otto's Sphere of Dancing"	Slay Living	"Power Word: Blind"
6	"Otto's Irresistible Dance"	"Howl of Terror"	"Power Word: Kill"

You can also add some spells to your spellbook by taking Tainted Scholar Cores, which will be discussed at a future time.


Warlock Spells
This is the list of spells available to Warlocks as they level up. Reminder that you can gain at most two spells from each level!

Level 1
Bane
Cause Fear
Charm Person
Detect Secret Doors
Doom
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Grease
Hypnotism
Jump
Master's Touch
Nightshield
Ooze Puppet
Otto's Resistible Dance
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Energy
See Invisibility
Shield
Sleep
Summon Monster I
Touch of Idiocy


Level 2
Blur
Command Undead
Dispel Magic
Fog Cloud
Ghoul Touch
Invisibility
Protection from Energy
Ray of Exhaustion
Scare
Sleet Storm
Suggestion
Summon Monster III
Water Breathing


Level 3
Banishment
Bestow Curse
Charm Monster
Contagion
Deep Slumber
Dimension Door
Displacement
Enervation
Fear
Haste
Solid Fog
Stoneskin
Summon Monster IV


Level 4
Dismissal
Dominate Person
Flesh to Stone
Greater Dispel Magic
Hold Monster
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
Protection from Elements

Summon Monster VI
Symbol of Fear
Symbol of Persuasion
Teleport
True Seeing
Waves of Fatigue


Level 5
Circle of Death
Control Undead
Create Undead
Finger of Death
Globe of Invulnerability
Greater Teleport
Hold Person, Mass
Invisibility, Mass
Mind Fog
"Mass Suggestion"
Protection from Elements, Mass
Shadow Walk
Summon Monster VIII
Symbol of Stunning
Tenser's Transformation
Undeath to Death
Waves of Exhaustion


Level 6
Mass Charm Monster
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster, Mass
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Power Word: Stun
Summon Monster IX
Symbol of Death
Trap the Soul
Wail of the Banshee

[HastyPudding]

Hey Sev and Varg,

If you're not yet sold on,

"Warlocks can cast an infinite number of their memorized infusions, generally of lesser power than wizard and sorcerer since they do not consume any resources, with eldritch blast making up the rest of the power gap",

then let me try and convince you that you should be.


No to mass death / helpless inducing spells:

Mass Hold should not be included. We do not need another caster who does Mass Hold + Energy Burst for efficient epic trash clearing. Bard, Sorc and Wiz's boring spell rotation for Epic trash is sufficient (and very powerful which is why the community wants it included).

Wail and other AoE insta-death spells should also not be included. The community is worried Warlock will be underpowered, so they're arguing to ensure minimum tools they know will be sufficient to make Warlock useful stay included. Again, Bard, Sorc and Wizard, are enough classes to have AoE insta-death. Someone was even arguing for Warlock getting +1 Necro as a past life which I think is indicative of the mentality. You can actually make it a distinct class, not Wiz/Sorc 2.0.

Including the awesome, essentially obligatory, spells (AoE incapacitators via death or +50% damage helpless) to clog up Warlock's top tier spells, and mandate yet another identical spell rotation through epic trash, would lose the opportunity to add a distinct and iconic flavour of dnd. I accept that Eldritch Blast, in conjunction with the enhancement trees and granted feats from level progression, will make Warlock feel somewhat different to the existing casters even if it's going to have the same casting rotation. I do not accept that to mean its spell choices and SP based usage should therefore be samey on the basis that the flavour differentiation is done.

I'm not a "gotta be PnP rules" advocate. I think Warlock will be more fun, unique and popular for longer, without being underpowered, if you don't include the death spells they also didn't receive in PnP - and I'd bet they probably didn't receive them at least partially for the reasons of class distinctness.


Yes to infinitely castable infusions:

If you adopt the 'infinite casting but no AoE helpless/death' model, then possibly including Finger of Death or even PK or both to placate people, without ruining the distinctness of Warlock like Wail or Mass Hold would. Warlock's got Word of Changing which was a single target polymorph - whether Finger or PK or Flesh to Stone is closest I'm unsure, but single target incapacitators/killers are a reasonable inclusion if some degree of compromise on death spells is necessary.

Infinitely castable infusions - up to and included decent ones like Flesh to Stone, Otto's of some variety, and Hold Monster would make for a genuinely unique feeling and strong new caster. I understand that something SLA-ish will be in the trees, but heck, Clerics in DD, Sorcs in every tree, FvS in AoV and Wizards in Archmage all have basically infinitely castable SLAs. Literally every caster class has this already. I know it'll be 0 SP, not 1 SP, or even 10SP at the high end, but that's not actually a distinction that affects play style or feel.

Pre-enhancement pass, I had an Archmage with SLAs for Hypnotism, Web, and Phantasmal Killer. It was crazy enjoyable to play - basically 3 useful, infinitely castable level 1 - 4 spells (again, there really is no difference between a 10SP spell and a 0SP spell). That playstyle is entirely gone now - there's still Shiradi Casters and Light based Divines that use SLAs, but that's pure damage. Warlock could get some of that original Archmage flavour back, but far better. To clarify, I'm not spruiking for Web and Hypnotism to now be included - just saying that the many slightly less powerful spells thing isn't in the game anymore but was the most fun build I ever played in ddo even without Eldritch blast or interesting enhancements!

A similar, unique vibe could easily be created with warlock. You have freebie not amazing, but ultimately strong spells (particularly if you add Wall of Perilous Flame, Evard's, and/or Word of Changing), and can run about casting single target spells incapacitation spells or Eldritch Blasting. It would, and still could, be enjoyable unique gameplay.

Re: spell points, I'd still grant some for class and ED synergies. Probably akin to Paladin / Ranger since they're not actually used for casting infusions. I'd suggest using them to limit the SLAs from the enhancement trees - the important parts of free castings are the infusions. That could allow for more powerful SLAs making for more difficult choices amongst the trees if you balance it interestingly so that "must go Fey for Leap of Faith" becomes a more difficult decision. Anyway SLAs aren't my main concern.


Methodology plea

In complete seriousness, please appraise the arguments and reasoning in this thread on the basis of good, long-term design. Don't appease the community based on number of posters or (god-forbid) posts by the same individuals, because, the only guarantee about the community is that it is fickle.

If you go with 'same endgame spells + same sp cost model', warlock is primarily just Eldritch Blast. People will play it, enjoy its power as sorc + eldritch blast to offset some SP costs for a few months, then get bored by it.

The 'actually is how a warlock is supposed to cast spells in dnd' model was:
excellent design,
is translatable into ddo, and
would be vastly superior to Yet Another Mass-Hold / AoE Deathspell (YAMHAED - frustratingly close to yamhead) arcane caster.

I'm inclined to agree. I don't want to see warlocks become a mass hold/dancing sphere/wail/circle of death caster with a magic auto-attack.

Spells a warlock should be able to cast with no SP cost, as much as they want, without breaking the game (maybe give them a longer cooldown, but that's it):
hypnotism
ghoul touch
crushing despair
bestow curse
contagion
poison
blindness
sleep
deep slumber
touch of idiocy
daze monster
break enchantment
dismissal
banishment
cause fear
scare
fear
obscuring mist
fog cloud
solid fog
cloudkill
feeblemind
true seeing
power word: blind
power word: stun
mind fog
invisibility
halt undead
control undead
suggestion
dominate monster
slow
dimension door
enervation
ray of exhaustion
ray of enfeeblement
waves of exhaustion
waves of fatigue
dispel magic
greater dispel magic
mordenkainen's disjunction
bane
doom
symbol of death
symbol of flame
symbol of pain
symbol of persuasion
symbol of fear
symbol of stunning
symbol of weakness

[SisAmethyst]

ahhh NO !!!why force **** spells on ppl ? warlocks need to have useful list seeing that they can only slot a few vs. other casters.

Why have everybody be the same? Why not try to make unpopular spells better and competitive?

[edrein]

What I remember in PnP, they where a cool class from looks, prestige and flavor but in most campaigns due to the limited number of encounters usually outclassed by any Wizard or Sorc. But on long lasting fights and enduring dungeon crawls they could shine due to not being limited in their number of spell uses. Like a Fighter that can go as long as he has HP, but still a mage with Tensers would be more badass as a fighter then a warlock. They played more like an Arcane Archer or Eldritch Knight so I do understand the link to the Primal Sphere and agree for a melee capstone to make sense but they are still casters and would probably synergy somehow with the Eldritch Knight tree.

The later is probably what the devs and council members have in mind regarding multi classing and the reason for thinking about SP, but if a player is dipping in the wizard tree for EK, he also will get the SP from being wizard multiclass that can be boosted with items, stats, etc. so there wouldn't be any need for additional SP pool on the Warlock for the purpose of multiclassing that somehow contradict with them being unique compared to other casters.

I have never in my years of playing 'spellsword' type characters ever seen a single one of my wizards outlast nor even out carnage a melee warlock that I've ran or others have run. EK was a failed converted tree to DDO and I do not want a melee warlock remotely resembling that. A melee warlock is frankly more akin to being a Swashbuckler than a Warchanter currently.

Atleast that's how the trees should make them play out. The only difference is the warlock has less outright defenses such as high dodge and PRR. Instead you would make it up with damage reduction and MRR. While your damage is dealt by weapons and Eldritch Blast being dealt out either as Hideous Blow (an active attack ability), Eldritch Glaive (a summonable weapon/THF toggle), or Eldritch Claws (an active doublestrike attack or summonable weapon/unarmed toggle).

[Failedlegend]

with a magic auto-attack.

I actually quite like the way their planning to implement EB its pretty cool and covers the stuff like eldirtch claws/glaive and well any eldritch weapon you want.

Also don't forget that the trees will likely make a HUGE difference how Lock plays

[Ayseifn]

I'd love for Glaive to crib the code from Shadowdancers Dark Imbuement epic moment but swap the damage to be a percentage of your blast or maybe just not work with spell power. That epic moment is bad for an epic moment so should be changed anyway, would be a pretty good fit for Eldritch Glaive though since it'd work on all weapons instead of being weak like druid scimitar summons.

[Vargouille]

Still reading along, a few excellent posts today, sorry I haven't had more time to reply individually to those posts yet.

I encourage more posts on Warlocks, especially by anyone who hasn't spoken up yet on any particular Warlock topics.

[voodoogroves]

Still reading along, a few excellent posts today, sorry I haven't had more time to reply individually to those posts yet.

I encourage more posts on Warlocks, especially by anyone who hasn't spoken up yet on any particular Warlock topics.

In that case, i'm not sure if it has been said or suggested yet, but I'd love a flame-blade-like ability called "eldritch glaive" that created a two-handed weapon for the warlock. You could even pattern it after Rahl's Might.

;-)

[SisAmethyst]

I have never in my years of playing 'spellsword' type characters ever seen a single one of my wizards outlast nor even out carnage a melee warlock that I've ran or others have run. EK was a failed converted tree to DDO and I do not want a melee warlock remotely resembling that. A melee warlock is frankly more akin to being a Swashbuckler than a Warchanter currently.

At least that's how the trees should make them play out. The only difference is the warlock has less outright defenses such as high dodge and PRR. Instead you would make it up with damage reduction and MRR. While your damage is dealt by weapons and Eldritch Blast being dealt out either as Hideous Blow (an active attack ability), Eldritch Glaive (a summonable weapon/THF toggle), or Eldritch Claws (an active doublestrike attack or summonable weapon/unarmed toggle).

Maybe my english is bad, not outlast but outclass, with what I mean a high level Wizard/Sorc would use power word kill before the Warlock even can land a hit, he has more single raw power. However when the resources are gone the Warlock still can continue and last longer. If you can prepare for an encounter or a situation the Wizard can prepare dedicated spells or read from scrolls, while the Warlock is more the spontaneous guy that just keep pulling asses out of his sleeve when the others are already exhausted. Unfortunately as far as I remember the Eldritch Blast didn't scaled well into higher levels, but my point was more that a Warlock played different compared to the usual Wizard or Sorc, but at that times Swashbuckler wasn't on our table.

I see your point thou but I also see players wanting to mix the Warlock with EK. I actually have to try them out on Lamaland and while I really enjoy the Swashbuckler I certainly not want Warlocks to feel the exact same. Maybe more the evil Twin of the Swashbuckler that is malicious and cruel and like to torture and rip enemies apart. The Eldritch abilities are merely to finish off or provide a steady flow of damage, but the real damage come from the applied disease and curses that eat the opponents from the inside. So you are not as swift and quick or single target focused as the Swashbuckler but not less devastating with your AoE against multiple targets.

[HatsuharuZ]

In the 3.5 and the proposed DDO version of Warlocks, they have very few spell slots. However, all of the abilities they had in 3.5 could be used many, many times. Most likely, Warlocks aren't going to have such a lack of limitations in DDO. I can work with that. However, I do not feel that these precious spell slots should be taken up by spells that:

1) Cause the target to make a save or take a static penalty

and

2) Do not scale at all.

The reason being, a spell that is the same at level 1 as it is at level 10 is going to get progressively less and less useful without some sort of scaling. Take magic missile, for example.

For me, when playing a sorcerer or wizard it's much easier to use spells that cause damage, death or helplessness, as opposed to things like Bestow Curse. The damage I get from something like a combination of Hold Monster and (insert name of evocation spell here) on a particular target is going to severely outweigh the benefit of a successful casting of a spell that gives a static save penalty. That's why I was insisting on better spells than the arcane spell list can give.



On another note, Vargouille didn't promise new spells, despite expressing interesting in making them. Most likely messing with spells is going to cut into time he was going to use to make 3 enhancement trees for Warlocks... which would upset people as much as, if not more than, keeping the Warlock spell list as a subset of the arcane spell list. Alas. ;___;

[TromboneFireTurtle]

For the record I'd have no problems with the Devs adding a few NPC type Classes like Blacksmith, Guide, Healer and Seer.

I'm not sure how well Seer could be translated to the game, as it was always subject to DM fiat.

[dlsidhe]

Just quick thoughts:

1. I'm generally in favor of restricting alignments for Warlocks, but this is Eberron first and foremost. Thus, alignment matters less.
2. I don't like using spell points for Warlocks. However, it's the system we have for spellcasters, so it makes sense to make use of it. That said, Warlocks should get something that increases their regeneration from echoes to the point that they can continue to functionally cast forever.
3. The ability to convert the force damage to untyped needs to be a very low hanging fruit, like tier one or two. Tier three means that a 12 point investment in a particular tree becomes essentially required for any warlock. Compare to rangers - any ranger can grab infinite arrows for 2AP. For 6AP, any rogue can have dex-to-hit and damage with a melee weapon of choice. Wizards can get two SLAs, etc.
4. Soul Eater sounds like a place to put some SP rejuvenation and temp HP/self healing to me.
5. OMG WARLOCKS! My love of RP/Flavor builds means that I'm hyped for a Drow Fey-Pact Soul Eater. Please be as awesome as I think it can be.

[Cantor]

Posted elsewhere andsomeone linked me here (ty).

EB dc should be on shape not pact. A wiz can hit that high fort save mob with cc, need options.
single, no save
cone, reflex
chain, fort
aura, will
those are my ideas, but something needs to be changable in quest. Also like the idea of choosingbetween ice,fire force,untyped acid,lightning with stances

[kumagnificent]

Cool feedback

As with many of the other posters, I'd also like to see new spells for Warlocks. They don't have to be newly coded, or even "cut and paste from D&D spell list" like some intellectually challenged poster suggested.

I suggest just tweaking the current warlock spell list to give it more flavour, and functionality, of warlocks.

Instead of resistible dance, you can have Bind! - enemy bound with tentacles (there are already animations in-game for this), STR save negates, same spell effect, just different animations.
I already suggested instead of Finger of Death, you can have Hurl Through Hell (like Slay Living cuz I like the idea that you have to be in touch range to hurl an enemy through hell) - enemy is sent through hell (think Tea With The Queen animation with fiery aura instead of green), after 5 seconds, reappears and is dealt damage (maybe fire/bane?) OR death (will save negates death).
Instead of Otto's Sphere of Dancing you can have Evard's Tentacles - AoE (like disco sphere) black tentacles, roots enemies, STR save negates. Again, same spell effect, just different animations.
Instead of Obscuring Mist, you can have Blackness - aura effect that blinds enemies within range.


This may lead to a coding nightmare, though - so, take it easy =)

[Drakos]

In the basic Player's Handbook maybe.

But Paladins taking the alignment of their Deity {usually a Lawful Good deity would be chosen anyway} was an accepted house rule for many long before 3rd Ed. was even thought of!
Rules for Anti-Paladins were set out in Dragon Magazine on at least one occasion long prior to 3rd Ed.

I have to disagree with you here. I've played D&D since first print run of 1e and I have yet to play with a group or DM would would tolerate a Paladin other than LG. Including the 3.5e UA which allowed them as an alternate option, we never did allow them.

As for Anti-Paladin, they were prior Paladin's who turned Chaotic Evil and became the antithesis of their former selves.