Warlocks!

[LrdSlvrhnd]

[*]Most Warlock spells based on existing DDO spells.

Also, no new spells? Seriously? You couldn't be bothered to make some new spells at least? You could have just copied them from dnd wiki. Just saying.

Dang! Why didn't someone tell me making spells was this easy? Why did we devs spend weeks making sure Earthquake worked right, for both players and monsters? Should have just copied the text and BAM, done!

Oh my, so funny. Can't stop laughing. Yup, an answer like that is totally gonna take you somewhere.

Sorry if I was expecting new spells for a totally new class. How long have you been working on Warlocks exactly? At least one new spell was too much to ask for? Better make Eldritch Blast a boring toggle. My bad. Keep going.

Good job. See, I can use sarcasm too.

You asked something, he responded in much the same tone you used, and then you got upset by it.

You rather snarkily implied all they had to do would be to copy from the D&D wiki. He rather snarkily replied that no, it wasn't that simple.

Also, "most based on existing spells" rather easily translates to "some NOT based on existing spells, ie NEW STUFF". Don't complain because you didn't read before snarking and was then responded to in kind.

[Calinthus]

The pet? Please we need npc a.i. unbroken.. Or make it like a cosmetic pet that can do some minor damage like a shoulder lantern archeron. Or a cosmetic imp who cant be damaged and wont fight but you can order to search disable and open locks? }

This.

[redoubt]

I would appreciate some help understanding eldritch blast.

A masterwork rapier at level 1 will do 1d6 + STR mod. Eldritch blast will do 1d6 force damage * (some amount of spell power). The attack rate of both of these is the same?

At level 3, you might have a +1 frost rapier. That would do 1d6 + 1d6 + 1 + STR mod. Blast would do: 2d6 + 1d4 * ( some amount of spell power.) Both attack at the same speed.

The weapon in had does NOT apply damage at all, correct? Thus making them roughly the same damage at these levels? (I'm not ready to start trying to figure out how the damage adds up at higher levels yet.

How do different weapons with different attack speeds factor in? If you have a max'd TWF line do you get extra blasts on the 80% offhand attacks? If you do 10k stars or manyshot, do you get extra attacks on the extra arrows? Do doublestrike and doubleshot and melee / ranged alacrity speed up the rate you throw eldritch blasts? Will using Divine Power (or anything that raised you to full bab increase your attack rate? Would the SWF line increase your attack speed with the blast? Would THF create "glancing" blasts? Would improved precise shot allow the blast to hit multiple targets in a line?


Thanks.

[Drakos]

So really, stop crying about alignment. It is stated in the complete arcane that POWERFUL CREATURES can instill a pact. What is to stop a paladin consulting with a Solar angel to gain power at the price of his soul. A sacrifice for the greatest good to better understand the powers of evil so they can destroy them? Or a great wyrm gold dragon instilling a bit of its tired old soul to a youthful and promising martial artist to aid them in keeping the law and good of the land? D&D isn't meant to be run strictly by the books, it even states that the books are just guidelines. That is why there are so many home brew versions and rules. Not everything applies to one person's perceptions.

In that same book it also states that Warlocks Alignment must be Chaotic or Evil.

So, no I will not stop expressing my opinion on alignment.

[SirValentine]

I encourage anyone suggesting that Warlocks not be able to use any metamagics think about what that means for the larger class design. My sorcerer wouldn't know what to do with all his feat slots if metamagics were not an option (and saving throws didn't matter!) We may also make some more general, selectable feats for customizing Warlock (epic feats are more likely than heroic ones), but what feats are Warlocks expected to take, if not some metamagics?

I didn't read the whole thread, but if anyone actually suggested not allowing any metamagic on any Warlock SPELLS, then I agree with you. Metamagics should work on their spells.

However, what you quoted only talked specifically about the not-really-a-spell, use-all-the-time-for-no-SP Eldritch Blast. If the bread-and-butter DPS of Warlock allows, say, Maximize, then, no, you don't get variety and build decisions, you get every single Warlock taking Maximize.

Let Warlock spells use all the same metamagics as anybody else's spells. But please think carefully about letting any affect Eldritch Blast. I'm not sure that's the right way to go.

[SirValentine]

Why did we devs spend weeks making sure Earthquake worked right, for both players and monsters? Should have just copied the text and BAM, done!

Dang, you mean waste weeks trying and failing? Because the devs didn't get even close to getting Earthquake right.

I'd call it 2/3 broken, since 2 of the 3 classes that should have it, DON'T.

Yes, copying the text isn't enough...but reading the text makes for a pretty good start.

[Rasputin]

You know we've been calling for Tieflings, and with Warlocks coming out this year it would be the perfect time to bring them out together. A new iconic level 15 Tiefling Warlock would synergize nicely with epic Shavarath, too.

[Singular]

Question Varg:

How well will Eldritch Blast scale into Epic levels??

This question is part of why we haven't nailed down what percentage of Spell Power will affect your Eldritch Blast damage. We may also add some Epic Feats that add Eldritch Blast dice or something along those lines.

The above is probably the single most important aspect of the class - and balancing this, even just for heroics, must be difficult. It will make or break the class if its main damage ability doesn't work well enough in epic, even EE content

Can you shed any light on how you are going about figuring that out? What is the standard of dps output?

RE: the metamagic discussion. To me it seems obvious that you'd want several different ways of boosting Eldritch Blast damage. The problem here is that the Warlock class looks like a one trick pony w/regards to dps output - so if metas work on EB, then all Warlocks will take them. That's not necessarily a bad thing - probably all good Sorcs take Emp/Max, too.

But I wonder if you can't make several different ways of improving/modifying the EB? For ex., perhaps one tree is good at speeding up the animation and another one adds raw damage, while another adds effects - but not all can be taken. Or perhaps toggles with analogous functions to Precision / Power Attack so you could choose either to overcome damage mitigation or increase dps somewhat.

Otherwise, cool that you're adding another class. It would be totally awesome if you could add its own spells, too, but I understand you may not have the time to do so. And I appreciated your sarcasm earlier - that was great and feels more personable.

[redoubt]

The above is probably the single most important aspect of the class - and balancing this, even just for heroics, must be difficult. It will make or break the class if its main damage ability doesn't work well enough in epic, even EE content

Can you shed any light on how you are going about figuring that out? What is the standard of dps output?

RE: the metamagic discussion. To me it seems obvious that you'd want several different ways of boosting Eldritch Blast damage. The problem here is that the Warlock class looks like a one trick pony w/regards to dps output - so if metas work on EB, then all Warlocks will take them. That's not necessarily a bad thing - probably all good Sorcs take Emp/Max, too.

But I wonder if you can't make several different ways of improving/modifying the EB? For ex., perhaps one tree is good at speeding up the animation and another one adds raw damage, while another adds effects - but not all can be taken. Or perhaps toggles with analogous functions to Precision / Power Attack so you could choose either to overcome damage mitigation or increase dps somewhat.

Otherwise, cool that you're adding another class. It would be totally awesome if you could add its own spells, too, but I understand you may not have the time to do so. And I appreciated your sarcasm earlier - that was great and feels more personable.

I think you almost have to do it in the enhancements because the feats are supposed to increase the cost of spells, which you can't do with the EB.

I asked several questions about melee and ranged feats and their affect on EB. Using those lines to improve EB would make the class unique. (But I admit, I don't know the "traditional" warlock, only what is posted here, so I'm just tossing out an idea.)
-- Instead of maximize, empower and heighten you take one of the lines of melee / ranged feats. SWF would speed up the animation, TWF would provide off hand EB procs etc. Improved crit and overwhelming crit could improve EB... Then you could have a good melee character that can hit the toggle and go back and forth with weapons and EB. ???

[Silverleafeon]

The reason why Warlock's need Magical Training is that it grants Echoes of Power (which can be increased by twisting/having Endless Faith:
"Echoes of Power is a temporary SP regeneration that begins once a character drops below 12 SP. It will restore 4 SP every 6 seconds until you have reached 12 SP again. The effect cannot put you over 12 SP, unless you have more than 0 when it begins to regenerate your SP (ex, 3, it will recharge to, 15 before stopping). "
"Echoes of power restore up to [18/24/30] sp."

Any sort of continual spell point is an essential key to the Warlock class.
It belongs.




How many good full caster builds don't have maximize anyway?

Favored Souls ~ wants it for Avenging Light, Capstone
Clerics ~ wants it for Divine Disciple
Sorcerer ~ wants it for their SLAs
Wizards ~ wants it for Archmage SLA plus Shiradai plus




As far as all Warlocks being Necro Focused, I could see an enchantment version with Otto's Resistible + Disco + Mass Hold Monster easily.



Warlocks could twist in Exalted Angels Soundburst and Avenging Light along with Draconic's Energy Burst and Hell Ball (all of which can be Charisma based.



As far as Bard spell points not being enough, I have solo/dual healed Shroud with a Bard for 40 completions. Yes I drank some SP pots at times, but Fawn did it while pugging it out night after night so she could cleanse her greensteels. The mental toughness line should be very attractive to Warlocks. A really good Bard can have impressive spell points.



Should they get a supplement/bonus to Echoes of Power?
I think definitely plan on having that inside the Warlock's Epic Destiny.

[Uska]

In that same book it also states that Warlocks Alignment must be Chaotic or Evil.

So, no I will not stop expressing my opinion on alignment.

Me either and while I loathe the class I am also against them having to use SP

[Silverleafeon]

When Varg talked about the default ED being Primal, I thought initially, "ok". However, there was something not quite right and I realized that the stat in the right column is never CHR (peeks pver at ddowiki to make sure). That doesn't seem right as the "home" for Warlocks. Any chance to include CHR as a stat for at least one of these (I'm thinking Shiradi makes the most sense?).

Just a thought that I had! Thanks for reading!

All ED probably ought to convert to the Divine Crusader standard of Tri Ability scores.

Also, as mention long ago, the innates of Magistar and Draconic are improperly written.
{This might become a problem in the future and Sev has already mentioned revisting these two.}

As the ED forms evolved things changed and a bit of tidying up is in order.

{Perhaps at least doing as you suggest by the time Warlock gets their own ED and hopefully before.}

[Silverleafeon]

You know we've been calling for Tieflings, and with Warlocks coming out this year it would be the perfect time to bring them out together. A new iconic level 15 Tiefling Warlock would synergize nicely with epic Shavarath, too.

Definitely should be on a wish list. I imagine with Level 30 and Sentient Weapons coming its a packed year.

I would be willing to forego tails and have horns hidden by helmets to gain Tieflings asap.
Be nice to have Assimtars too, maybe a outsider Race Pack?

[Chi_Ryu]

In that same book it also states that Warlocks Alignment must be Chaotic or Evil.

So, no I will not stop expressing my opinion on alignment.

Except... it's contradictory. Let's have a look through The Complete Arcane (Richard Baker, 2004):

Sure, in the alignment section of p7 it does state "Any evil or any chaotic", but that is not as clear when you consider the actual descriptions given elsewhere:
p5: "Adventures: Many warlocks are champions of dark and chaotic powers." - doesn't imply all in the slightest.
p6: "Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are both)" or "A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil" and finally "just as a sorcerer is not beholden to the magic-wielding ancestor that bequeathed his bloodline with arcane power, a warlock is not bound to follow the source that gifted him with magic."

And that's just 3.5E. From what I understand, none of this applies in 5E.

I therefore have no qualms about some Warlocks being lawful, good and/or lawful good (dependent on the nature of the pact), regardless of the "Game Rule Information" section limiting it so much. I refer you to the opening paragraphs of the Dungeon Master Handbook, 1st edition: "Pronouncements there may be, but they are not from "on high" as respects your game.".

[Crysae]

Hey Varg,

I agree with your stance on alignment restriction (based on your pact makes loads of sense, seriously people get over your archaic ideologies, this game is only loosely based on 3.5e).

I would like to see 1-2 more Pacts, but I can also understand why you might not be able to implement them (Celestial and Draconic would be kickass).

I'm not a fan of spell points, but I understand why you feel the need to use them to fit the class into the game. I would like to see either Magical Training and some sort of scaling mana regeneration (to represent Warlock infinite castings).

The spell lists obviously need refinement, but I gather you know that. I would like to see some new spells, like the Vampiric Touch ability (dat self heal). Maybe we can finally see Evard's? I'm really wary of having so many death effects, they make flavorful sense but it feels too much like making a pale master reskinned as a sorcerer.

That said, I'm a big fan of your implementation of Eldritch Blast (provided it scales well, the current proposed dice doesn't seem like enough), and I fully support new epic feats to push the class (or heroic feats - I'd love an orb mastery feat, but I'm addicted to orbs).

I'm really excited by the idea of a melee Warlock, and I hope that they get self heals in some fashion beyond scrolls (these really don't hold up in epic content).

I'll throw in another vote for an Eldritch Glaive or similar ability, provided it's properly implemented (not like drood, fire damage is resisted by too many things).

Primal seems like a weird Sphere for the class. Am I missing some sort of synergy here? I assume Eldritch Blast at least builds spirit? If you don't want another Arcane class, I think even Divine would be a better fit.

Probably not ironed out yet, but any idea what the active/passive past life is going to look like yet?

Thanks for your hard work, I know you get a lot of flak but no other game affords me this level of customization.

I feel like i had more things to say but I stayed up way too late reading this thread

[Silverleafeon]

I disagree, In PnP Warlocks are also masters of UMD. It is a class skill and they get Skill Mastery with it. They even have special uses of UMD in the creation of magic items, whereas Artificers follow the normal rules except for the temporary ones with Imbue.

Well said.

Pen and Paper Warlocks have serious almost broken abilities for magical items.

[Silverleafeon]

It would be very easy to setup a scenario in a PnP game that was similar to Running and it would not be wrong in any way to expect a Paladin to come up with a way around the problem of being attacked by good aligned NPCs. The linear progression that is necessary in a computer game was non-existent in the D&D games I played.

I recall a early Dragon Magazine Article (it might have been the first year of print) that was called "For God and Country". It brought up a DM making a campaign with Wilderness versus a Castle Kingdom. Should the Rangers follow the Druids in protecting the wilderness or should they follow the like alignment Paladins who vaulted pushing farmland further and further into the enchanted forests?

Eberron brings these themes foremost with "Alignment is many shades of Grey. Nothing is black or white. It is possible for metallic dragons to be evil as well as Clerics to not follow their deities alignments." Since this game is based in Eberron we might want to take the thematic elements and lore of Eberron seriously?

[Silverleafeon]

What is the heroic past life for Warlock going to be?

It would be nice if the purchasable one had +3d6 EB damage for it?


The Passive stacking 3X ones ought to be more universal.

Spell pen is already covered twice.
Evocation is already covered.
Conjuration is already covered.
Saving throws are visited twice.
Hit points are covered.
Melee Damage is covered.
Ranged Damage is covered.

+1 Necromancy DC is a possible choice since Warlock is Enchantment/Necromancy/Evocation focus atm.

[Silverleafeon]

Xoham and a few other posters have convinced me that the 'warlocks cast spells and don't have infinite invocations' idea is abandonable.

I think the barrier, to my mind at least, is that being able to cast infinite Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Deaths, Circle of Deaths, or Mass Hold Monsters, would be hugely OP.

Delete those spells - and only those spells - from the spell list.

Raise the invocation level of flesh to stone and hold monster to 6 and 5 respectively.

Otto's Irresistable Dance, PW:Kill and Otto's Sphere of Dancing to me are probably just on the reasonable side of infinitely castable, but if you wanted to be cautious and change them to something less powerful I think that would be reasonable, but the cooldown on the latter two is probably a sufficient safeguard in my opinion.

For the sake of ED and other classes synergy, go ahead and keep granting Warlocks spell points. I don't think that's unreasonable or particularly strange - I've had no small number of pure rogues with ~450SP wandering around in heroics.

I respectfully object politely but strongly to the thought making a warlock give up Hellball, Mass Hold Monster and Wail. Perhaps Ruin might be a bit expensive for a Warlock but Mass Hold + Energy Burst ought to be an option imho. Any self Respecting Fiendish Warlock ought to be able to cast Hellball routinely as a show of respect for their patron.

[Silverleafeon]

I would like to see 1-2 more Pacts, but I can also understand why you might not be able to implement them (Celestial and Draconic would be kickass).

Aye

I'm not a fan of spell points, but I understand why you feel the need to use them to fit the class into the game. I would like to see either Magical Training and some sort of scaling mana regeneration (to represent Warlock infinite castings).

Nods, we kicked that bucket around in the Warlock Class Project and it eventually seemed a necessity to go spell points due to Epic Destinies and other reasons. I definitely agree with Magical Training plus.

The spell lists obviously need refinement, but I gather you know that. I would like to see some new spells, like the Vampiric Touch ability (dat self heal). Maybe we can finally see Evard's? I'm really wary of having so many death effects, they make flavorful sense but it feels too much like making a pale master reskinned as a sorcerer.

I would very, very much like to see some more Epic Feat Spells brought into the game, particularly cost efficient ones. Ruin and Hellball are both expensive. Sev's low sp cost DoT Epic (destiny?) Feat Spell would help Warlock as well as all the other Casting classes. As Raid Bosses approach 1 million hit points, realize that none of the casters gain much of any extra spell points from the increase from 25 to 28, but the monster hit points keep going up.

Personally I now play Favored Soul simply for the spell points. And how many Favored Soul 2 level splashes are we seeing now a days.

Please bring out two more high level efficient Epic/Epic Destiny spells this year.

That said, I'm a big fan of your implementation of Eldritch Blast (provided it scales well, the current proposed dice doesn't seem like enough), and I fully support new epic feats to push the class (or heroic feats - I'd love an orb mastery feat, but I'm addicted to orbs).

Good place for Warlock Purchasable Past Life feat +2d6 or +3d6 EB? And yes the EB systems seems well thought out.

I'm really excited by the idea of a melee Warlock, and I hope that they get self heals in some fashion beyond scrolls (these really don't hold up in epic content).

Self healing is always a major concern with classes.

I'll throw in another vote for an Eldritch Glaive or similar ability, provided it's properly implemented (not like drood, fire damage is resisted by too many things).

I'll support you on that. We do need melee options of some sort. The Fey AoE somehow always on seems a first step.

Primal seems like a weird Sphere for the class. Am I missing some sort of synergy here? I assume Eldritch Blast at least builds spirit? If you don't want another Arcane class, I think even Divine would be a better fit.

At first I assumed that starting in the Primal Sphere does not necessary mean caster levels will be tied to Primal.

I was hoping for a new sphere, Planar (but that is too much work). Add CHA ability increases to all of Primal would be a good start (tri choices). I am kind of worried about linking Warlock caster levels to Primal, but that does yield a nice melee option, maybe?

Either way, Warlock needs its own Epic Destiny (as does Artificer {Martial sphere perhaps or would arcane be better}?

Probably not ironed out yet, but any idea what the active/passive past life is going to look like yet?

Hopefully worth pursuing, woot!

Thanks for your hard work, I know you get a lot of flak but no other game affords me this level of customization.

Aye and +1

I feel like i had more things to say but I stayed up way too late reading this thread

Lol, me too....