Warlocks!

[Uska]

Not having spell power would also lock them out of grabbing epic spells as feats, things like Hellball should be on the cards for warlock. Well IMO at least. If you go that far and want to make epic spells available to them then you have to think about the support that'd need, so spell point pool and metas come in to the equation. I'd honestly prefer if they could get metas like max/empower from enhancements and that they'd only apply to epic spells, epic enhancements and for heroic stuff only work on warlock spells/invocations and eldritch blasts.



They may be better in heroic but scaling into epic will be bad because they're capped at level 6 spells with heighten. They run the risk of being another artificer, awesome in heroic but garbage in epic elite. At least give warlock spells optional riders dependant on pact like level drain, there'd be no real need to "balance" their spell casting against other arcanes because hopefully they'd be able to spam it and at least get something else out of it than just seeing a save over a mobs head and losing SP.




NWN2 is a video game by Obsidian Entertainment and based off of DnD 3.5, I think you're confused with NWN Online.

when I talk NW I am only talking the online game not the good but long outdated CRPG which has no place in a discussion about MMO

[janave]

What will warlock add to the party that other classes arent doing already?
Will there be some new gameplay aspect added where they contribute best?

[The_Human_Cypher]

For everyone complaining about alignments: Both 4e and 5e Warlocks have no alignment restriction. Varg stated in the first post that 5e is a major inspiration for DDO Warlock class. The same can be said about them having a spell list instead of invocation list, but then on 5e they can recover spells faster than the other casting classes (only requires a short rest instead of an extended rest). So they end up using a lot more spells than their full caster cousins.

Without alignment restrictions for the Warlock class, any splash toon will be possible. So we will seen Warlock / Paladin builds with an Infernal Pact, which is just...funny.

[Holymunchkin]

I am a little worried about blast ability dps.

Assuming half of your spell power applies...



MATH:

9d6 force + 10d4 elemental
=
31.5 force + 25 elemental, on average per hit

400 spell power
45% crit chance
Half spell power affects.

(31.5)*4*(.5)*1.45
+ (25)*4*(.5)*1.45
= 91.35 + 72.5 = 163.85, on average per hit

Assume one cast per second (since that is about where bows/repeaters sit).




CoNcLuSiOnS:

At cap doing only 164 damage per second is rougly 10x under the dps of low-tier epic toons.
The enhancement abilities will need to compensate by 10x, and in some circumstances 20-30x in order to compete with other single target dps in EE.
Of course we can't see how the blast will be modified yet. =)

[janave]

Without alignment restrictions for the Warlock class, any splash toon will be possible. So we will seen Warlock / Paladin builds with an Infernal Pact, which is just...funny.

Almost as funny as palemasters using divine crusader or exalted angel ED. :P

[nibel]

yah and we are based on 3.x chiefly not the terrible edition of 4E and the rather lackluster 5th

Please, since they added half-elf with a Dilettante ability, any criticism about things not being 3e-ish is moot.

[MadCookieQueen]

Okay let's talk alignments..

1. The D&D Wiki that people are fond of posting, you are showing off Homebrew Classes. The wiki is a mix of fan driven content (Homebrew) and WotC (genre) content. Please be mindful of what you post and in fact to be safe, just don't post from the wiki in general.
2. If you do pull out the 3.5 books and look for Warlock with weird alignments please note the following.

a. Alignment changes are a serious role play undertaking and have a place in the PnP game.
b. Per WotC official errata once you take a non Chaotic or Evil alignment you are no longer able to take levels or gain new abilities into Warlock. You will then fall under the same ruleset for ex-Paladins.

3. Yes, pacts do not require an alignment restriction.


Yet, we now should talk about the can of worms this opens up and I believe the players should start a formal petition for this.


As stated the devs looked to 5th edition for ideas on the development of Warlocks. If taking from 5th edition is going to happen, then we will need to update the game to accommodate it. Any D&D PnP person will tell you that when you sit down to play you follow 1 edition's ruleset. If you like something out of a different edition you have to make it work for the ruleset you are playing in.

You absolutely cannot serve 2 different edition masters and have a working game.

That being said, we will need ALL the alignment restrictions removed from the game or we will need the alignment restrictions put onto Warlocks.

Yes...it really is an "either or" situation.



Now on a personal note.

If this game stops being 3.5 then it has lost it's appeal to me. I've already had waning interest in playing since ToEE failed me and being on G-land...well the constant server crashes did not help.

Warlock is not inspiring me to want to spend the time in playing it, XP grind already is not fun and why would I seriously want to torture myself even further.

Luckily I enjoy build making, so that will keep my attention, for a while.

I will begin constructing my Bard/Paladin (Warchanter), Bard/Monk (Swashbuckler Thrower) and Barbarian/Monk (HULK SMASH!) in preparation for u26 as I expect that this is when the alignments will be sorted out and we can begin the transition to 5th edition rules.

However, I do hope to be surprised and that Warlock will have it's restrictions put back on and the 3.5 ruleset will continue as it needs to.






Oh and...drop the spell points and delay the class and give us Invocations, we got a pile of new spells for Artie and Druid...I expect the same for Warlock.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

There are more than the usual amount of bonuses to DC casting in certain Warlock trees, yes.



Right now we're thinking that the base damage (Force) can't be saved against. Pact damage is saved against the same type as the bonus that Pact gives, for half damage:
Fey: Reflexes
Fiend: Fortitude
Great Old One: Will

I'm thinking, and this is pre-coffee so it's possible I missed something, that 10-58 base damage would be insufficient at level 10 and a "please logout because the whole server is disappointed with you" moment at level 20. Considering the mob saves in epic levels, if eldritch blast doesn't have some amazing extra pact damage and DCs to match this'll wind up a splash class at best.

Personally, if this wound up a one-trick pony caster with just enough support spells and whatever else (trick..shaping?) to make it interesting, as long as that trick is viable all the way to 28 (and 30 whenever) that would be fine with me.

[DANTEIL]

I've never had any experience with Warlocks in PnP so I don't have strong preconceived notions for how they should be. But this outline looks intriguing and I am interested to see Warlocks in action. (the Great Old One seems really nice) I am having a hard time, though, trying to imagine what their play style is. Partially because I wonder what their gear might look like. I see that they are Light Armor wearers (for no ASF) -- I didn't look closely but I assume that Enhancement might bump that up, like with Bards? For the Eldritch Blast ability, I'm imagining this is something like pew-pew out of their fingers? (out of the eyes would be cooler, hint) So do they also use weapons? Melee? Bows? Will they carry orbs or caster sticks? Does holding something else interfere with the Eldritch Blast?

I'm looking forward to the early play style demos

[Ikeas]

Suggestions

-Move alignement to "non-whatever" instead of "whatever". So, fiendish pact could be non-good. I'd be happy just seeing warlocks non-lawful myself. Page seven from Unearthed Arcana book clearly states "any evil or chaoitc alignement", tho.

-Change EB damage to untyped/bane (like the extra damage from barbarian trees). Then add force damage in the cores of some tree. Also, I think the extra elemental damage from pacts should be no-save damage, just like the base damage. I mean, we have paladins adding insane light/bane damage with ranged weapons already.

Also, if the EB is affected by "some portion" of Spellpower, Empower/Maximize should work here right?

-Let warlocks select from a short list of utility spell like abilities, up to a maximum of 12 at level 20. You can unlock new SLAs as you level up: some SLAs will be unlocked at lvl 4, 8, 12... make some SLAs cost very (VERY) few SP (well, like SLAs). That way you are giving warlocks SP for multiclass or ED utility, but still giving the "SP free" feeling of the DnD class.

I played for some time a drow warlock on PnP, and the "always free" magic seemed too much for my taste -personal opinion.

-If you think +5 UMD at lvl 2 is too much (and I do think it's too much), change Deceive Item to +1/2 Warlock level to UMD checks.

[nibel]

-If you think +5 UMD at lvl 2 is too much (and I do think it's too much), change Deceive Item to +1/2 Warlock level to UMD checks.

Even that is too much. Remember that Artificers are the ones supposed to be masters of UMD, and even them only get a +2 bonus (technically, a -2 DC, but the end result is the same). Warlocks will already have an advantage of being a Cha-based class with UMD as a class skill. It doesn't have to get any UMD bonus to make the skill viable.

[Chi_Ryu]

when I talk NW I am only talking the online game not the good but long outdated CRPG which has no place in a discussion about MMO

Neverwinter Nights 2 - Release Date: October 31, 2006
Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach - Release Date: February 28, 2006

[macadope]

Any word on the enhancement tree? These days the enhancements are more powerful than feats and even class splits.

[IronClan]

Warlock is one of the worse things I have seen in this game. I will NOT have any desire to play this, except to get my PL needed for my completetionist, and even then +20 heart of wood will get me a free one.

You have lost my trust in the ability to actually design something worthy of being D&D.

This is fail.

Disagree completely I hated this class in pnp and even more here

Because of reasons?

Can either of you offer some reasons why you hate it so vehemently? Some constructive criticism right now is actually really likely to be heard and folded into the end makup of this new class.

I know I know a lot of people think it's futile and there's no point is suggesting things to the Dev's but I'm hear to tell you this is forum BS.

Why is unrestricted alignment so wrong? Because it doesn't fit a narrow archetype?
What is so fail?
What could they do to improve it?

These posts have the feel of someone who doesn't WANT to like something and has already predetermined not to give it a chance... There's certainly nothing in them that resembles a coherent reason to not like something. And sorry but DDO house rules a lot of things that would be hard to implement or simply can't work from PnP, and they also

[Delacroix21]

So many cry babies asking for alignment restrictions because they don't know how to build strong multiclass toons.


Why isn't the focus on important things? Like that gimpy spell list or spell slots? We will have to see what the trees give and how fast Eldritch blast goes off, cause everything else looks straight up weak atm. Also Dev's, seriously why bother adding a unique class with unique abilities if you aren't even going to bother coding those in, and plan on just reusing existing spells?


Preety disappointed here.

[Artagon]

Personally, I always found the pure 3.x warlock to be flavorless and underpowered. It felt like a tacked on and under researched class. Sure, you had some 24 hour buffs, but 9d6 every round does not compete with a Sorceror or Wizard that can meta-magic their DPS into maximized 20d6+ spells that completely blanket an enemy. 4e did two things right. It made Warlock more interesting and flavorful by injecting pacts, and it introduced warlord (even if the vanilla PHB version was meh). 5e took the best parts of 3.x and 4e for the warlock and balanced the class after a great deal of playtesting. I don't have any problem at all that DDO draws inspiration from the various editions. It isn't Dungeons & Dragons 3.5, it is Dungeons & Dragons Online.

My 2c are that 1) Without getting into specifics, some of the issues people are bringing up are resolved via enhancement trees (One thing I can say is that Varg already told this thread that DCs are added in one or more trees). 2) How would you envision giving Warlock SLAs? Enhancements? If so, would you really want to use up all of the goodies of your enhancement trees on getting them? It is almost certain that trees will have SLAs, since almost every arcane tree does. Perhaps that might be enough?

The end question for the whole SLA/SP debate is.. what is the cost/benefit ratio here? Is it meaningful to comb through every single spell they might get and create an SLA version of it? Or can it stand on its own legs with SP if they have some SLAs in the trees and avoid completely reinventing the wheel? Making everything an SLA would likely be pretty costly in man hours.

Do I want more unique spells though? Absolutely.

[slarden]

Exalted Angel: + 3 DC and CHA in tree + light SLAs + mass cure moderate SLA
Unyielding Sentinel: Defensive and HP bonuses plus CHA + renewal SLA
Draconic: Burst DPS + Cha
Shiradi: Double Rainbow and Joy of the Queen goodness that will presumably work with eld blast, Probably useful for multi-class variations.

The fact that is has non-sp based offense + an sp pool for for it's own spell pool which is nice + ED will make warlocks a very effective end-game build immediately.The only remaining question is how useful the eld blast will be in the most difficult EE Content.It looks like a very fun class and will sell well.

[Ziindarax]

Your weapon has no direct effect on Eldritch Blast, but you'll want Spell Power and Spell Criticals.



Spell Critical stats do affect Eldritch Blast.



Charisma is the casting stat for all the things.

Okay, since you've mentioned this thing working off of Weapon attacks, let me ask you something...

Does Doublestrike/DoubleShot chance factor into Eldritch blasts, and does weapon attack speed have any effect on Eldritch Blasting speed, or is the speed constant regardless of what weapon you use?

Also, when yo usay your weapon has no direct effect on Eldritch Blast, does this mean that the weapon's base damage and effects are completely overridden by the eldritch blast (I.E. you weapon does 1d2 + effects if you're using shuriken, but that damage is not applied in any way while Eldritch is toggled on)?


Next, I had a question about the Enlightened Spirit, does this character's Eldritch Blast become, in effect, a weapon imbue? If so, will it stack with spells such as Holy Sword, and Artificer infusions?

Last, but not least, will Eldritch Blasts flag for Shiradi caster bonuses? Would the Fiend Pact secondary damage flag as a fire spell for, say, Red Dragon Destinies Caster Level increases?

Will there be a Celestial Pact that imbues Eldritch Blasts with Light/Good Damage?

[IronClan]

Rename the Great Old Ones to be something less specifically lovecrafty, and leave some room for non-creepy and too-many-squiggly-tentacles.

No, please ignore this person, great old ones is D&D.

[IronClan]

• Itemization for Sonic spellpower and crit is pretty much limited to just Blasting Chime in the House C challenges which top out at ML 20. There's no ToEE, or Greensteel options for Sonic. But there is Thunderforged.

Epic Chord of Reprisals