Warlocks!

[diodore]

I'll let the world in on a secret: I suspect no one in the world is more worried about DDO Warlocks being OP more than me.

What is your goal for the length of time it will take an endgame caster-spec'ed warlock to beat down of an EE bag-of-hitpoints with eldritch blasts? At this point, we've seen what paladins and barbarians can do to that hobgoblin and how. And also how relatively pitiful wizards, say, are at performing this task. Where would you like to see warlocks in this respect?

[Genebob]

So I've been trying to think of a solition to the "infinite cast" nature of playing a pnp warlock, vs the sp bar in ddo. What if there was a free active ability, with a longish cooldown, that gave temporary spell points equal to the cost of the highest sp spell?

That, plus keeping the sp cost of warlock spells low, would keep.warlocks casting, but mitigate exploitation from other casters dipping into warlock.

Other than that I can only think of making a 3rd type of SP bar similar to ki (Infernal power, or the IP bar?) but is always regen-ing. However, I realize that would take too many resources and not sync well with destinies and such...

I haavent posted in years but I don't think this has been suggested so I'm breaking my vow of silence :-D

[Qhualor]

What is your goal for the length of time it will take an endgame caster-spec'ed warlock to beat down of an EE bag-of-hitpoints with eldritch blasts? At this point, we've seen what paladins and barbarians can do to that hobgoblin and how. And also how relatively pitiful wizards, say, are at performing this task. Where would you like to see warlocks in this respect?

The hobgoblin you are referring to I assume you mean from Feast or Famine. That's a bad way to make any dps comparison because that's just a player that buffs his character to the gills before engaging a single target in a controlled environment and has ducks in a row hot bar spamming cornering the dude. I would rather the question be directed to where would you like to see Warlocks in an uncontrolled environment compared to other classes.

[Systern]

Still reading along, a few excellent posts today, sorry I haven't had more time to reply individually to those posts yet.

I encourage more posts on Warlocks, especially by anyone who hasn't spoken up yet on any particular Warlock topics.

I've been thinking about this all weekend, trying to gather my thoughts. I apologize for not using the multiquote function and deleting pages of your text, Varg, but I hope you'll be able to follow along...

Without knowing what exactly is in the enhancement trees, there's still a lot of room for things to change, but from just what's presented, here's my impressions from what's presented.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Warlock melees were expected to be cross classed. Apologies for the confusion. Two of the trees will support melee Warlocks. Cross classing is not expected but is supported.

Enlightened Spirit obviously has the aura blast for melees, what's the other tree that you think supports melee? It kind of looks like Soul Eater might not require you to use blasts like Tainted Scholar's "Direct damage boosting of Eldritch Blast". But not penalizing isn't the same as supporting...

I encourage anyone suggesting that Warlocks not be able to use any metamagics think about what that means for the larger class design. My sorcerer wouldn't know what to do with all his feat slots if metamagics were not an option (and saving throws didn't matter!) We may also make some more general, selectable feats for customizing Warlock (epic feats are more likely than heroic ones), but what feats are Warlocks expected to take, if not some metamagics? Similarly, this is one of the reasons we are likely to make Eldritch Blast get boosted by Evocation related feats - it lets you build your Warlock differently from other Warlocks, choosing to focus on that aspect.

From a game design & build variety stance, it's unfortunate to see suggestions for no metamagics or no saving throws at all on Eldritch Blast. Yes, we can see how all Warlocks might be more powerful or simpler without having those drawbacks. Every Warlock could deal full maximum damage all the time at every level without any build decisions or requirements to reach that maximum power. But that's not what DDO is about! If choosing a Fey patron means you worry more about your saving throws than Fiendish Warlock, who worry more about piercing damage resistance than Great Old Ones, who worry more about dealing with bosses because charm effects don't work on them... that's interesting and good gameplay before you even step into the game. That encourages variety in class builds and character designs. It's good for DDO if players argue about what Pact is best and worrying about the weakness of each, similarly for enhancement trees and similarly for Warlock vs. other classes.

I can't find the quote about "I'm disappointed about the death spells feedback... and what metamagics would a warlock take?"

From a game design stand point, Fighters get lots of feats: Do they pick an Improved Critical (100% Offense), or Imp Shield Bashing + AP in Vanguard... (80/20 Offense/defense). It's a complimentary choice. Wizards get feats, and slots, and can swap out spells at shrines for diversity. It's a non-punitive choice. Warlocks are like bards... each build choice is 100% in one direction with no synergy to fall back on.

So what feats would a Warlock want? Well, the Spell Focus: Evocation is the first obvious one as it supports the DC of your blast. And that's it. Entirely. It literally has no benefit to the rest of the Warlock's kit. And that feels bad. (At least a Sorc Savant's 2nd element still benefits from its other build choices)
You've said that blast isn't going to scale with BAB, so that rules out any reason to take Blinding Speed (or haste).
The Mental Toughness feats will add %crit chance, so that's a possibility... but then the realization that a level 12 bard takes IC:Piercing, and a rapier and gets 30% crit to their "basic attack", which you can achieve with 3 feats and level 28 gear, and that feels bad.
Oh, Fey pact gets Otto's disco ball, irresistible, and dark delirium... Perhaps they'd like SF:Enchant and Spell Pen feats... but even you pointed out and think of G.O.O. as "the enchantment pact" with Dominate, Create Thrall, and Mass Suggestion... that's just confusing.
And Fey gets sonic damage, I'll want Perform to enhance that... oh wait, It's still a cross-class skill, and I get 2+Int skill points. Am I expected to have 16 int for these builds? That feels bad.
You mentioned Death spells... Oh! G.O.O. has Phantasmal and PW:K... wait, that's an illusion and a conjuration spell... There's no pact that has any synergy to make me want to take SF:Necro feats for Wail, Finger, or Enervation. (Honest question, do you know how often Spellsingers use the Wail that's get added to their spell books? Max Spell Level 6, and no other reason to take Necro feats has made me always consider it just a mass enervate)
Adding to that point, given recent quest design (Derpa derp What's Dungeon Alert?), 525 SP (+80 from Magical training, "Possibly"), 3 spell slots, -3 DC, makes Wailing through Wheloon, Storm Horns or ToEE completely unfeasible, and the lack of spell slots make having a plan B to fall back on impossible.

Good game design gives an Obvious "Here's Plan A", with good choices for players designing their Plan Bs... There's nothing in this kit so far that synergizes with itself.

Put it this way... d6, light armor, no kit synergy, CC options no matter the build, feat-starved melee or gimped caster with 525 SP... how is this any different from playing a Bard?

[diodore]

The hobgoblin you are referring to I assume you mean from Feast or Famine. That's a bad way to make any dps comparison because that's just a player that buffs his character to the gills before engaging a single target in a controlled environment and has ducks in a row hot bar spamming cornering the dude. I would rather the question be directed to where would you like to see Warlocks in an uncontrolled environment compared to other classes.

Fine, but your question is unanswerable as posed.

I just mention Bruntsmash because there are numerous fine videos demonstrating sick dps on the poor guy. And this has turned out to be not such a terrible predictor of general build power at the moment.

Make it a solo run of EE CITW. I don't care. Have a suite of tests. The point is, as soon as the warlock makes her debut, this is one way she'll be praised (or lamented) for sure....

It would be interesting to know what the designers intend.

[Drakos]

Still reading along, a few excellent posts today, sorry I haven't had more time to reply individually to those posts yet.

I encourage more posts on Warlocks, especially by anyone who hasn't spoken up yet on any particular Warlock topics.

Ok, since you asked so nicely, here goes.

I have already said am in favor of alignment restrictions.

On spell points vs. unlimited casting; I would have to say I would prefer that you not implement using spell points. Like many others on this thread, I believe the Invocations are what sets the Warlock apart from other casters. I don't buy the "it's to better support Epic Destiny" line of reasoning. Many others have already pointed out that non-casters are able to utilize these ED's just fine, and they would even support Warlocks detter than your average caster. As for no time to design and implement allot of new spells/invocations, you can achieve a similar effect my borrowing non-spell based abilities already in the game and replicate many of the Warlock Invocations, as has been pointed out by others. You could even copy (and rename) spells but strip out the SP costs.

On starting ED sphere, I agree that the Primal sphere does seem wrong to me. I would put my voice in for Arcane.

On unique magic items; consider the source material, There are Causal of Eldritch Power, which add EB damage, and rods that allow the Warlocks to add Shape or Essence invocations they don't normally have to their EB. If you are looking for some form of unique item ala; Rune Arms or Orbs, how about Scepters? In PnP these would be equivalent to Maces that provide special benefit to a Warlock with one equipped. Any non-Warlock could use it, but not have access to the secondary effects.

Finally, the EB should be untyped damage.

All-in-all, I have been one of the players who have been calling for Warlocks for some time. I love the PnP class flavor and functionality. The current design, to me, is not a Warlock. Yes, they have the Eldritch Blast, but much of the flavor has been removed. I understand that your intent was to borrow from 5e but, at it's core, this game was derived from 3.5e, and that source should take presidence in design decisions. If you gave me the option today to go with the class as presented now, or wait another year for a class implemented that more closely replicates the 3.5e Warlock, I'd have to say wait a year and do it right, even though I have wanted this class for some time.

[Qhualor]

One thing I never commented on and reminded reading some of these posts is the unlimited casting. I think it would be something really unique about the class if balanced well. Not sure exactly how it could be done but with no sp that means balanced cool downs and/or number of uses per rest. If the spells had just cool downs than you could always have ammo to fight never running out. Sounds a little too OP to me. If it was just number of uses per rest than what's a Warlocks backup plan in long fights and long quests? Scrolls and wands? Maybe somehow combine the 2, possibly even regenerating uses like epic LOHS and Turns.

[Qhualor]

Fine, but your question is unanswerable as posed.

I just mention Bruntsmash because there are numerous fine videos demonstrating sick dps on the poor guy. And this has turned out to be not such a terrible predictor of general build power at the moment.

Make it a solo run of EE CITW. I don't care. Have a suite of tests. The point is, as soon as the warlock makes her debut, this is one way she'll be praised (or lamented) for sure....

It would be interesting to know what the designers intend.

Every class is compared to Paladins, Barbarians and still even Bards. There is a certain vocal portion of the forum community that has some followers that deem these cookie cutter builds as powerful spreading this kind of nonsense around. Rogues were even compared to barbarians and some of these vocal forum players tried to suggest making them more like fighters in those threads. We will start seeing the same thing again when we are able to test play Warlocks on Lama.

I'm not saying Warlocks shouldn't be powerful. I just had issue with your comparison. I'm a firm believer that it's better to test and compare in your typical questing environment rather than just using a calculator and beating on a dummy. You get better results that way.

[MrWindupBird]

Still reading along, a few excellent posts today, sorry I haven't had more time to reply individually to those posts yet.

I encourage more posts on Warlocks, especially by anyone who hasn't spoken up yet on any particular Warlock topics.

I'd prefer minimal alignment restrictions. I don't know the lore for that, but if clerics are free to be whatever alignment for their chosen deity, I don't see why warlocks shouldn't be extended the same courtesy. My concern is entirely about how builds work and change in DDO: alignment restriction will make re-speccing a warlock a nightmare, and creates a uniquely punitive case for which there really is no precedent (in DDO).

I'd also be wary of giving reflex/will/fort save vs eldritch blast based on feat choice. That is actually a pretty big wedge, and one you'll have to balance the rest of the feat-granted pluses and minuses against. I'd much rather have the ability to modify what save is required vs the blast, via enhancements. Just for reference, if you've never played a pure evoc sorc, it can be a complete exercise in frustration and futility in some content, even with a 70ish evocation DC- there's a reason most people spec into enchantment. It'll be pretty hard to balance the different Warlock pacts around different saves vs blast, if it makes some pacts useless in a chunk of content.

Oh, and please do add new spells. Buffs really shouldn't take that long to code, and some variety in spell selection will go a huge way towards making the class feel unique.

[dlsidhe]

...forgot about that.

Lorewise, Warlocks are charisma-driven, high-powered spellcasters. They have immense magical presence, and I always interpreted it as having an innate ability to essentially force magical items to work for them.

That said, +5 UMD at level 2 is arguably a bit much, given that they're a charisma-driven class with UMD as a class skill. However, +10 to UMD by level 20 is completely reasonable as - in my view - they should be able to UMD pretty much anything via sheer magical intimidation. The +1 UMD per 2 levels like the Artificer is perfectly fine; a level 4 Warlock will have a higher UMD score than pretty much any other character at that level without needing a full +5 anyway. Just for argument, without tomes:

+6 Base stat
+7 Skill
+2 (if +1 UMD/2 Levels)
+1 Charisma gear
+1 Runic gloves
==
17 UMD skill; with tomes or enhancement points in charisma a UMD skill of 19 is easily achieved, which means no-fail on all level one wands and scrolls.

However, to argue the other side, that means that the first real UMD benchmark is achievable by level 4 anyway, so giving +5 at level 2 isn't gamebreaking - the total bonus is +10 either way, and it's basically gravy to make the Warlock able to UMD anything without any gear swapping.

[diodore]

Every class is compared to Paladins, Barbarians and still even Bards. There is a certain vocal portion of the forum community that has some followers that deem these cookie cutter builds as powerful spreading this kind of nonsense around. Rogues were even compared to barbarians and some of these vocal forum players tried to suggest making them more like fighters in those threads. We will start seeing the same thing again when we are able to test play Warlocks on Lama.

I'm not saying Warlocks shouldn't be powerful. I just had issue with your comparison. I'm a firm believer that it's better to test and compare in your typical questing environment rather than just using a calculator and beating on a dummy. You get better results that way.

I recently read a very long thread about the issues wizards have with "red-named dps". There were a few contrarians with weak arguments; but many experienced players were agreement. Hell, that figher/barbarian Sev agreed.

I just want to know if warlocks will do better! If my wizard could take out Bruntsmash in even twice the time as a barbarian does now (which is just hilarious to watch) and have some blue bar to spare, I might feel well, like playing my wizard again.

It's not that that particular task is so important. It's just a good indicator in this case. And I really don't expect warlocks to suffer the same problem. Which is why I asked that question.

[Jetrule]

Since time is obviously an issue, and making new spells takes up time, here are some suggestions for abilities that could potentially be added to the Warlock spell list, and keep them from becoming a very poor version of a wizard or sorcerer. For some of these, renaming them would be a good idea, but that's not really an issue.

Name: "Heatwave"
From?: Various "Salamander" enemies.
Reasoning: This aura increases vulnerability to fire. Fiend Pact Warlocks rejoice!

Name: "Earthgrab"
From?: Any earth elemental; dwarf racial tree.
Reasoning: It renders the enemy helpless and deals small amounts of bludgeoning damage. There were two similar spells in the 3.5 Warlock spell list, I believe, but they weren't as good.

Name: "Shadow Manipulation"
From?: Shadowdancer ED
Reasoning: This charms an enemy, then kills them when it's duration runs out. That's a very Warlock-ish thing to do to an enemy.

Name: "Shadow Form"
From?: Shadowdancer ED
Reasoning: It's very much like a PM undead toggle, and the strength damage on-hit will be useful.

Name: "Diversion"
From?: Level 18 Ninja Spy Core Ability
Reasoning: Well, Warlocks can't teleport out of danger in DDO, but this is the next best thing.

Name: "Mind Blast"
From?: Any Mindflayer enemy.
Reasoning: This would be most appropriate for a Great Old One Pact warlock, but really, it's an AOE Stun!

Name: "Elemental Weapons"
From?: Artificer spell list.
Reasoning: Warlocks are going to be in melee a lot, might as well give them something to enhance it a bit.

Name: "Kukan-Do"
From?: Shintao Monk enhancement tree.
Reasoning: Remember a spell called "Eyebite"? In 5th edition it gave you the option of stunning an enemy from a distance via your eyes. Might want to rename it, though.

Heat wave seems like a good addition to infernal pacts E.B. I Like the idea.

Earth grab is a goodie because you can hold things immune to enchant spell or hold spells or even technically High S.R. opponents. I like thge Idea.

Shadow form.. A top end epic destiny ability is or should be pretty powerful. Maybe if for a short duration only.

Diversion..To me not warlocky Maybey a feypact thing but I am not sold...



Love Love the Mind blast Great addition to a Great old one some where some how. Would also like to see Great old ones have a way to damage wis. and cause insanity. A toggle blast enhancer, new spell or some thing that would ad the effects of the greatsword "Insanity"

I don't think most warlocks are going to mele alot. Except those using the damage aura E.B. for fey pact.

Kukan-Do..Not sure where it would fit in best. I think I would rather see a insanity effect or a nasty curse. Any way to put a shroud of the zombie curse on something? I think it would open up some neat options to be able to put that shroud on things. Very much a Voudan Curse but let it work on any living target even bosses though they may have to roll a 1 on save and get their S.R. bypassed!!

[XxJFGxX]

I recently read a very long thread about the issues wizards have with "red-named dps". There were a few contrarians with weak arguments; but many experienced players were agreement. Hell, that figher/barbarian Sev agreed.

I just want to know if warlocks will do better! If my wizard could take out Bruntsmash in even twice the time as a barbarian does now (which is just hilarious to watch) and have some blue bar to spare, I might feel well, like playing my wizard again.

It's not that that particular task is so important. It's just a good indicator in this case. And I really don't expect warlocks to suffer the same problem. Which is why I asked that question.

One main issue that I feel needs to be addressed concerning caster's lack of red-named dps as a whole is that casters don't have their critical damage multiplier anymore like they used to. Ever since it was removed, casters' dps, specifically against red-named mobs has dropped significantly.

[HatsuharuZ]

Last thing I have to say about warlocks...

Both my sorcerer and my evocation-specced cleric take the same exact feats. I'm afraid that my caster-specced warlock may end up doing the same thing.

[Krell]

Still reading along, a few excellent posts today, sorry I haven't had more time to reply individually to those posts yet.

I encourage more posts on Warlocks, especially by anyone who hasn't spoken up yet on any particular Warlock topics.

At a high level I'm looking for a different play experience, something that feels very different from other classes. Things like no spell points for primary attacks, new spells, new art.

[redoubt]

Warlock design draws from a variety of pen and paper editions, but primarily 3.5 and 5th edition. Unlike Sorcerers or Wizards, damage comes primarily through Eldritch Blast, rather than frequently casting damaging spells or SLAs. They choose a Pact at level 1 through a feat, which alters their Eldritch Blast and determines certain class feats that are granted as more Warlock levels are gained.

So the stated intent is that damage comes primarily from Eldritch Blast. In 30 pages there is:

- a lot of measuring of things that will get removed by the forum filter
- a lot of talk about alignment
- a lot of concern over the rest of the spell book
- very little talk about the EB. Why?

If EB is the primary method of damage, why is hardly anyone talking about it?
- is the proposed system horrible and so people want the other stuff to back it up?
- is the proposed system amazing and so we are moving on to the ancilliary stuff?

Like many others have said, if we are getting a new class, I ask that it be unique. We already have lots of casters. We also have melee casters who use magic to make their melee abilities better.

What if this one used things that normally improved melee to improve the spell casting? EB already activates based on your weapon attack. What if the devs really dug into this part? Instead of taking SF: evo, GSF: evo, ESF: evo, max, emp, quicken like every other caster, players picked a weapon style and build their caster that way? Basically a backwards Eldritch Knight. Instead of their skills in magic making their melee (ranged) combat better, their skills in melee (ranged) make their magic better. (It might be horrible and completely not warlock like, I don't know, I have non of those D&D books, I'm just brainstorming. If the concept is too wrong, might as well stop reading here. 8) ).

First, allow the weapon effects to have some bearing on the EB. Maybe even completely replace the force damage with the damage type from the weapon. If you use a paralyzing weapon, your EB can paralyze. If you use a shock weapon it does shock damage. If you use a force weapon, it does force damage. etc.

Two Handed Fighter
- THF line creates glancing blows and a chance for weapon effects to proc. Do this on the EB.
- Cleave - when the warlock cleaves, EB shoot out from around the warlock (pick how many, but maybe in half cardinal directions for 8 total; remember they still have to hit something.)

Two weapon fighter
- The off hand can send an additional EB, but in the same line as the mainhand would go.
- Maybe this character has a curse spewing weapon and a paralyzer and send curses and mez out in its EB.
- Maybe this character uses a fire and a cold weapon and the blasts coming from the character roughly alternate between EB of ice and fire.

SWF
- Faster EBs just like SWF goes faster

Ranged (bow)
- precise shot - EB skips the mob in between and only hits the target you selected
- imp precise shot - EB hits all the mobs in a row
- fires slow due to ranged rate of fire
- MANYSHOT EB!!!!

Improved crit would increase your crit range with the blasts if you hold the right weapon.
OC could increase EB damage on 19/20.
Instead of quicken, melee (ranged) alacrity would speed up your attacks.
Higher bab would mean more & faster EB attacks.

The different weapon styles would launch the eldritch blasts in unique ways. Honestly, the bow one would be most boring because it would look a lot like you are just shooting magic and we kinda do that now. But, a TWF might could send one EB with each weapon swing. One on the right swing, one of the left and a double shot on the spin around double swing move. Basically look at the current weapon animations and find could points in them to have the EB launch out from the weapons.

A warlock could actually move between physical and magical combat and be good at both.

Edit: this could also be a great chance to really turn the art department loose. Really hype up the weapon effects while the EB toggle is active. Push the weapons auras out further and make them more intense and then have them focus as the weapons swings and surge off the weapon, stretch out into a line and then ball back up again when hitting the target. When the EB is launched the aura could go away completely and then quickly fill back in.

For bow users the whole bow could glow with the aura and when the string is drawn, the aura slide from the ends of the bow to the hand grip and then follows the drawing hand back stretching out into a line of magic and then shooting out like an arrow, leaving the bow dead looking for a moment and the aura build back on the bow quickly and it repeats.

Again, just brainstorming, but I think there could be a lot of cool stuff done to make the class look and play differently than the existing ones.

[rehakp]

Hello first of all i like Warlock class comming in DDO. Even if that ends as fail and i have to farm 10 something / 10 warlock for completionist i still think its worth to try

Where i see little problem is i feel like whole class is a bit more backloaded even more than wizards and other DC casters are. I like pure classes and like multiclassing.
I know some classses must just be backloaded and some can be frontloaded (like fighters for example). But Warlocks seems a little too mutch singleclass backloaded thing for me.
Problem i see that almost everything is about his blasting ability and this ability scalling ist hard tied to classlevel and scalling goes up to class level 20.
Just imagine now you choose that class for multiclass .. why would you choose it ?
Proficiencies ? ... pff hardly
spell casting ? ... other casters beat him all the time here
Enhancements ? ... seems they are all about his blast .. not muth use for other classes

Well only interesting thing is the blast. And just put aside now if it would be OK, OP, or worthless after all finetuning tests etc.
Just pretend it will be worth to play it now. Almost every lvl you put out of warlock will hurt this ability alot. I can maybe imagine 18 Warlock / 2 paladin or something like that.
But i cant imagine who sane would build for example 5 Warlock/15 whatever. And yet wizards (another backloaded class) 5 Wizards/15 whatever are running all over Stormreach.

My suggestion is:
A.) Make blast scalling less dependant on class level and maybe more on enhancement trees.
or
B.) Give to some enhancement tree something really nice and worth to multiclass for and maybe not even warlock tied thing (like wizards T5 tensers for example)

[Drathsiddh]

Firstly, it would be helpful if all the bickering about alignment and what not stopped.Post the feedback and be done with it. To make a valid point, you do not need to criticize every other poster over here, you just need to be clear. The Devs will read your post and making a hundred such posts on the same topic will waste their time at best, preventing them from actually doing something.

Firstly, as far as I can see, there are about five, maybe seven people who don't want insta-kills. There are a few key arguments which are actually valid: the one on game-play style. I already is BORING using the same spells and the exact same routine. Mass Hold+Wail. Throw in a few Polar Rays or Meteor-Swarms to the guys who saved. Thats the life of every Sorc or Wiz. However, without Insta-kills, Warlocks don't seemso..... evil or whaterver.

Take a look at the past few classes. Monks were a smash hit. Why? They brought something new, something that DDO didn't ALREADY have, unarmed fighting, ki, attacks that need you to 'build up' sequences.
Druids were a smash hit. Why? They had new spells and shape-shifting, something DDO needed.
Artis were a smash hit. Why? They brought in repeating x-bows and rune-arms AND new spells, something DDO needed.
Favored Souls weren't a hit. Why? They were but a copy paste of clerics with double the sp.

Now I want Warlocks implemented as soon as possible, but all that seems to have been done is added a toggle which allows you to send EBs and the spell list of a bard. Yes, I am sure that this will all change when the Enhancement trees come out. Seriously, if you go to DDOwiki and look at the Barb class, without peeking at the enhancements, then it really is meh. So lets not get to raged about this yet, but the spell choices are pretty bad.

So please implement new spells. I recall someones post about allowing TWF, THF SWF and bows to EBs. That seems a good idea, rather than metas. Plus I don't understand how they will work with EBs, consuming SP on every attack? Isn't that, like, what we didn't want?

Think about it.

[songswrath]

Last thing I have to say about warlocks...

Both my sorcerer and my evocation-specced cleric take the same exact feats. I'm afraid that my caster-specced warlock may end up doing the same thing.

Why many of us feel warlocks should have more melee than casting or as E. blast basically is magic imbued melee/ranged even tho i hate pew pew there should be some pew pew love for them type of players too . Include debuffs ,self only buffs > unique or altered ones from other classes would be cool and not the same old same old. and on the tier 5 melee trees you have to put some thing to keep melee dps two thoughts are 1 add a renamed holy sword spell that whould be added to 5 lvl spells list. this would make is so you need a min of 13 warlock lvls. or the likes of Staff Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range with Quarterstaves. but not just with staffs open up to other types of weapons and fighting styles

As many have said in dif ways warlock class can be that new dif kind of play style magic backed melee. yah yah i hear you it been done before. to note good builds where this thought works well > a well known 16 sroc 2 monk 2 rog build or my own 15 arrrtie 3 wizzy 2 fav soul build come to mind 1st <that's one of the best builds i have done and i done tons **Tactical Detonation** {with a useable d/c even in ee's ty happer tree} +melee is a blast to play would love to see warlocks get a spell like this

[songswrath]

So please implement new spells. I recall someones post about allowing TWF, THF SWF and bows to EBs. That seems a good idea, rather than metas. Plus I don't understand how they will work with EBs, consuming SP on every attack? Isn't that, like, what we didn't want?

Think about it.

yes if any scaling it should scale with melee power not magic <i can see it getting way out of hand with magic it not to hard to get 400 spell power where avg joe is going to be at 250 . that said the two melee trees should have small boosts to melee power. Most new trees have this now and sure when old trees get redone they will too . What i don't want to see is trees forcing you into one style of play. Everyone has their own thing me i love the bigg f*** stick builds lol nothing like smacking mobs in the face after a long day at work >< .Also eb should have some type of limit how often it goes off like Vanguards' shield bash we don't need many shot eb kill it before it starts . So you can put in trees some where that you can upgrade how often it goes off< need be low fruit for guys that want to max one tree over the other{s}