Warlocks!

[Failedlegend]

[*]We'll probably strongly consider not tying Warlock to the Primal Sphere of Epic Destinies.

I think the issue is two-fold:

1. The Warlocks kind of fit in ALL the spheres.

2. Whichever Sphere you stick Locks in will basically mean they can't use the others as their Epic DCs will be tied to that Sphere...Frankly any DC caster has this same issue.

I'd say the easiest solution to issue to is to move the specific DC boosts from the Epic Destinies to the EPic Levels where it just grants a generic +1 DC to all classes

As for Issue 1 would it be possible to although warlocks to start in ANY sphere?

[*]We of course still want to add new spells to the game, including particular for Warlock's release.

Would it be easier to reskin existing spells than make entirely new ones? ie. Entangle -> Black Tentacles

[*]I'm a bit surprised at how often players have suggested that death spells aren't appropriate. Should we remove death spells from the general Warlock spell list?

I see no reason to remove them, in fact it would make sense if Warlocks had the largest spell list in DDO but only 2 spell slots, they dabble in a little bit of everything but can only utilize a little bit of that knowledge at any one time (since they've studied so much they can't memorize it all)

[*]Spell points are probably here to stay in some form, but we're aware that having some spell-point free abilities is important.

A lack of spell points would make using spellcastery EDs annoying...my Enlightened Spirit/KOTC/Divine Crusader will appreciate the Blue Bar.

[*]Details of alignment restrictions are something we may still discuss. If you have an opinion on this that you haven't expressed yet, do please chime in.

Honestly I'd rather there be no alignment restrictions even in 3rd edition there's several examples of Lawful Good characters who make pacts with even the most CE creatures for what to them seems like entirely LG reasons...and vise versa.

Especially since this is Eberron our "Iconic" Paladin class worships a LE Demi-god that wants to eradicate all fleshies, Hobgoblins are Civlizied, Halflings are Dinosaur Riding Barbarians, Drow are slightly less insane, Kobolds are Adorable and have a Union. Were supposed to defy normalcies it's why I love Eberron so much.

I guess you're just ignoring the fact that several players have shown interest in the fact that we want various types of viable melee warlocks, pure and multiclassed eh?

You know you can wield any weapon you want right whether you unarmed or wielding a 2-hander dealing 9d6 Force + 10d4 Pact Damage magnified by spellpower is great. You can do do in a PBAOE, a Cone or an Aura (I also assume the standard ranged blast and the chain lightning would in melee as well)

I for one plan to Make a "Mad Scientist" X-Bow Artificer that makes a pact with the old ones (aka Xorian Horrors) for some fun mixing of chain Lighting Eldritch Blast, RUne Arm Blasts and X-bow pew pewing.

That is of course assuming you still use your weapon when EB is activated...I really hope so otherwise all Locks will just be carrying "caster sticks" or "Caster stick"+orb

So, I have noticed that there is no healing so far in the spell list or anywhere else. But, you have been saying that healing will be added to the enhancement trees. Well, I had an idea for Enlightened Spirit, which is the ability to change your Eldritch Blast into a scaled healing spell. You would be able to heal anyone around you, probably quite quickly, in return for being incapable of dealing damage. Now, this may not fit into Enlightened Spirit, it's just an idea I had that seems fun.

Anyways, glad to hear that spells are in the list of things to do, since that was pretty much my only complaint!

Looking forward to the enhancement trees being released.

Well I know Varg mentioned something about abilites in the trees that use your eldritch blast so some sort of "Heal Blast" would be a pretty cool ability especially since locks can shift the shapes of their EB. I wonder if you could pick of the EB shape from each tree if you wanted or if it's a one per lock thing (either Tier 5 or Anti-req)

I don't like warlocks, I want something else, Why not new races

I don't like warlocks, I want something else, Why not new races

To you guys and everyone else saying this, their not going to just not do Warlocks now it's just wasting the devs time spamming stuff like this, I'd very much appreciate it if you guys focused your energies on trying to improve the class instead

Sylvan Elves
Mountain Dwarves/Duegar

We already have FOUR elven races and we already have dwarves, it would be a waste of dev time to add more (I come back to this later, read on) when they could spend like time adding unique races like:

Gnomes
Kobolds
Hobgoblins
Gnolls

Tieflings
Genasi
Aasimar
Pixies (Girlfriends request, but I would enjoy it if they were added)
Hengyokai
Dragonborne
Shardmind
Hamadryads
Revenants
Kenku
Half-Giants
etc.

and no I don't think any of these races are "Munchkin" the words most people use is "Interesting, Cool or Fun" and if they really are OP, the devs will just adjust them to compensate (just like I think kobolds should be adjusted to be not be completely useless if added)

That said back to "Subraces" I would love it if at Character creation you can choose your subrace which would have some effect on your racial enhancement tree...which furthermore I think we should just gain racial enhancements as we level up instead of having to sacrifice points from our class trees which are almost always better.

I am not your forum monkey if you look you can find I post in them so,I have no need or desire to see them again since they were completely and utterly ignored.

You mentioned specific threads/posts/polls that apparently support you, if you want to use them YOU have to hunt them down otherwise as far as were concerned they don't exist for the purposes of your argument.

[Drakos]

People asking for Warlocks is also relatively new compared to DDO - Gnomes, DRUIDS, Kalashtar, Kobold PCs and the blatantly OP Shapeshifter/Changeling and Outsider Races have all been asked for many many more times and for far longer!

Pardom me, how are Changelings OP. Especially in DDO where their main ability to look different would have NO effect on the game? Shifters aren't even OP since the number of times they can use their shifting ability is limited.

In fact, As I stated earlier...Most Warlock suggestions have been an addendum to getting the blatantly OP Outsider Races added as PCs in DDO!
I've never seen anyone ask to play a Human or Dwarf or Warforged or Elf Warlock but I've seen plenty of people asking to be able to play Tiefling Warlocks!

This has not been what I have observed in the forums.

It's Tieflings people wanted NOT Warlocks!

I'm one of those people you are trying to speak for and I disagree. I have asked for Warlocks many times, but never asked for Tieflings, which are not as OP as you are intimating. Would I object to Tieflings? Probably not! But I can easily live without them as well.

[Drakos]

Rogues and Artificers can get Skill Mastery on it as well in PnP. I think they should have the same benefit where Skill Mastery is involved: +1 bonus to all skills.

+10 UMD is too much. +5 with a 2-level splash is too much. I'm not saying that they should have *no* UMD perks. I'm saying that simply giving a large bonus is broken given that Warlocks are a cha-based class.

I don't disagree that the +10 over the life is too much, And a 2 level dip to get half of that is just insane. I would propose some value base on the class level like Class Level /3 round down. It would be a max of +6 and would require a massive dip to get any real value. Or maybe the +1 for two levels like the Arties get for crafting, but +10 at 20th seems excessive.

[Drakos]

Evard's Black Tentacles is a WIZARD Spell!

If Warlocks get it then it HAS to be in Wizard and Sorc lists too NOT special to Warlocks!

It wouldn't have to be. It would be nice, but then again it would be nice if Warlocks got something that the other classes didn't.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Just need XKCD to replace "on the internet" with "on the internet about Warlocks!" :-)

[Silverleafeon]

i really like that you consider bringing a new class to the game. i've read in this thread a few posts and think you should take your time, releasing the warlock when its polished, rather then when its basically playable.

when i started playing ddo i learnt, that this game is superior in character design and details, i've never seen a major-customization in character creation before and i love it! try out own ideas, combine stuff you've learnt etc. its a fun system! adding more options just makes it better. so its very welcome!

Aye.

if we could have enlarge and extend revamped, i'd be one of the players gladly take them. enlarge just doesn't really gets the 'yeah finally i got that'-feeling like other metamagics. maybe another effect like an additional projectile on ray/projectile spells (like scorching ray, magic missle, frost lance, etc) to bump it up to the other metamagic feats (maximize, empower, highten). (just an idea. i'd like to get more customizing with metamagics, but the 3 standard ones)

Interesting ideas.

at some point extend got pretty useless, since it was made to work on buff spells only. can we have the old extend back that can extend ALL spells? i really miss that and i don't know whats wrong with having offensive spells (like clouds, glitterdust, dancing spheres, firewalls, etc) being extended.
right now extend is pretty much dead, especially since level 1 buffs got a 5 minute duration on caster-level1 already!

Extend is pretty much dead, perhaps some favor touches for it like enlarge?
Maybe a +1% spell crit or some nonsense?

I think the issue is two-fold:


Especially since this is Eberron our "Iconic" Paladin class worships a LE Demi-god that wants to eradicate all fleshies, Hobgoblins are Civlizied, Halflings are Dinosaur Riding Barbarians, Drow are slightly less insane, Kobolds are Adorable and have a Union. Were supposed to defy normalcies it's why I love Eberron so much.

Lol, well said, thanks for the laugh and perspective.

Pardom me, how are Changelings OP. Especially in DDO where their main ability to look different would have NO effect on the game? Shifters aren't even OP since the number of times they can use their shifting ability is limited..

Pretend you are someone else and collect their end rewards?

[Drakos]

Pretend you are someone else and collect their end rewards?

Yeah, but it wouldn't work without some way to fool the DDO gods who control the loot system, they have True Sight and would see right through it.

[Silkenwise]

[FONT=Arial]Enlightened Spirit
Although the fiendish origins of some warlocks' powers can’t be denied, not all Warlocks embrace the darkness. Some turn toward the light. Such rare individuals are called Enlightened Spirits.


Notable Enhancements:
Eldritch Blast Shape: Point Blank Area of Effect: While toggled on, this deals damage around, scaling with your Eldritch Blast damage. This particular shape allows you to attack with melee or ranged weapons while damaging enemies around you.
Aura abilities that primarily buff allies around you
Mitigation
Pet/Summon/Charm support

We expect this tree to be popular with some cross-class melee builds.

I want to play a PDK Warlock Eldritch Knight Paladin SOOOOOO BAAAAD. CHA based melee machine, with high saves, some self healing, and tons of melee magic DPS.

[Rhysem]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Warlock melees were expected to be cross classed. Apologies for the confusion. Two of the trees will support melee Warlocks. Cross classing is not expected but is supported.

Unless the Warlock's PBAeE is a lot better than the other similar powers (ie: Castigation from DC), it will be sub-par and not worth pursuing.

[Failedlegend]

Unless the Warlock's PBAeE is a lot better than the other similar powers (ie: Castigation from DC), it will be sub-par and not worth pursuing.

ummm...Castigation is an EPIC ability that deals at MAX 25d6 damage every THREE seconds (after taking 1 min 15 secs to gain that many stacks), Eldritch Blast is a HEROIC ability that deals MAX 9D6 +10d4 (40/6 = 6.5 so let's say approx. 15D6) every time you swing/shoot your weapon and thats even before we see the enhancements the trees themselves can add (I highly suspect we will see various staus effects and CC abilities as secondary effects)

[Rhysem]

ummm...Castigation is an EPIC ability that deals at MAX 25d6 damage every THREE seconds, Eldritch Blast is a HEROIC ability that deals MAX 9D6 +10d4 (40/6 = 6.5 so let's say approx. 15D6) every time you swing/shoot your weapon and thats even before we see the enhancements the trees themselves can add (I highly suspect we will see various staus effects and CC abilities as secondary effects)

Given the speed, for example, swashbucklers swing, I wouldn't assume it is "every time you swing" -- the devs have described it as an aura and that you keep swinging for melee damage. Based on the engine so far I expect a Castigation like effect. Its possible it it won't suck, but it is worth keeping in mind.

[slarden]

People asking for Warlocks is also relatively new compared to DDO - Gnomes, DRUIDS, Kalashtar, Kobold PCs and the blatantly OP Shapeshifter/Changeling and Outsider Races have all been asked for many many more times and for far longer!

Warlock fits in nicely with 5th edition. DDO has all the classes in the 5E Player's Handbook except Warlock. Although the game is based on 3.5 it does make sense to try to add the only 5E class from the Player's Handbook not in DDO.From D&D WikiBase character classesThe four base classes presented in the 5th edition free-to-download Basic Rules are:Cleric (Clr)Fighter (Ftr)Rogue (Rog)Wizard (Wiz)The base classes presented in the 5th edition Player's Handbook include the above four plus the following:Barbarian (Bbn)Bard (Brd)Druid (Drd)Monk (Mnk)Paladin (Pal)Ranger (Rgr)Sorcerer (Sor)Warlock (Wck)

[Chi_Ryu]

I want to see that breakdown. Remember that at level 9 you can't use Greensteel or +2 Good Luck items/augment.

Charisma: 40
Start: 20 (Drow)
Levelup: 2
Tome: 2
Ship: 2
Enhancement: 2
Completionist: 2
Item: 6
Yugo: 2
Lasting Elixir: 2

UMD:
Ranks: 6 (Cross class)
Cha: 15
UMD Tome: 3
Ship: 1
Completionist: 2
Past life Artificer: 3
Skill Mastery (Martial EPL): 3
Good Luck: 1
Greater Heroism: 4 (Planar Gird)
Persuasion Item: 3 (5 if you have Titan Gloves)
Exceptional UMD Bonus (Big Top): 1
Spider cult mask: 1
Charisma Skills +2 (Unsupressed Pink & Green Ioun Stone): 2

That's potentially 47 - if you were that fortunate with loot, etc then you can even afford to spend just a single rank to unlock UMD.

[HatsuharuZ]

[*]We'll probably strongly consider not tying Warlock to the Primal Sphere of Epic Destinies.

I think that you should tie epic caster levels to epic class levels instead of spheres/EDs. It will promote more variable builds.

[*]Metamagics will surely be a topic of some discussion. "Desirable feats" for Warlock is also a likely topic of discussion, more broadly. Adding choice and diversity is a major goal. At the same time we want to make sure "caster" Warlocks aren't just scrambling for any useful feat to find. (We do like that there are serious discussions for Wizards/Sorcs about whether or not Maximize and Empower are both entirely necessary, and some of those characters may be best off without them.)

If you are going to keep Warlocks with a Bard's base SP, then I would say no to Empower and Maximize, and yes to increased benefit from spellpower. Right now, everyone who wants to do any damage casting in epic elite needs both of these feats, and they need to use them with (mostly) E.D. abilities. At least if one is a sorcerer or evocation FvS. Maximize and Empower both give stacking spellpower bonuses, which no other feat or metamagic feat gives in those quantities. There is literally nothing else to take.

As for the Quicken Metamagic feats, it's VERY useful when one needs to self-heal or use "Energy Burst" from the Draconic Incarnation ED. "Energy Burst" being one of the best damage-dealing tools in epic levels. What else is there that compares?

Also, with two (tentative) enhancement trees supporting melee combat for warlocks, and only Eldritch Blast and it's variants for damage, warlocks are going to need to go into melee combat very often. And to be useful in melee combat, Warlocks are going to need to fit in one or more combat style feats.

[*]We of course still want to add new spells to the game, including particular for Warlock's release.

I have some ideas about that, Varg. There exist in the game a few abilities that are either similar to what Warlocks use, or are otherwise appropriate. More details in my next post.

[*]I'm a bit surprised at how often players have suggested that death spells aren't appropriate. Should we remove death spells from the general Warlock spell list?

No idea. IIRC, the Warlock spell list in 3.5 has no insta-kill spells, but I don't mind you adding them.

[*]Spell points are probably here to stay in some form, but we're aware that having some spell-point free abilities is important.

Yay!

[*]Details of alignment restrictions are something we may still discuss. If you have an opinion on this that you haven't expressed yet, do please chime in.

People make pacts for lots of different reasons. One pact having an alignment restriction is a bit absurd to me. Either the whole class should be restricted to alignments, or not at all. I personally think that a non-evil Warlock is going to be a bit unlawful by nature, and have personal reasons for taking the pact in the first place. I would suggest just making Warlocks any non-lawful, however my reason is that I am sick and tired of seeing people splash monk, especially for melee builds.

[Ayseifn]

Some still-early thoughts based on feedback (can't really promise anything, should probably wait until the work week starts and all other designers can chip in)

• We'll probably strongly consider not tying Warlock to the Primal Sphere of Epic Destinies.
• Metamagics will surely be a topic of some discussion. "Desirable feats" for Warlock is also a likely topic of discussion, more broadly. Adding choice and diversity is a major goal. At the same time we want to make sure "caster" Warlocks aren't just scrambling for any useful feat to find. (We do like that there are serious discussions for Wizards/Sorcs about whether or not Maximize and Empower are both entirely necessary, and some of those characters may be best off without them.)
• We of course still want to add new spells to the game, including particular for Warlock's release.
• I'm a bit surprised at how often players have suggested that death spells aren't appropriate. Should we remove death spells from the general Warlock spell list?
• Spell points are probably here to stay in some form, but we're aware that having some spell-point free abilities is important.
• Details of alignment restrictions are something we may still discuss. If you have an opinion on this that you haven't expressed yet, do please chime in.

1: Good, what about just adding +1 caster level per 2 epic levels for all casters like someone else mentioned? We'll get to the +5 we have now when the level cap goes to 30 and see some small progression while levelling instead of the all at level 20 we have now.
2: Ideally on a caster Warlock I can see I'd like evo focus x2 for blasts, maybe spell pen x2 as well as another spell focus chain depending on pact/spell selection. Other feats like PL wizard and completionist are in the mix too as we as maybe the mental toughness ones, if melee is an option for a pure warlock then there's another 5+ heroic feats to consider. If max/empower work on blasts then they'll just be a feat tax here unless you do something to bridge the gap between having and not having them. Maybe give a lesser version of them in the trees or have them be less effective for warlocks.
3: Some illusion spells would be nice and could be re used when you do gnomes *hint hint*.
4: I like the death spells but worry about the DCs and the fact they get them a little earlier than wizards. Need to get the balance right here so it's not another Coup.
5: Great, sounds perfect.
6: Fine as is.

[Uska]

Uska, I kind of like that you don't like warlock because, when they come out and I TR my uber completionist into one, there will be one less warlock in korthos to bother me. I've never seen anyone so upset and annoyed over a new class being released in any game that I have ever played.

I'd just like to put in that I LOVE warlocks, and this old sourpuss isn't going to make me not want to play them.

Why single me out? I am not the only one who doesn't like them or how they are done.

[Sierim]

For the level 2 Fiendish pact spell, how about a reskinned Lesser Death Aura with fire damage instead of negative energy. Could call it "Hellish Rebuke."

[Uska]

Pardom me, how are Changelings OP. Especially in DDO where their main ability to look different would have NO effect on the game? Shifters aren't even OP since the number of times they can use their shifting ability is limited.


This has not been what I have observed in the forums.


I'm one of those people you are trying to speak for and I disagree. I have asked for Warlocks many times, but never asked for Tieflings, which are not as OP as you are intimating. Would I object to Tieflings? Probably not! But I can easily live without them as well.

I don't think they are OP and neither does he at least I don't think he does. I just think there many other better choices.

I agree that changelings add nothing really to the game since you could take any other race and the player could claim they were a changling

[Silverleafeon]

People make pacts for lots of different reasons. One pact having an alignment restriction is a bit absurd to me. Either the whole class should be restricted to alignments, or not at all. I personally think that a non-evil Warlock is going to be a bit unlawful by nature, and have personal reasons for taking the pact in the first place. I would suggest just making Warlocks any non-lawful, however my reason is that I am sick and tired of seeing people splash monk, especially for melee builds.

Excellent point.

Black Abbot
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Black Abbot

Type: Undead (List)

Race: Lich (List)

Monster Manual classification: Unknown

Alignment: Neutral Evil




This wanna be Demi-God make pact like agreements with LG, LE, CG, CE powerful creatures:

There is even a long quest list in the Crucible for their reason on making a pact with this NE Demi-God.

So, using your own Cannon Storyline, Warlock should probably be totally free of alignment restrictions.
But whatever...just give me cool mechanics and im happy.

[Uska]

Excellent point.

Black Abbot
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Black Abbot

Type: Undead (List)

Race: Lich (List)

Monster Manual classification: Unknown

Alignment: Neutral Evil




This wanna be Demi-God make pact like agreements with LG, LE, CG, CE powerful creatures:

There is even a long quest list in the Crucible for their reason on making a pact with this NE Demi-God.

So, using your own Cannon Storyline, Warlock should probably be totally free of alignment restrictions.
But whatever...just give me cool mechanics and im happy.

That's just it many people don't seem happy with the current mechanics. Even people who wanted warlocks aren't happy with how they are being done.


Disagree with alignment but that's not that important. Giving them a SP cost is a bigger error to small of a spell choice by that I means spell slots no glavie and a few other issues.